Ajay Juneja

# re: The Passion of the Christ -- Great Movie... but what does the Baby with the Devil towards the end of the movie symbolize?@ Saturday, February 28, 2004 12:33 AM

Ajay - check out this review.

http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/2004-02-29-1.html

Jason Mauss

# re: The Passion of the Christ -- Great Movie... but what does the Baby with the Devil towards the end of the movie symbolize?@ Saturday, February 28, 2004 1:17 AM

Thanks, very useful.

So the androygenous baby was a mockery of Christ's birth?


BTW, I truly do not think this movie is anti-semitic in any way, so all of you Jewish people out there should go see it too!

Ajay Juneja

# re: The Passion of the Christ -- Great Movie... but what does the Baby with the Devil towards the end of the movie symbolize?@ Saturday, February 28, 2004 4:21 AM

I think it is funny how groups have attacked this film before seeing it just as other groups did (without seeing) The Last Temptation of Christ. Regarding Last Temptation, yes, there were "bad" and "wrong" things in the film but the point that was so publicly attacked was so completely different than it was portrayed by those who attacked the movie, almost opposite, in fact. I honestly thing that Last Temptation won over a few people. It certainly wouldn't have made anyone stray from the flock, it made Jesus real, understandable, human (which he was, something that is usually ignored) for the first time. The Catholic Church and other others who fought against the Last Temptation did their congregations a great disservice.

I think The Passion of Christ will be the same. Those who see it will be moved but will see the "artistic license" moments as just that. Those who believe will come out feeling more confident in their beliefs, those who don't will come out moved but unchanged, those on the borderline may come out different beings than they went in.

I think that the untested faith is weak, a true faith can handle any test, a 2 hour film being the very least of them. Those who would fight such a thing are living in fear of their house of cards tumbling down.

Shannon J Hager

# re: The Passion of the Christ -- Great Movie... but what does the Baby with the Devil towards the end of the movie symbolize?@ Saturday, February 28, 2004 5:05 AM

...and one more useful post is pushed off the page. Off-topic posts to the main feed are bad enough, but this is the very last thing I want to read about.

I can't wait until people forget about this movie and start arguing over something interesting, like, say, ANYTHING.

David Bossert

# re: The Passion of the Christ -- Great Movie... but what does the Baby with the Devil towards the end of the movie symbolize?@ Saturday, February 28, 2004 5:10 AM

As an atheist, I really don't think a movie promoted by the catholic church is worth seeing.

Furthermore, I don't understand why a movie is so important for what people believe in. A lot of people know the book the movie is based on (ok, the 4 books the movie is based on), so why does a movie all of a sudden make you see the light? I don't see that. (or move you that much that you get a heartattack or faint, as some did).

Calling something anti-semitic is an excuse. Saying the wall in Israel is bad is already on the edge of being anti-semitic and the horrors of WW2 are about to be thrown in the equation. Nevertheless, I must say that far-right christians sometimes use the death of christ to bash the jews. It happened here in The Netherlands as well: an extremistic christian group said the holocaust was gods punishment for the jews for what they did to christ. And this is not a case on its own, heck, a lot of nazi's and jew-bashers even today use the bible to proof they're right.

I can understand some jewish groups are afraid this movie will be used by short-sighted christian extremists to bash the jews once more or at least talk about how bad jews were back then.

I live in a country were we have legal gay marrage and other things the US of A will cry foul about, and we over hear don't understand the hype about this movie. To me it illustrates how close the USA is to a fundamentalistic christian state. I hope you all realise that. To the ones who think that's a good thing: it's not. Nothing based on 'fundamentalism' is good.

But I hope this movie will for the far majority just that: a movie.

Frans Bouma

# re: The Passion of the Christ -- Great Movie... but what does the Baby with the Devil towards the end of the movie symbolize?@ Saturday, February 28, 2004 7:57 AM

Sometimes, it takes the smallest thing for us to really get it. My heart rejoices that there are other believers out there in the developer cyber world, they seem so few.

The group in the Netherlands is sort of right. It is prophecised that Israel will be punished for turning away from God. But this is only part of His plan to bring them back to him.

All this anti-semitic talk is sort of ironic, as it is prophecied that in the end days the ENTIRE world, that is every nation, will turn against Israel.

Any real Christian does not have any form of hate or such emotion toward a descendent of Israel. In fact, since recommiting my life to Christ, I have found a warm compassion for them that was before I was saved, was almost hate, not for the people, but as a race.

Theology is such a great topic of debate, but I agree, this probably isn't the best place to discuss it.

It is just a movie in this case, but it turns out to be a very powerful and moving movie on the very foundation of my faith. For without this willing sacrifice, I would not be able to approach God in worship and prayer.

So anyway, the only thing I do not like about keeping the mainfeed filtered is that I miss some very nice posts, like this one if it was not on there.

Adam Weigert

# re: The Passion of the Christ -- Great Movie... but what does the Baby with the Devil towards the end of the movie symbolize?@ Saturday, February 28, 2004 7:49 PM

Remember, Adam, that anti-Israel != anti-Semitic. Either way, I thought it was terrible how much people were worried that this film would re-ignite millenia-old hatred on Jews. I don't think any Scots killed any English people after watching Braveheart.

Gozer

# re: The Passion of the Christ -- Great Movie... but what does the Baby with the Devil towards the end of the movie symbolize?@ Saturday, February 28, 2004 11:49 PM

You've missed the whole point,truth has come into darkness and has given us light (Jesus as our saviour) just like Pontious Piolot...those who want to know the truth will hear it and those who don't, won't be able to know the truth when it stands right in front of them. They will be concerned with their own affairs. I understand when Jesus says, "Father forgive them for they do not know what they do." I should have been the one on the cross, not him, I put him there, we all did. But I am not perfect like He was and therefore couldn't be on that cross. Only He who ressurected Himself from the dead, had the authority to conqueer death and darkness and it is by grace we have been saved, not by works so no one can boast. It is the gift of God. (Eph.2:8-9) I can not fathom that love...I love Him because He first loved me...but what did I do to deserve His unconditional love and sacrifice...all I have is my cross to pick up and to follow Him with my life. In that I live in freedom and it is peace that this world could never offer, it is peace that is only given by God and surpasses all understanding. Thank you Jesus for loving me that much! Thank you Jesus for loving all of us that much! I pray that many would open their ears and hearts to hear the truth as the Truth has once again revealed Himself to a nation of people that are so not deserving. There will come a day when justice will be done and His grace will be no more. Please don't let it be you that has to face God alone, without Jesus. Please don't watch him die and not be affected by the love He gave us. It would be a great travesty to see a God who loves you and wants to give you restoration by Truth and Life, purpose and
meaning being thrown away. Because He loves you so much, He is gonna let you choose what you want to do with your life; giving it to the one who loves you or the one who hates you and will use you so you will be eternally lost without God. What are you going to do with Truth?

Kristy

# re: The Passion of the Christ -- Great Movie... but what does the Baby with the Devil towards the end of the movie symbolize?@ Saturday, March 27, 2004 12:49 AM

THE UNBEARABLE REALITY OF LOVE: THE PASSION OF THE CHRIST

In this film we see with unbearable clarity how Jesus descended into the personal Hell each of us carries around - and purged it clean.

By John Zmirak



The movie's end was stark and uncompromising. After Jesus breathed His last upon the cross, thunder and lightning split the sky as if the earth were enraged by Abel's blood. An earthquake shook the hill of Golgotha, scattering the haughty Roman soldiers like a pack of cowards; it upended furniture in the palace of Pontius Pilate, reminding the bureaucrat of blood he could never wash away; it split the altar of the Temple in two, leaving Caiaphas and his fellow Sadducees terrified, their smugness shattered; and it drove Satan in the depths of Hell to despair, to look up from the white volcanic cone where he paced alone, and scream. Then, deep inside the tomb where Jesus' nearly skinned cadaver lay, a ray of light appeared. The dead man awoke, healed of stripes and scars, and started for a moment into the light. Then the screen went black. The torture of Christ had gone on for most of two hours. The resurrection lasted five seconds. If you turned your head you missed it. As I left, I couldn't suppress the thought, "Such a bloody religion. I wish I were a Buddhist..."

The soul-crushing cruelty of the Roman guards dominates the action.
We walked out of the Evangelical church which screened The Passion of the Christ in a solemn silence; priests and monsignors, monks and nuns, pastors and their wives. No chatter, no buzz, no "word of mouth." We were all too stunned. It was almost as if we'd seen a Filipino Passion Play, during which a pious volunteer is actually crucified. (Relax, he isn't killed.) I was numb long before the movie's end—in fact, I'd "checked out" during the flogging sequences. The initial torture ordered by Pilate was depicted in real time—all forty lashes—and imposed by sadistic Roman soldiers who "got off" as Jesus' blood sprayed their faces. This flaying reduced His body and face to an unrecognizable ruin of gore. My sensibilities overloaded—as they had during "Saving Private Ryan"—and I felt myself switch off, shut down, withdraw.

I left the present tense of the story, and started to notice the many artsy touches throughout this beautifully rendered film: the visual references to landscapes and paintings of Christ by Caravaggio, Rembrandt and Rouault—but most of all to Hieronymous Bosch. The better part of the film could pass for an animation of Bosch's grotesque landscapes and Passion pictures. The Middle Eastern music reminded me of the profound melancholy of Maronite liturgical chant, and ancient Melkite hymns. The uniformly exquisite acting brought to life the figures of Mary, St. John, the Magdalene and Judas Iscariot more vividly than I'd seen in any New Testament film.

But the grim, unrelenting violence continued—and by this time it was pretty much wasted on me; it had no more impact. To quote This is Spinal Tap, the amplifier had already "gone to 11." I yearned for more of the flashbacks depicting Jesus' sermons and benedictions. There were some, interspersed throughout, but not enough to remind us who this man was or why we should force ourselves towatch His slow destruction. I looked in vain for the scenes of scandal, where Jesus denounced the merciless Pharisees and trashed the moneychangers' booths, or flung the gauntlet of His divinity in the face of the audience—which would have explained the implacable hatred He stirred in Caiaphas and the Sanhedrin. If you knew nothing else of Jesus' story than the film conveyed, you would be puzzled as to why so many angry bearded men were stirred up to crucify this gentle soul.

We walked out in a solemn silence; No chatter, no buzz, no “word of mouth”. We were all too stunned.
It is here that the charge of anti-Semitism finds a niche into which it can slither and hide. Some defensive Jewish viewers have suggested that Gibson left the Sadducees' motives unexplained because he attributes bloodlust and hatefulness to Jews as a race or a religion. There is nothing in the film, or Gibson's expressed beliefs, to suggest such a thing; however reluctant Pilate seems to crucify Jesus, however eager are Caiaphas and his knot of supporters, the soul-crushing cruelty of the Roman guards who are torturing for fun, not out of any religious conviction, dominates the action. Their brutality leaves the crowd of Jewish onlookers (many of whom weep as Jesus carries his cross) in the blood-soaked dust.

The movie is utterly orthodox in attributing Jesus' death to the sins of all men—a point made in its very first sequence, a brilliant exchange between Jesus on Gethsemane and a skulking, beautiful Satan. Indeed, the overpowering sense of personal responsibility for Jesus' death which this film conveys makes you wish you could find a scapegoat, someone on whom to blame this torture other than yourself. You might find yourself wishing that the film presented "perfidious Jews," or tyrannous Romans, or a monstrous Judas figure, as an escape valve for your guilt. But that would defeat its purpose entirely, and Gibson is too much of an artist, and too solidly faithful, to allow it.

The film's exclusive emphasis on Jesus' final meekness, going as a "lamb to the slaughter," did disappoint me. I found myself wishing the movie had included more of the things that Jesus said throughout the New Testament which rankled His listeners—and to be candid, rankle me, making me always reluctant to read the central document of my own religion. (Yes, I'm one of those Catholics whom Evangelicals rightly mock because we don't enjoy reading the Bible.)

The prophetic utterances, "So the last will be first, and the first last," the outrageous demands, "Sell all you have and give it to the poor," the bizarre advice, "Turn the other cheek," and finally the many statements which seem humanly haughty and obnoxious such as, "He who loves father and mother more than me is not worthy of me." Whenever I read these passages, I must confess, my reaction is annoyance, even anger. I find myself thinking: "This guy had better be God. Or else he's a self-aggrandizing nutcase."

While I do believe in His divinity—and have consequently spent the past 25 years as a pro-life activist and Catholic apologist—this doesn't quite neutralize the queasy feeling in my gut. On a primal level, I can understand all too well the crowds who turned on Christ—a point driven home by the Palm Sunday liturgy, in which the congregation plays their part, shouting "Give us Barabbas!" For this reason, I've never been able to manage the spiritual feat encouraged by theologians such as Robert Hugh Benson, who urges us in his profound book of that name to cultivate The Friendship of Christ. Through grace, it's possible to love Jesus. (In fact, one's eternal destiny depends on it.) But He's sometimes a hard guy to like. For film-goers to truly appreciate their personal implication in the death of Christ, I think it would be valuable to present those aspects of His message and person which really would tempt them, like the Jerusalem mob, to turn on Him.

It is not guilt, but forgiveness, which will pour from the cross and descend through the ages.
What turns us back to Christ? The film is rich with suggestions, with moving moments that demonstrate how Jesus is indeed the face of a loving God turned towards man. Gibson leaves out any flashbacks to Jesus' miracles—the very proofs of His divine authority, as He frequently asserted. No loaves and fishes multiply, no Lazarus rises, no blind men see. Instead, the wonders the film presents are more impressive—they amaze us with Jesus' power and willingness to forgive. We see Him rescue Mary Magdalene from a crowd of righteous Pharisees—who all too eagerly seek to enforce Mosaic law by stoning her. Wracked with torture which we share, crushed by mockery, and tempted to despair—He turns to Dismas, the penitent thief, and promises him, "This day you will be with me in my kingdom." And most astonishingly, He turns to the gloating Caiaphas, who taunts Him from the foot of the cross (with Satan lurking behind him, supportively), and looks directly at him as He delivers his final absolution: "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." This phrase utterly negates Caiaphas' hasty, callous curse, "Let his blood be upon us, and upon our children." (This controversial biblical statement reportedly made the final cut, but was not subtitled). Jesus refutes him, with divine authority; it is not guilt, but forgiveness, which will pour from the cross and descend through the ages.

It is here that Jesus sets Himself apart from Jewish prophets whom He resembled, from mythological gods who died like Dionysius only to rise with the grapes each season, from warrior kings who fought for justice. As the eminent French critic Renè Girard observes in his works on the figure of "the scapegoat" through millennia of human history, Jesus undercuts and in fact inverts the plans of those who would destroy Him, who consider it expedient "that one man should die for the sake of a nation." Had Jesus died with a curse on His lips, with imprecations against the Pharisees and His faithless followers, his sacrifice would have been meaningless—a political martyrdom, which ended in futility. (Too many false Messiahs died in this very way; the Jews who followed one of them and rebelled against the Romans circa A.D. 70 would kill themselves, down to the last woman and child, in the senseless self-slaughter that followed Masada.) The stories of Jesus' resurrection would likely not have been believed, since He would have proven himself to be just another man.

The most wondrous miracle Jesus performed throughout His life—which converts one of the Romans who crucified Him, on the spot—was His forgiveness, freely bestowed, in the midst of hideous suffering, on His tormentors. Such courage and generosity are literally superhuman—yet they answer to man's deepest need, to the darkest squalid corner in each of our hearts which we "know" is irredeemable, which we yearn to bring out into air and light, and heal. In this film we see with unbearable clarity how Jesus descended into the personal Hell each of us carries around, and purged it clean.

JJ Janus

# re: The Passion of the Christ -- Great Movie... but what does the Baby with the Devil towards the end of the movie symbolize?@ Thursday, April 01, 2004 7:32 AM

i think this movie is anti-atheistic and it has turned the atheists to god

me

# re: The Passion of the Christ -- Great Movie... but what does the Baby with the Devil towards the end of the movie symbolize?@ Thursday, April 01, 2004 7:32 AM

were all friends here

me

# re: The Passion of the Christ -- Great Movie... but what does the Baby with the Devil towards the end of the movie symbolize?@ Saturday, April 03, 2004 4:16 PM

I think that the Devil was trying to make a statement. Our pastor said that the devil was trying to show God that he could have a son too.

Brian

# re: The Passion of the Christ -- Great Movie... but what does the Baby with the Devil towards the end of the movie symbolize?@ Monday, April 05, 2004 7:03 PM

But what about the ugly baby?

"Again," said Gibson, "it's evil distorting what's good. What is more tender and beautiful than a mother and a child? So the Devil takes that and distorts it just a little bit. Instead of a normal mother and child you have an androgynous figure holding a 40-year-old 'baby' with hair on his back. It is weird, it is shocking, it's almost too much—just like turning Jesus over to continue scourging him on his chest is shocking and almost too much, which is the exact moment when this appearance of the Devil and the baby takes place."

Copyright © 2004 Christianity Today. Click for reprint information.

Mike

# re: The Passion of the Christ -- Great Movie... but what does the Baby with the Devil towards the end of the movie symbolize?@ Saturday, April 10, 2004 5:19 AM

The Baby means...

Satan from the begining to the end of the movie is all about discouraging Jesus to go thru with GOD's will. By fullfiling His Fathers will he will conquer Satan(who has the power of death)Satan starts of the movie in the Garden telling Jesus that no man can do what Jesus is goin to do. Satan tells Jesus don't bother , that it is too heavy a burden. When Jesus is in the middle of being scourged He is facing the brutality of the world, "The world hates me", as he says many times. Satan is holding the child Anti-christ. Satan is saying that even though Jesus is saving souls by suffering now, He will never win because after Jesus will die the devil will continue His plan to lead men away from God. Satan was trying to discourage Jesus by doing that. That is what I think Mel had in mind on that. Peace & God Bless

Michael Anthony

# re: The Passion of the Christ -- Great Movie... but what does the Baby with the Devil towards the end of the movie symbolize?@ Saturday, April 10, 2004 5:58 AM

I watched this great movie last night (Good Friday). My heart went out to our Holy Mother, her suffering must've been enormous, as any mother would tell you, your heart tears when your child is in pain. The moments Jesus spend with his mother were so tender, beautiful and showed us the strong bond between them. Thank you Mel Gibson and everyone involved. On the way home, I said a prayer for al those you have denounced the Lord as their saviour, and wondered how they'd feel watching this movie and knowing that they have denounced his sacrifice, but then He would've forgiven them and took back into his flock. I pray that they go back and learn more about the truth of this man, for he is The Truth, The Way and the Redemtion of mankind. With all the hate, violence and terrorism currently gripping the world Jesus's love and message are more relevant and needed than ever. God's peace and blessings to you all.

nadia porter

# re: The Passion of the Christ -- Great Movie... but what does the Baby with the Devil towards the end of the movie symbolize?@ Sunday, April 11, 2004 1:13 AM

i think the devil will rule us and we will all go to hell i want to go to hell. let satan live!!!!

jhon P

# re: The Passion of the Christ -- Great Movie... but what does the Baby with the Devil towards the end of the movie symbolize?@ Sunday, April 18, 2004 8:11 PM

to answer the question of the baby satan is holding. My opinion is that the baby is symbolic of the world which he rules on earth. the reason i guess they chose a baby is that if u think about it a child when born is pure and innocent like the way jesus wants us to be. as u see the baby that satan is holding looks old and evil that is his baby the corruption of the world.

justin

# re: The Passion of the Christ -- Great Movie... but what does the Baby with the Devil towards the end of the movie symbolize?@ Tuesday, April 20, 2004 11:24 AM

Am I the only one who hated this movie?

To tell the truth, I found The Last Temptation of Christ and even Jesus Christ Superstar to be more convincing accounts of what is supposed to have happened at the time.

The way Judas was portrayed as a total loser (for example) was too much. Dropping his coins, then bending down to pick them up, the sores on his lips (don't know if they were supposed to be from kissing Jesus or rubbing them against a wall) was just a pathetic attempt to demonize him yet again.

This movie didn't stir a single emotion in me, whereas Jesus Christ Superstar and Last Temptation did. And the public response to this one made me lose a lot of respect for christians. I still respect christianity, but now I just think that these self-proclaimed "christians" aren't really that, but cowards on a guilt trip. Which pretty much sums up my opinion of the film.

Nietzsche may have had christianity wrong, but he sure as hell had the christians right.

Hordak

# re: The Passion of the Christ -- Great Movie... but what does the Baby with the Devil towards the end of the movie symbolize?@ Thursday, May 27, 2004 7:48 PM

the anti-christ

al

# re: The Passion of the Christ -- Great Movie... but what does the Baby with the Devil towards the end of the movie symbolize?@ Friday, May 28, 2004 11:00 AM

I believe the baby that satan was holding meant. I have my father where is yours in time of need.

Yolanda Charles

# re: The Passion of the Christ -- Great Movie... but what does the Baby with the Devil towards the end of the movie symbolize?@ Friday, June 25, 2004 8:30 PM

The movie was brutal, too much blood. Mel Gibson went too far with the blood scenes. I don't understand the point, what did Christ change by dying on the cross, christians say that my sins will be forgiven. I'm confused, why is that my sins have to be forgiven? what's the purpose? I didn't do nothing wrong, why should anyone die, and especially in such a horror way, just so I can be forgiven, for what? I think Satan had nothing to do with this, God made the plan, Jesus only completed it. What I hate the most is that people hate Judas because he betrayed Jesus, it was God's plan, Judas was only like a marionett on the strings. However, if there is a God in this World, this story would've never happened, because a real God would have never watched his own son beeing tormented, crucified and killed. And if God really exists then I would rather be in hell with Satan, then with a cold hearted God, who only loves to see others while they suffer.

I would agree to the last comment about the little baby in Satan's hand.

Dracula

# re: The Passion of the Christ -- Great Movie... but what does the Baby with the Devil towards the end of the movie symbolize?@ Monday, July 05, 2004 1:56 AM

afdter watching the film im was touched,the night i seemed restless not one moment of sleep i gained. it was as if light had shone on me. i could actually feel his pain. my hands were throbbing as were my feet. i wept for a good 5 minutes. then i prayed i asked the lord to make it rain to no avail.....woken up later in thhe evening by showers,,,,it had never rained like that in my town before. my faith has been rekindled and i thank this film for that. i have never experienced anything like i did that night i watched passion of the christ. i swear these words are true.believe ......................

nicolas v

# re: The Passion of the Christ -- Great Movie... but what does the Baby with the Devil towards the end of the movie symbolize?@ Thursday, July 26, 2007 6:25 AM

let me watch this movie

jairols