brady gaster

yadnb

the student becomes the teacher

So, Robert has once again posited an idea that, for some reason or another, hasn't recahed the mark with many. Go look at the comments if you don't believe me on this one, as they're all either (A) slamming Robert (as in, asking for a Robert-less main feed) or (B) totally missing the point of Robert's whole discussion.

First of all, i'm going to do what Robert never does - openly name names. Robert rocks. Do you remember when you were a kid on the playground and you were picked on by a bully? And remember how when you told your mom about it, she said “don't worry, they're just jealous.” We can see this pattern evolving all around us. Just look at how much Sun Microsystems and IBM loathe Mr. Gates and Microsoft. Why? Because they're jealous.

So here it is, for all the naysayers out there who continually bash Robert. You, my colleagues, are simply jealous of him. Because he has an MVP and you don't. Because he has his own company and you don't. Because he's writing software in his way and you aren't. Because he's doing it all - every single step of the way - his way. And, because he's doing it all at the ripe young age of pre-25.

And that jealousy, my colleagues, is why he is continually bashed by everyone. He is producing.

So for starters, let me say this - take notice of him and listen to what he has to say. Don't bash him because he talks a lot. He has good things to say, and if you'd all listen, you might pick up on that fact.

Now, on the article. Sure, he may be marketing his product in some roundabout way. If you had a product, wouldn't you market it? Now that that's outta the way, i'll continue (now that you bashers have realized you'd do the same thing if you were in his shoes).

His article posits a wonderful idea - make it easy for even the most skilled users to facilitate. Make it simple. Make it small, and make sure its flexible. Bang it out in such a way that it can be used by anyone easily, that it can be extended by anyone using proven techniques, and make sure you get it out there. Robert has an awesome, awesome idea. His essay is something we should all take notice of. It posits a wonderful series of methodologies - make sure it's easy, make sure it does what it does as well as can be, and never quit making it easier to use, no matter how totally wacky the internal architecture has to be to make that a reality.

i wish all developers could be like this, could share this vision. .NET has made it really easy for us to help one another out via reusable code, and Robert is a shining example of how one developer - or one good leader - can use .NET to make tools that make developers' lives easier. His vision, his motiviation, and his courage to do it his own way make him a shining example of what we should all be -

Energetic developers who keep pushing our own limitations to make our colleagues' lives easier.

Posted: Nov 20 2003, 09:20 AM by tatochip | with 24 comment(s)

Comments

Paul Wilson said:

I'm a Robert naysayer, but I am an MVP, I do have my own "company", I am writing software my way, and I am very successful. Oh, and I also was pulled out of school one day a week for a "bright and gifted" program, etc. So I don't think I'm jealous at all. I am bored to death of his endless nothingness, and I am very well aware that there are many people that no longer subscribe to the main feed due to him and one or two others that have monopolized it. I've been told this by more than a few people, and I've seen others note the same thing. So while I'm not jealous, I am irritated that his ego is costing a lot of us our occasional readers, since like it or not most people won't subscribe to all the individual feeds. I am glad to see someone doing well at his ripe young age, but his immaturity shows, which would be OK in a different venue.
# November 20, 2003 9:32 AM

Frans Bouma said:

I'm a Robert naysayer, no MVP, B.sc in CS, have my own company, write my software my way and am very successful and I full agree with Paul Wilson.

Robert is a nice guy, he just has to learn that other people might think differently for reasons he might not grasp today but perhaps tomorrow.
# November 20, 2003 9:50 AM

brady gaster said:

i'm not an mvp, i did have my own comapny, and i'm a wildly succesful developer, author, and teacher. and i have had the pleasure - and displeasure at times - of working with robert.

as in, i shared an office and responsibilities with the kid.

therein, i can understand some of your points of view. he talks a lot. sometimes i think he talks about things no one else gives a hoot about. and sure, he's young.

but here's what I did. instead of grumbling under mmy breath about how he was this or that, i helped him. i pinned him against the wall a few times (not physically, of course) and made him defend his points of view. i made him tell me why X would work or be a good idea. and i made him think.

that's why i kind of consider myself a mentor to him in some ways. if you have such a problem with what he says or how he says it, how about challenging him instead of putting him down? how about making him defend himself instead of basically ripping him a new one every chance you get?

if you don't like what he says, KEEP SCROLLING if you can't think of a more positivie way to argue your own points against his. that's what I DID when we worked together. he was all over the place. he couldn't concentrate on anything. now he has a series of awesome products i'm considering purchasing for a project i'm working on. i work with him in developing some of these, because i like and support his position on app dev.

and, i feel like he has a lot to teach us. sometimes we old dogs get jaded, and we need a kid like robert to remind us how much fun we can have doing this.

and for a final point, if he's such a bad guy, if he's so this or that, why is microsoft paying him so much attention, giving him so many props, and supporting everything he's doing? why did LonghornBlogs.com get a million hits it's first month?

and finally, how many of us can stake a claim like that?
# November 20, 2003 10:03 AM

Frans Bouma said:

Oh, and about the article: every CS student knows how to design software. Every CS graduate CAN design software and knows a variety of methodologies to do so. One key part of all these methodologies is simplicity: divide and conquer, by dividing the seemingly complex system into simpler non-complex subsystems. How? If you don't know how, you should have paid more attention during those boring classes back in those days you paid regular visits to that institute called University.

You see Brady, respect is not something that comes with a pack of sugar. It has got to be earned. If someone cookes up some methodology to design software based on own experiences, that's great. However most of the time it lacks serious insights and what's more: they're reruns of old methods known by man for a hell of a long time. Respect is not earned by telling the world how cool you are, what you know or what you can. Respect is earned by ventilating visions based on solid reasoning which can contribute something to the world OR/AND work people have done for others, so others can benefit of that work.

It has nothing to do with jealousy, you can trust me on that, because Robert has nothing I can possibly be jealous about. It's the attitude of "My opinion is fact". He wrote literaly: "Rob Howard rocks", and argues I was wrong in the sp debate. That's his choice, no problem with that, but there was no reasoning, just unbased opinions no-one can use. And how should I then respect that? I respect Rob Howard, because he based his POV on reasoning and facts and corrected his first POV. That's something that should be rewarded with respect, not just some venting of opinions based on nothing else than gutt-feelings or articles about what you know.
# November 20, 2003 10:05 AM

Fabrice said:

Maybe Robert has some interesting things to say, but I don't read them because it just appears as marketing to me.
When I see so many references to THE product, THE company and THE web sites, I do nothing but skip the post. And the multitude of similar posts tagged Robert in my head as the guy who's marketing on his weblog.

I don't say I wouldn't do a bit of marketing on my own weblog, but I know where to stop.

Also, I don't read webblogs depending on the age of the writer or his/her medals (read MVP, MCP, MCAD, etc.). See, no risk I get jealous.
# November 20, 2003 10:19 AM

Frans Bouma said:

"and, i feel like he has a lot to teach us. sometimes we old dogs get jaded, and we need a kid like robert to remind us how much fun we can have doing this."
What a weird remark. Don't you love what you do, Brady? I learned one thing during the past 10 years I'm now a professional developer: young developers have a lot to learn, and 3 things in particular: SEE, LEARN and THINK. That's 3 times silent activity. Most young developers forget these, or use THINK to think they're already at the top. They're not. Far from it. That's ok, IF the young developer realizes that. If not, too bad for yet another wasted developer's mind.

I might sound arrogant, but there is absolutely nothing Robert can teach me when it comes to software development. That's ok, I do this for a loooong time on a high level. However what annoys me is that critizing Robert McLaws is now based on jealousy, according to you. Come again?

"and for a final point, if he's such a bad guy, if he's so this or that, why is microsoft paying him so much attention, giving him so many props, and supporting everything he's doing? why did LonghornBlogs.com get a million hits it's first month? "
I don't know why Microsoft pays so many attention to him and it beats me why a blogsite about an os that's 2.5 years away gets a million hits per month. I don't know however what 'many attention' means here. I hope for him MS pays him a lot more attention but why should I care? Because I'm jealous or something? You know better than that. As soon as more people in the .NET world know McLaws than they know Bouma, I start worrying.
# November 20, 2003 10:25 AM

brady gaster said:

Franz, you've just exemplified one of the most famous of all the "old dog" statements -

"there is absolutely nothing Robert can teach me when it comes to software development"

yeah. right. whatever. so you mean to tell me that robert has NOTHING in his bag of tricks that you've NOT already done? PUH-LEEZ. every developer in the world has something that every other developer can use. no one developer "HAS DONE IT ALL."

and for the record - yes, i love my career. Robert reminded me how much fun it could be after a few months of being relatively jaded and incredibly overworked.

his enthusiasm is addictive.
# November 20, 2003 10:47 AM

Paul Gielens said:

Another Robert naysayer, far from being MVP, B.sc in CS, have my own company, write my software partly my way and all that at the age of 25. Robert is ventilating his thoughts and by doing so he's volunteering for feedback. I’m way to young and inexperienced to level up with Paul or Frans and the main difference between me and Robert is that I’m not forcing myself to do so. This is exactly what irritates people about Robert, him forcing his way in.
# November 20, 2003 10:56 AM

Frans Bouma said:

"yeah. right. whatever. so you mean to tell me that robert has NOTHING in his bag of tricks that you've NOT already done? PUH-LEEZ. every developer in the world has something that every other developer can use. no one developer "HAS DONE IT ALL." "

You confuse knowledge with wisdom, my friend. Tricks are knowledge, wisdom is what matters, the WHY, not the HOW.

Tricks you can learn from books, websites, talks with friends. The wisdom about what drives those tricks is learned by thinking. Now, Robert might know some tricks I don't know. Like you probably will know some tricks I don't know. Totally irrelevant, since google gives me the trick, the way I have to apply it etc. within seconds when I need it.

Wisdom however is something you gather slowly by learning, experience and above all: thinking and combining of learned elements. Now, tell me, what WISDOM related to software development can Robert possibly teach me?

I know a very few people I think can learn me something about software development. They're all over 45 years old. They hardly touch a computer too, at least they almost never write a line of code. Weird? Not at all. You see, the real wisdom about software development has nothing to do with working with a computer but with theory.

Here's some free wisdom for you, Brady: bashing is ok, as long as the bashing is done by reasoning. You attacked the people who think Robert should slow down a bit by calling them jealous and at the same time placing Robert above or at the same level of these people. To me, that's doing the people who sometimes critizise Robert not a favor and you're also doing Robert not a favor.
# November 20, 2003 11:02 AM

brady gaster said:

perhaps the jealousy thing was taken way out of context. perhaps it was a bit overboard on my part. whatever the case may be, i think this has gotten a little personal. i wans't attacking anyone, i refuse to withdraw any of my comments. thing is, i can't ascertain as to why anyone in the world of software would NOT want to provide a colleague with that wisdom that Frans is so eloquently pointing out.

And for perhaps the first time on this thread, i'm going to say that i totally agree with Frans on this point. The WHY is more important, and sometimes, young developers have no concept whatsoever of it. They only pick up the HOW's by jacking code or buying books. Truth be known, i know tons of developers like this out there, young - AND old - alike.

So yes, Frans, you're onto something indeed here. It is the WHY that's more important, and i commend your last post 100%.

However, i attacked no one. NO ONE. simply, i'm defending a friend, a colleague, and someone who i think is going to go VERY, VERY far in this industry. Heck, if you'd have seen the leaps and bounds of progress Rob's made over the last year. WHOA. He's like a sponge, ready to soak up any knowledge you'll share.

Sure, he talks a lot. i'll keep saying that. over and over again. He talks a lot. Personally, i'd like to see more architectural talk from Robert than product-related in this space. Sure, i'll agree with that too.

What i will NOT agree with is with any of my colleagues getting ripped apart because they have good things to say. What set me off this morning was that Rob wrote a great article, posited a wonderful idea, and was bashed, as he is EVERY TIME he posts.

Talk about respect? He gets none. Not because he gives none. Quite not the reason at all. Robert is ITCHING to be taught, to be guided, to be shown architectures and techniques, just like ALL young programmers.

i say we nourish that - in him, in one another, and in those fresh out of college who have "the hunger and the drive" to make ANYTHING happen code-wise. Don't bash - teach.
# November 20, 2003 11:16 AM

Avonelle Lovhaug said:

It is very strange to me that the complaints about the main feed having too much noise have focused on Robert. Honestly, there is a lot of noise on the main feed that has nothing to do with Robert. During the PDC it was excessive. Now it is better, but there is still noise (and there always will be). I haven't found Robert's posts to be many more noise filled or annoying than anyone else's. In fact, while there has been a lot of focus on a few specific posts that offended some, there were several other posts that I thought were interesting and informative. What about the post on installing controls (http://weblogs.asp.net/rmclaws/posts/38356.aspx)?
I'm not sure it is jealousy, but it does seem that there is something about Robert that is setting people off here. I don't get it, either. How is Robert "forcing his way in"? If it really bugs you that much - just don't read it!
I'll offer another point of view. For every person who says they are unsubscribing from the main feed due to Robert, they'll be another person who is interested in the personalities and conflict, and is paying more attention, just for the entertainment value.
Anyway, just my two cents.
# November 20, 2003 11:27 AM

Frans Bouma said:

Brady wrote: "What i will NOT agree with is with any of my colleagues getting ripped apart because they have good things to say. What set me off this morning was that Rob wrote a great article, posited a wonderful idea, and was bashed, as he is EVERY TIME he posts."
That's life, Brady. :) I don't know why people are picking on him personally, since it takes a simple RSS reader to skip his articles from the mainfeed. I skip most of Roberts or others articles because they're not interesting me that much. Bashing him about posting texts is not something that's appropriate, however that's what happens when you have something to say.

I wouldn't worry about it. Every opinion runs the risk of being the source of a counter-opinion. Expressing the opinion a bit black/white will place the opinion-expressor in the spotlight and likely to be bashed by someone who doesn't agree or simply hates the expressor because of an earlier opinion or for no reason at all. That's life. The minute you start worrying about who would hate you for what you think, that minute is the start of a miserable rest of your life, I can tell you that. I wrote over 20,000 usenet postings in my life and I can assure you, worrying about who doesn't like you because you think differently or even worse: are just outspoken about your opinion isn't worth the energy.

That said, defending Robert is a nice gesture, but it really doesn't do him any good, because it will bring to focus on him and your preaching texts why we all shouldn't like what he writes, which will paint an non-real image of him.

I agree with Avonelle here, noise is there, most of the time created by a lot of others as well...
# November 20, 2003 11:43 AM

Robert McLaws said:

Frans,

I already vented my opinion on why Rob Howard rocks. It's in an article I wrote 4 months ago on Builder.com, and it's been linked in my blog forever. Here it is again: http://www.builder.com.com/article.jhtml?id=u00320030731MCL01.htm&page=1&vf=tt

My opinion was made ridiculously clear in that article. I had no intention of wasting my time talking about it again. Why? Because I have other things I'm doing.

So Frans, how exactly to you expect me to gain wisdom if you do nothing to give me any of yours?
# November 20, 2003 11:44 AM

Andrew said:

Noise is a problem, but even loud signal (in the form of really long posts) can be annoying.
Maybe the soultion is to limit the content of the posts on the main feed?

I read quite a bit of his posts because I think that he, like me, is interested in design-Time control behavior, but Robert writes a whole lot of text in each post.


I didn't (ever) get pulled out of normal classes for special classes. In the ninth grade we did standardized tests;I had the best results in the school and yet nothing changed.
Is it relevant?

R.H. knows a lot, he wouldn't be where he is if he didn't, but that doesn't make his word "the law". I believe in the stored procedure approach, but everyday I see things that should NEVER have been done in an sp. If you don't use them it must be a choice and not ignorance.



# November 20, 2003 12:15 PM

Frans Bouma said:

"So Frans, how exactly to you expect me to gain wisdom if you do nothing to give me any of yours?"
I don't expect anything from you, Robert, I'm not here to teach you, because that would be a waste of my time. Not because you know everything, but because you usually forget one or more of the SEE, LEARN and THINK combination elements.

Now, reading your remark I quoted above is telling me that one of the following is true:
1) you know as much if not more than I do
2) you are ignoring of the fact that you simply CAN'T KNOW what more experienced people know.

I fear it's 2). Now you probably will be pissed off, but do the simple math here: I'm developing professional software since 1993, (post uni) for 9+ hours a day. Where were you in 1993, also graduating from your CS study on the uni? No. That's ok though, you simply CAN'T have the same amount of experience, it's physically impossible. Simple. Now, the same is true for me when you compare me to those who are much older than I am and graduated much earlier and thus worked longer. Am I mad about that? Why should I, it's simple logic.

Still, you seem to think you're on the top of the world... according to that statement I quoted. I don't know but there is something inside of me that says me that your opinions are not worth reading anymore.
# November 20, 2003 12:36 PM

Andrew said:

Frans,
I'm not saying you are right or wrong (I'm not going there:D), but you need to be carefull about equating quantity and quality.

I have worked with people with more formal education and more work experience, who in the end are not even competent.

I have to look at this project, and the client's "DBA" has twenty years experience and he decided that spaces and accents were good things to put in the MS Access databases he designs.


p.s. I use dynaic sql and parametric queries as well as SPs ;)
# November 20, 2003 12:52 PM

Robert McLaws said:

"2) you are ignoring of the fact that you simply CAN'T KNOW what more experienced people know."

Frans, you have no idea how much experience I have. You assume my age means that I haven't experienced a lot. This is my 4th business. I've done more in my 21 years then most people have done into their 40s.

I don't have to validate myself to you though. I have more than enought people willing yo help mold me into something better than to expect me to be a carbon copy of everyone else.
# November 20, 2003 1:39 PM

Frans Bouma said:

"Frans, you have no idea how much experience I have. You assume my age means that I haven't experienced a lot. This is my 4th business. I've done more in my 21 years then most people have done into their 40s. "
It takes 49EUR in the netherlands to start a business Robert, plus your 4th already? What happened to those other 3? :)

But enough about the businesses. If you think you can know everything at your 21 years of age as a person of mid 30, who has the same profession and who did finish uni, you are out of your mind.

Your behaviour is classic though. It's called over-compensation. Take some WISDOM from me, Robert: at 21 I thought I was at the top of the world, and why shouldn't I be, I programmed my first virtual memory managed kernel when I was 17, now almost 17 years ago. I discovered I wasn't. Because the years after uni learned me there is so much to learn after you've learned the basic knowledge to get started. And you have just got to that stage, Robert: the stage where you get started with the knowledge you gathered. Or are you suggesting you gained as much experience in your 21 years as I did in the past 17 years? I truly hope not.

Realize what you are, Robert, a 21 year old programmer without a univerisity degree who fights hard to get where he wants to be, however it's a loooong way you have to go. Just a FYI. Do whatever you want with it, I don't care, it's YOUR life.
# November 20, 2003 3:36 PM

Scott McCulloch said:

Hey i'm 25, and I really respect guys like Paul & Frans.

Most of the stuff Frans has spoken to me about has absolutely 0% to do specifically about .NET, that's because it just details approaches or best practice designs to common problems.

Robert on the other hand offers advice that is very specifically .NET, tricks & tips almost. This is also great, and it has its place.

I think the main point is that we can do without the marketing junk on a technical feed, the asp.net feed is not a place to sell products.

The one thing that I have learnt is (i'm only 25), is that the tips & tricks will only get you so far, and experience built up over X amount of years is what counts. I'm a much better programmer then I was 2 years ago, and I hope to be a much better programmer 2 years down the track.
# November 20, 2003 4:48 PM

mike said:

There is a lot of self-promotion going on, basically his company is practically vaporware - there is nothing on sale there that would interest most .NET developers.

GenX.Net is the one product that's available. Other than that:

VS.NET Version Commander
...
Coming November 2003 *

GeoList.NET
...
* Coming December 2003 *

WebSense
...
* Coming January 2004 *

ASP.NET Forums Configurator
...
* Coming January 2004 *

ScrollingGridPlus
...
* Coming January 2004 *

All vapor. So a lot of hot air for very little actual product. So yes, this site is being used to promote something that doesn't really deserve promoting.

There are at least a dozen companies with more actual .NET product available, that are actually useful for most people. Here are some of the main ones

www.infragistics.com
www.janusys.com
www.syncfusion.com

But they are not crowing about how in their 21 years they are the font of all wisdom, because they have already started 4 companies (no explanation as to what the other 3 are, nor why the current company is such an amazing success for a 21-year old (look wow one small product!)). Instead they provide useful products without the spam. Hell, there are even probably 50 small .NET companies selling just one product, just like Interscape, but these don't go on about their components in a forum where no-one other than their customers care.

Specifically adressed to Robert:
I am also young, and I warrant at least as intelligent as you, but I don't crow about how 'I've done more in my 21 years then most people have done into their 40s'.

As far as I can see what you've done doesn't amount to much more than a hill of beans. Come back when you have shown that you have some thing to contribute beyond an oversized ego and a lot of arrogant opinions.

This:
http://research.microsoft.com/users/lamport/pubs/pubs.html

is something to crow about

this is not:
http://weblogs.asp.net/rmclaws/

There is nothing wrong with being an arrogant 21-year-old who thinks that he is more intelligent than everyone he meets, and can't understand how people are making more money/are more respected/more successful
than he is, but there are ways to go about this.

Here's an example of humility and someone without a huge superiority complex but still with massive reach:
http://radio.weblogs.com/0001011/

Until you really have done something that amounts to something, you should follow his example. This is something I learned a few years ago, and it really helps in your relationships with people. Even when you have achieved something, have spent 10 years hacking Windows internals, you will find that respect will come from what you know and have really achieved, which speaks for itself and needs no self-promotion.

I really find your comment that you have achieved in a few years (3, 4?) more than most people do in a lifetime a fatal error, and a sign of a fool setting himself up for a fall.
# November 20, 2003 7:38 PM

Robert McLaws said:

Great feedback, all valid points. Thanks guys. This is why I blog.
# November 20, 2003 8:56 PM

Robert McLaws said:

By the way, vaporware is defined by talking about products that don't exist. The solutions posted on Interscape's website (which changes this evening, BTW) are all products that have completed the coding phase, and are now in wrap-up mode (save for ScrollingGridPlus) which takes a considerable amount of time. I have been trying to talk about the different phases and what happens, but I get blown off as trying to market a product, and get ignored. Oh well.

Mike, I will be addressing your concerns on my corporate blog.
# November 20, 2003 9:10 PM

Frans Bouma said:

"I have been trying to talk about the different phases and what happens, but I get blown off as trying to market a product, and get ignored. Oh well. "
You can talk about that without even mentioning a product: developing software is really tic-tac-toe, there are a few rules / ways to win, learn them, understand them and you're set. Explaining some/one of these through an EXAMPLE is more than ok. It's how you bring it: focus on the product or focus on the wisdom you want to explain. It takes a lot of time to get that right, because what's the REAL intention of writing the article? There is nothing wrong with PR or promoting of what you do. People like Eric Smith blog solely about their tool. The problem is: the more you do it, the more people will see a serious, non-promotional article, as a PR-move as well.
# November 21, 2003 5:02 AM

Alex said:

I think Robert can and should say whatever he wants on his blog - it's his blog after all. Those who disagree with his content or style are likewise free to not subscribe or read his posts.

I'm 42, have been in IT for over 21 years in both development and management roles. In those roles I have had up to 15 direct reports and at times over 600 people indirectly reporting to me.

The point? It's that I continue to learn from everyone including Robert. For that I thank him, and wish him success.
# November 25, 2003 7:26 PM
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