Carl Franklin

.NET Wonk
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Comments

Jeff Julian said:

It is great to finally have you in the blogosphere.
# October 9, 2003 4:33 PM

Carl Franklin said:

Good to be here. I mean, it was bound to happen.
# October 9, 2003 4:44 PM

Carl Franklin said:

Hey Zane. Interesting stuff there. As for the 20MB download, it's a problem right now. I hope it becomes something people will WANT to download/install in the future. I think if there's a version they should burn on CD and give away at Wal-Mart it should be 2.0

# October 9, 2003 5:06 PM

Scott Galloway said:

Welcome, just listened to the show with Scott Guthrie today - pretty good! Now, what about transcripts for the .NET rocks shows on your blog :-) (I wonder how they'd do passed through a speech recognition system?)
# October 9, 2003 5:28 PM

Roy Osherove said:

Welcome aboard Carl! I'm am *so* glad to see you enter the blogsphere. I'll be sitting by waiting to hear great stories about all kinds of interesting stuff you guys are doing.
# October 9, 2003 5:36 PM

Robert Scoble said:

Oh, just don't sing My Darling Clementine anymore, OK?
# October 9, 2003 6:22 PM

Jesse Ezell said:

Welcome. This has been a long time coming.
# October 9, 2003 7:21 PM

Carl Franklin said:

Scott,

We're going to transcribe all the shows and make them available as RSS.

How's that for serendipity?

Carl
# October 9, 2003 7:40 PM

Roy Osherove said:

Consider recording it on video as well. That would be twice as better!
# October 9, 2003 10:43 PM

Donny Mack said:

I left my wallet at home that night, but how about we get a group of people together and rent out a penthouse at one of the hotels and have our own little party after?

I can say for a fact that dotnetjunkies will pitch in a nice lump if others will help out. We were planning on doing some sort of thing anyway. If you want us to coordinate please ping me. We can get a good rate on the room for sure being platinum members at about 3 of the more upscale hotels in the area.

let me now,

donny.mack@dotnetjunkies.com
# October 9, 2003 10:51 PM

Carl Franklin said:

Well, that was way too cost-prohibitive. I don't know if you've done any video, but to do a 3-camera shoot right you need a talented video team, and they are not cheap. Besides, Mark and I share a phisique that was made for radio!
# October 9, 2003 10:52 PM

Carl Franklin said:

Donny, you mean raise some money to serve beer at the DNR show? Our room seats 800 people, and the PDC is sold out. That could get expensive :-)

If you mean have a party just to have a party, I'm all for it!
# October 9, 2003 10:54 PM

Phil Weber said:

Dude, are you bringing a guitar?
# October 10, 2003 1:14 AM

tim h said:

www.deepmetrix.com (LIveStats)
# October 10, 2003 1:33 AM

Carl Franklin said:

Yeah, that's the one I use. It sucks. It's always breaking, the reported data is wrong, and its got Java all over it. They have been unresponsive to my requests to add web services, and in general it's very slow.

# October 10, 2003 1:35 AM

Carl Franklin said:

Wouldn't it be nice to have a .NET stats program? ASP.NET based, SQL, web services, etc?

*sigh*
# October 10, 2003 1:36 AM

Chris Sells said:

I know I'm no longer an RD, but I used to be. Does that qualify me?
# October 10, 2003 2:25 AM

Carl Franklin said:

You, sir, would be qualified if you'd been busted to a measly Microsoft sweatshop coder! :-)
# October 10, 2003 2:29 AM

Carl Franklin said:

Wow.. the price is certainly right! Thanks for the tip. Good to hear from you.

Mike, you'll always hold a place in my heart for being a direct descendant of the inventor of that wonderful instrument that made John Coltrane a household name!
# October 10, 2003 2:31 AM

Scott Galloway said:

I currently use SmarterStats (from SmarterTools which Mike mentioned) - it is pretty good (and free for single sites which is nice). In comparison to other tools though, I have to say that it feels a bit 'unfinished' but it is certainly usable and worth trying, but it is not perfect...
# October 10, 2003 4:11 AM

Carl Franklin said:

Hey, we already got a taker!

Todd Lichty of Waterloo, ONT Canada is our first member! Ooo.. this is so exciting!

# October 10, 2003 4:30 PM

The Jeff said:

Funny, I live in Palm Desert (about 5 miles away from DevConnections) and decided to put my money into PDC and a hotel instead of going to DevConnections (Even though I would really like to).
# October 12, 2003 1:44 PM

Carl Franklin said:

Yep. The PDC is just too big to ignore this year.
# October 12, 2003 4:19 PM

Dave Burke said:

I was just curious, Carl. Will the CDs have tracks so I can skip ahead or backward for any reason? Or will the recording be one single track? Thx.
# October 13, 2003 10:16 PM

Carl Franklin said:

All of the shows recorded from this date on that we press to CD will have tracks. Old ones that you buy as archives will only have one track.
# October 13, 2003 11:09 PM

Marc Shiker said:

I was wondering what you were waiting for. You should post in mp3 format! Just kidding. I'm looking forward to reading and hope I can get as much out of your blog as I do out of your show.
# October 14, 2003 9:58 AM

Carl Franklin said:

Thanks! I haven't really begun to post anything interesting. I'm still in conference mode. After the PDC, I'll probably ramp up a bit.
# October 14, 2003 10:16 AM

Salman said:

Its great that you got things going with MSDN frank!
# October 15, 2003 12:30 AM

Ashutosh Nilkanth said:

This is going to be cool ... something I won't miss at .NET Rocks!
# October 17, 2003 10:39 AM

Robert Scoble said:

Leaked about Longhorn? Moi? Never!

Seriously, thanks for a great chat!
# October 21, 2003 5:23 AM

teardrop said:

sad, sad, sad

obviously you sir are a microsoft sycophant!
# October 26, 2003 11:28 AM

Carl Franklin said:

After what I saw yesterday, we should all be microsoft sycophants!
# October 26, 2003 12:00 PM

Edgar Sánchez said:

Hey Carl,

For what it's worth, the Ecuador RD will be there too. See you at room 403AB!
# October 26, 2003 12:06 PM

.NOT said:

No it don't, it's standard breaking rubbish. Full well you know this.
# October 26, 2003 12:24 PM

Carl Franklin said:

Edgar, thanks. I'll see you there.
# October 26, 2003 12:30 PM

Sparky said:

Presumably that'll be another watershed product like 95 or XP: products so good that I moved to Linux.
If Linux had a million pound PR budget, I'm sure you'd be impressed with a look at projects 2 or 3 years down the line, so let's wait until it comes out before passing judgment: anything else would be like sucking up to Microsoft, surely?
# October 26, 2003 6:16 PM

Anonymous said:

Anything can be cloned. It's business model that matters!
# October 26, 2003 8:16 PM

Carl Franklin said:

You Linux guys have it wrong. It would be predictable to expect the results you're expecting. If you are looking at purely technology (not marketing) you'll be blown away. You cannot comment on that which you have not seen with any more accuracy than a fortune teller. I have seen it. You will soon.
# October 27, 2003 4:22 AM

Mohammed Ibrahim a.k.a Brainstorm.NET said:

.NET Rocks, is the most popular and free radio talk show for .NET developers in the world. Dont be suprised Carl. Information is power. You announced it, in the last episode of .NET Rocks that you guys, would be at PDC 2003.
I cannt wait to get the show, I have being checking Franklins.NET almost every second for the show.
Keep the good work, Carl and Mark.
# October 27, 2003 7:21 AM

Carl Franklin said:

Maxim.. email is also about information, so is print advertising. I think Chris Sells said it best that (for the time being, anyway) blogs are a way that people who know how to use them can give themselves a more clear channel (more filtered, as you say) way to communicate. What surprises me is just how many people are tuned in.
# October 27, 2003 10:27 AM

Richard A Lowe said:

So, can you characterize this as be a radical departure from what we've publically seen so far? Are you speaking purely from our (developer's) point of view?

What about it blew you away? Was it the 'look and feel' of what they've done - or did they really come up with an new idea that changes things?
# October 27, 2003 12:58 PM

Sparky said:

I can't comment on technology until I have used or programmed it. I mean, OS/2 'looked' good with all that hype years ago.....
You cannot comment on that which you have not used with any more accuracy than a fortune teller. Neither of has used it. But we (eventually) will. Then we can decide wether it is any good or not.
# October 27, 2003 2:48 PM

Sparky said:

Last time I looked, python/whwindows ran on just about every machine that has a C++ compiler. OO code and a GUI as well!
Ok, it's *NOT* .NET, but since .NET doesn't run on Mac/*nix, it never will be write-once run-anywhere.
# October 27, 2003 2:53 PM

MsCyra said:

How do I get into that party on the roof of the Standard?
# October 27, 2003 7:49 PM

Sparky said:

Oh man! You discovered the use of grep together with some pipes! Very 78-unix style. Ooh: it has shiny buttons! Well, thats what we get for 25 years of progress!
# October 27, 2003 8:13 PM

Peter da Silva said:

Let's see. Most OSS scripting in whatever language uses a toolkit called "tk", which is inherently stretchy and provides a native interface on any OS. For example, I tossed together an program to provide a window view of a text file. I've been working on it using native X11 and native Aqua, and the same code runs on both. If you look at the page my name links to you'll see the evolution of the app as I added stuff to it. The first Mac OS X view was with the X11 code, untweaked. The second one, at the top, is what I got after adding a handful of tweaks to it.

I haven't tried it on Windows, but it shouldn't have any problem running from a BAT file, maybe as "wish vdb.tk -- args" because Windows doesn't have a built-in script launcher at the exec level.

How long would it take me to search my home directory? Thanks to the harvest search engine, which is also one of these web search engines you're talking about, not long at all. That's old technology.

Give me open systems and get out of my way.
# October 27, 2003 9:43 PM

Peter da Silva said:

PS: Sparky... look, shiny buttons you can put in your pipelines!
# October 27, 2003 9:48 PM

Sparky said:

Yes, shiny buttons in my scripts - it's called pyQT when I program them. Helpfully, they also work on windows / mac / bsd / aix etc.... which is more than we can say for .NET!
# October 28, 2003 8:35 AM

James Avery said:

Great, something else we can't have until later. ;)
# October 29, 2003 5:14 PM

Yosi Taguri said:

sorry, didn't see the header , please delete this
# October 29, 2003 6:44 PM

Yosi Taguri said:

sorry, didn't see the header , please delete this
# October 29, 2003 6:45 PM

avid listner said:

Its a little annoying that the msdn links don't show the original date of the show.
I like archives but I don't want a show from 1999. Everything shows Oct 23rd.
# October 30, 2003 11:06 AM

Bruce Haslam said:

I can't understand why Linux guys always hang around Microsoft areas. I can't think of 1 MS guy that could care less about Linux.
You Linux guys, quit all your complaining. You are ALL so tiresome.
MS is a business, plain and simple. Get your heads out of "cloud 9" or just leave us alone and go hug a tree.
# October 31, 2003 8:51 AM

Sparky? said:

Any chance of a setlist then?
# October 31, 2003 5:03 PM

Carl Franklin said:

Oooh. I'll see if we can get the lyrics posted as well. Maybe George Bullock has them written down somewhere.
# October 31, 2003 9:38 PM

G. Andrew Duthie said:

Sick puppy...and how did you find the time? I keep saying that one year I'm going to do something elaborate like that, but something always seems to come up (like getting home from PDC at 6am on Halloween).

I'm sure you've made Halloween memorable for those kids who managed to avoid heart failure. ;-)
# November 1, 2003 4:53 PM

SBC said:

I am sure it keeps your neighborhood's crime rate down... :-)
# November 2, 2003 7:05 AM

*Hulk Angry* said:

5 days later and the new show is still unavailable from either site! Well, back to the crack pipe for now...
# November 3, 2003 11:11 AM

Cos Callis said:

For the record... the bar was the "Biting Sow" and not only does .NET Rock... But so does CARL.
# November 4, 2003 11:41 PM

Mark Kenyon said:

Rocket launcher? Hmm... Was that special for this prank? Or are rockets a hobby of yours? I've Launched a few boy made objects into the atmosphere myself. (BTW, If you find a couple of Estes Wizards within a hundred miles of Voluntown let me know.)
# November 6, 2003 8:47 AM

Mark Kenyon said:

Carl, thanks for the good sum-up on PDC for those of us that couldn't go.

As for Linux vs. Windows... can't we all just get along.

I am developing on a shoe string budget. So why do I develop with MS rather than Linux based solutions? Because that's what we have. And because when I wanted to start writing interactive web pages I had a flood of ASP documentation that I could understand online that I could just read. I had friendly coders who didn't call me stupid cause I didn't already know what a Pipe is. (Which I still don't.)

Now I am writing Windows/Web Services/Apps integrating with Databases and all sorts of stuff. I have not taken one course that I or my company has had to pay for. That's what I call open source.

Let's put it this way. What good is a Mac that is simple for people to use that programmers can't develop for? Microsoft focused on making it easy for developers to create apps that would make people want to use their OS. Yes, maybe now they are making their interface easier, and that could have started earlier. But history shows that if you make apps for it, they will come. What app do I have to have that only runs on Linux?
# November 6, 2003 9:13 AM

Carl Franklin said:

Voluntown CT? Heh. When my brother was 15 he made a custom Estes rocket with 4 freakin D engine stages. That thing took off like a shot and disappeared. We never saw it again. AND... we launched it in a football field. Gone.
# November 6, 2003 12:00 PM

Mark Kenyon said:

I think you're gonna hear about that one. Do you have the one, 'If OSs were airlines?'
# November 7, 2003 8:51 AM

SBC said:

you are dangerous Carl.. :-)
# November 7, 2003 5:11 PM

Wayne Larimore said:

I cannot believe I missed this! I've been enjoying your coding tips, articles and wit for years (back to the QB45 days). And you were in town, and jammed at the "Biting Sow"! Carl, come back soon! I won't miss the next.
# November 10, 2003 10:09 PM

Carl Franklin said:

Yeah! That's a riot.
# November 11, 2003 12:29 PM

Scott McCulloch said:

I have the same laptop Carl, never had a problem with it, and is great for .NET development (e.g. the resolution)
# November 12, 2003 4:02 AM

Duncan said:

Although it will leave me wide open to the law of pedantic reverberation I think I should point out that grammar is incorrectly spelt ;-)
# November 12, 2003 6:05 AM

Kyle Tinsley said:

Please go back to weekly. My morning commute to work is lonely w/o the show.
# November 12, 2003 8:54 AM

SBC said:

I think the expression is 'slower than molasses'... but then again there are things slower than that (as you have mentioned)... :-)
# November 12, 2003 9:16 AM

Mark Kenyon said:

SNET was slow back in 1998 when I was working for the CyberZone, an ISP that was at the time out of Plainfield, CT. Aye! You think they woulda learned.
# November 12, 2003 10:29 AM

Carl Franklin said:

Ah yes. Cyberzone. I never met those guys, but I do know Scott that started Mindport (one of the first ISPs in the area, if not the first) and of course Downcity. They were good guys.
# November 12, 2003 11:05 AM

Carl Franklin said:

[spelling fixed] Thanks
# November 12, 2003 11:09 AM

SBC said:

SNET? Aren't they now called SBC :-)
# November 12, 2003 11:33 AM

Mark Kenyon said:

Scott worked with Sean (owner of Cyberzone) for a while. Scott was a Linux guy, but Sean was die hard MS. Cyberzone eventually bought Mindport (my first ISP). But then got gobbled up themselves. Hehe, I have some memories.
# November 13, 2003 1:35 PM

SBC said:

Great pics Carl! Thanks for posting them up.
# November 13, 2003 1:37 PM

Mark Miller said:

Hi Carl (and all you happy people :) ). One of the reasons I was impressed with what I could see of the new technological developments at the PDC (didn't go) was I knew that Microsoft would be bringing this technology into the mainstream. The part about including some compilers as "standard equipment" on the OS is totally awesome! I remember when programming languages used to come standard on personal computers. It's one big reason I learned to program at all when I was young. I wonder if we'll see a return of the "type-in" magazines of yore once Longhorn comes out. That would be neat.

As to some of the earlier comments, I've known about tools like Tk and "Wish" (I think it was called), both of which were designed to make GUI apps easy to create (primarily on Unix), since 11 years ago when I was in college. You know what? In the real world not that many places use them. The one place I've heard where such tools like these, and Ruby, are used are in government IT departments. I personally have not worked on a single IT project in my career that used these tools, and it's not because I worked on Microsoft-only projects. Far from it. Some years back I used to work on Unix almost exclusively. I used to beg and plead with my project leader to allow me to add some X11 UIs to the server tools we developed and deployed to customer sites, especially since we were doing data maintenance for most of our clients. The answer was always no, because the customers believed that X11 was too much of a security risk. None of the customers had a problem with us deploying Windows clients though.

Despite similar tools and frameworks being developed earlier, I believe that Microsoft will achieve with these technologies what they have always done in the past: introduce them to the broad public and make them understandable so that millions and millions of people actually use it and obtain its benefits, rather than it being forever the purview of a relatively small group or community.
# November 14, 2003 2:16 AM

G. Andrew Duthie said:

That's cool stuff. And a nice, concise explanation. Thanks, Carl!
# November 14, 2003 12:38 PM

Josh said:

I think the word you were looking for is "operands". But if you are anything like me, you were probably making up your own word on purpose.
# November 14, 2003 5:32 PM

Jerry Dennany said:

I enjoyed this - thanks for putting it up.
# November 15, 2003 6:12 PM

Mark Kenyon said:

Some day I am going to build a rocket with a tracking system sending WiFi to a laptop. If I hurry maybe I can be the first .Net interplanetary launch software.
# November 18, 2003 3:09 PM

rahsan said:

Carl, i have doubt in operator overloading
above given code i tried to execute but at operator defination ti showing an error "Expected end of statement" and Operator this keyword is not recognizing. plz. give solution for it
# November 19, 2003 3:15 AM

Carl Franklin said:

I'm using the Alpha bits of Whidbey from the PDC. What version are you using?
# November 19, 2003 8:41 AM

Sparky said:

Like, it's 2003....? where have you guys been the last 5 years?
# November 20, 2003 8:08 PM

James said:

Site is faster now. Thanks.
# November 20, 2003 11:17 PM

Marc Shiker said:

I noticed the speed difference as well. Glad it went smoothly.
# November 21, 2003 8:21 AM

Carl Franklin said:

It's interesting, because the new machine isn't much faster than the old machine. It's the new OS/IIS that makes it faster.
# November 21, 2003 8:36 AM

Jim Cheseborough said:

Delegates. So was Cindi satified with you ans.?
Still seems a bit confusing to me.
Thanks.
Jim
# November 24, 2003 12:03 AM

Jim Cheseborough said:

Ok, I seem to have learn how to declare and use a delegate, but please explain to me how this woman problem was solved by using delegates. In other words, I don't yet see how your detailed explanation solved her problem. Of course it's my ignorance that's the problem here.

deleg = new xxx(address of XYZ)

But isn't Cindi saying that XYZ is a variable.
So, how does your explanation work with this.

She has methods:
obj.aa
obj.bb
obj.cc
etc...

So, if I understand this correctly, she needs to do something like:
deleg = new xxx(address of obj.aa)

But...the fact that we need "aa" this time (say it was passed into a Querystring - ...aspx?meth=aa) means that we need something like:

'--- Bad syntax - just making a point
deleg = new xxx(address of obj. & meth)

So...please set me straight on this. I'm lost.

Thanks a lot.
Jim
jim@cheseborough.com
# November 24, 2003 3:45 PM

Carl Franklin said:

Jim,

The question I answered for her is "Is there a way for me to pass a variable as the function name"

IOW she wants to represent a function call with a variable.

I did not address her issue of "I don't want to have to type 70 function calls separately" but I did see it as an opportunity to show her how she could represent the methods of a class as variables.

If you understand the fundamental of how to represent functions as delegates then it's an easy logical step to figure out how to return an array of delegates that represent the function calls.

# November 24, 2003 4:00 PM

Jim Cheseborough said:

Carl,
Thanks a bunch for your reply!
I feel really stupid asking again, but you teachers always say there's "no such thing as a stupid question". So, I'll keep asking till I understand.

In YOUR example code, can you tell me how Sub1 could possibly be used from a STRING variable having a value of "Sub1". Assume *somehow* we have a string, string1 = "Sub1".

Using delegates in your example, how can I get at "Public Sub Sub1(ByVal Arg As String)" (in your TestClass) using this value in string1?

I thought THAT was what the woman was asking, Or (most likely) I'm all confused and brain dead as far as delegates go.

By the way, love your show. Listen to all of them as soon as they appear. I have the Archos mp3 player too. Keep up the good work.

Thanks again,
Jim
# November 24, 2003 7:25 PM

SBC said:

I like your quote from 'The Sound of Music'..
:-)
# November 27, 2003 1:32 PM

Brian Desmond said:

I'm going to be trying this soon - look forward to reading anything you learn about the process of getting MCE running. :)
# November 30, 2003 3:44 PM

Shannon J Hager said:

if your drive had trouble reading the disk, you should download the image again and burn another, possibly at a lower speed.
# November 30, 2003 4:34 PM

Carl Franklin said:

I tried burning at a lower speed. It turns out that it's the combination of the CD reader (kinda old) and the 80min silver Maxell CDRs I'm using. If there is so much as a thumbprint on the disc, the CD drive has problems. More to come...
# November 30, 2003 8:26 PM

HumanCompiler said:

Like Brian, I am about to take on this task as well...looking forward to more :D
# November 30, 2003 11:03 PM

Carl Franklin said:

Thanks Tim.

The Green Button - great place. I have visited it regularly.

> what model of the Hauppauge do you have?

Win-TV Theater.
# December 1, 2003 2:32 PM

Tim Marman said:

Doesn't sound like this is your problem, but I'm not sure if that model supports the API expected by MCE. You should check into that.

Good luck with it. I've been using it mostly as a jukebox, as my card troubles prevented me from using SVIDEO input (and the coax image quality wasn't cutting it).

I need to get a better cooling system too, the thing runs damned hot in my entertainment center. A new power supply probably wouldn't be a bad idea.
# December 1, 2003 4:18 PM

Brian Baker said:

What model of Inspiron did you have before? I have an 8000 and occasionally experience problems with the audio ground and syncing up with projectors.
# December 1, 2003 4:33 PM

Jim Cheseborough (jim*DEL THIS*@Cheseborough.com) said:

Very Cool. Thanks for the Blog update about this.
Hey Carl how about some *more* blogs on Whidbey from you? I don't think you've written enough on it (I could be wrong tho!).

For those of us than can't get our hands on a beta...we are anxiously awaiting the final release.

How do you like it?

Thanks
Jim
# December 5, 2003 10:32 AM

Scott Galloway said:

Was it Spyware that did this? This is pretty worrying and raises a point about the hosts file, this really should be more secure by default - why is it still just a simple text file???
# December 5, 2003 12:27 PM

SBC said:

sorry to hear about it... thanks for the precautionary tip..
# December 5, 2003 12:37 PM

Carl Franklin said:

It was obviously spyware that I picked up from some website.
# December 5, 2003 12:41 PM

Matt Youmell said:

kind of scary.
did you track down how this spyware got installed? maybe active x component download. if it was not some compiled download than it could have been done in script?
# December 5, 2003 1:20 PM

Carl Franklin said:

I am not allowing ActiveX, so that's not it. I have not figured out HOW it got installed
# December 5, 2003 1:23 PM

Mark Kenyon said:

Ouch, not good man. I'm sorry to hear. Do you know who/what the spyware was? Was it the box that hosted the NAT? Do you have Win2k3's Firewall running? Just wondering for our protection here.
# December 5, 2003 1:27 PM

Mark Kenyon said:

I've wondered for a while what it might take for a windows update bomb. IP spoofing, DNS tricks, but this would do it too.
# December 5, 2003 1:29 PM

Matt Youmell said:

maybe it was script in a web page or email message. i did some tests a while ago with a page on the internet regarding how much i could do with script. i was shocked, i could launch ie, open a command window and kill a process. for this reason i often find myself dragging outlook message into notepad first if i do not know who the sender is
# December 5, 2003 1:40 PM

Carl Franklin said:

I don't use outlook on that machine. It definitely came through IE.

# December 5, 2003 1:44 PM

Matt Youmell said:

my guess is some script that used the filesystemobject to grab and modify the hosts file
# December 5, 2003 1:48 PM

Scott said:

www.mozilla.org man, the web pages look just as good and you don't have to contend with rogue scripts killing processes.

FYI I'm not affiliated with mozilla.org other than as a user and I make my living programming in C#. :)
# December 5, 2003 2:43 PM

Me said:

If something can access your filesystem like that it can probably remove readonly attributes... If you want to protect it you'd be better restricting write access to an administrator account that you don't use for everyday work. Having said that, if something malicious has access to your file system, a change to the hosts file is the least of your worries.
If you don't know what did it how can you say it "definitely" came through a patched IE?
# December 5, 2003 3:03 PM

Denny said:

SOme stuff I'm learning more about is how often folks (like me) run with an admin login.

why am I posting this info....

if you protect a file for example to admin but as loged in as an admin then an attack that gets something to run on your pc can run as admin and do what it wants to... theres a site I found and will post later with an on-line book-in-progress about windows developer security that describes how this can happen and how to *NOT* let it happen by running with a low privelge account so that if IE launches a script it only runs as the less powerfull login account....
I'll find the link and post it back later....
# December 5, 2003 4:13 PM

Carl Franklin said:

After thinking about it some more, it's probably more likely that I donwloaded some shareware, which touched the file.

Also, changing the read-only attribute will only get you so far. If someone is writing to the file they can also flip the attribute back off.

I am away from the PC at the momemnt, but I will investigate further and let everyone know what I find.
# December 5, 2003 4:24 PM

Suzanne Cook said:

In the future, please do not manually remove the .NET Framework - always use the official uninstall. If it's not done correctly, it could, in fact, cause the original problem you described, in a way that reinstall won't fix. The v2.0 un/install will be more robust in that area. But, in general, it's not recommended to do this stuff by hand.
# December 5, 2003 5:21 PM

Carl Franklin said:

I don't make a habit of uninstalling the framework manually! ;-)

The only reason I did this as a last resort before re-paving the machine is because the official uninstaller was NOT THERE in the control panel applet.

This was NOT the cause of the original problem. This was during the "fixing" stage, which ended up not working.

Now I am going to completely re-install and I will post my results.

I will also monitor the installation closely in case I run into other problems.
# December 5, 2003 6:25 PM

Chris Stewart said:

I've got plenty of .NET problem stories to tell. Seems like Microsoft didn't really think much about domain controller University environments when creating the documentation for management of .NET.
# December 5, 2003 8:00 PM

Carl Franklin said:

That's EXACTLY what I'm talking about. Let's talk by email.
# December 5, 2003 11:54 PM

Paul Russell said:

Kind of like building 'n' layers of UI and using some slider principle to toggle views?
# December 6, 2003 6:59 AM

Wallym said:

Yes, I have a great .NET success story. This is a two year old story. We built an application in classic asp. We needed to do something async to the application but did not due to the need to get something up and going. Well because the classic asp application was doing the operation everytime, the app was just two slow. I set down, moved the functionality out of the classic asp application into a .NET Windows Service and the app ran beautifully after that. More specifics are available if you want to talk about it.

Wally
# December 6, 2003 8:30 AM

Ron Green said:

I really don't think the end user is going to like this. It's one thing to have controls on the page the user doesn't understand but it's quite another to have a constantly changing interface. And human curiousity is going to take over at some point and the user is going to keep clicking the button to see what it does.
# December 6, 2003 10:45 AM

James Steele said:

I like the idea Carl. This would also give us the capability of activating/de-activating features based on user roles.

Can't wait to see the comments posted by the VS.NET Program Managers.
# December 6, 2003 11:30 AM

String.Empty said:

My colleague had the same problem. It was one of the website that had a script that modifies your host file.
# December 6, 2003 12:20 PM

Jason Kohlhoff said:

That's good point James. I don't think it's UI layers that we really want though. What if you want to allow the user or administrator to choose what features they want to see? What if you need to do a roles based security type thing and (de)activate, hide/show controls based on domain group membership, some config in a database, or the registry? You can't simply lump everything into a "layer" and achieve these features, because you'd need to have more fine grained control.
# December 6, 2003 12:26 PM

Carl Franklin said:

> It's one thing to have controls on the page the user doesn't understand but it's quite another to have a constantly changing interface <

> The idea of having UI's that differ for different abilities of users .. <

I think some of you miss the point of this.

UI Layers are not a security setting and nobody expects any user to "pick" a layer and stay with it. Nor are we talking about radically altering the UI from one layer to another.

I'm talking about incrementally adding UI elements that require a gradually increasing learning curve for the purposes of getting the user USING all the features as quickly as possible.

The goal is to have the user at the highest level and staying there.

I bet you dollars to doughnuts, however, that usability testing will prove that gradually "introducing" users to features in the right order will signifigantly decrease the time it takes your average user to become proficient at using complex applications.
# December 6, 2003 3:15 PM

Carl Franklin said:

Sounds great. Why not send me the story by email? carl@franklins.net
# December 6, 2003 3:25 PM

Tim Marman said:

I'm not sure I like this idea that much. Besides the fact that Jon points out - nobody wants to be "beginner" - you're just presenting them with another choice.

And you're presenting them with this choice because your UI is already confusing?

I can envision the calls already from my older relatives if this ever made it into Office.

Plus, you kind of already have something like this in menu items. It filters out the things you don't use often, and while in many respects this is a convenience thing, it also effectively hides the "complicated" aspects of the application that the user doesn't use yet.

Although if you did go about this route, I think we should build AI to "learn" the level of the user and essentially have adaptive UI. If you don't f'up and seem to be doing well, gradually add features.

It's like those computer adaptive tests - give them a middle of the road question, see if they get it right. If they do, you trust them a little more and give them a harder one. If they don't get it right, dumb it down a bit.
# December 6, 2003 3:39 PM

Carl Franklin said:

> nobody wants to be "beginner"

Maybe a better approach is to give them books for "dummies". Nah - nobody would EVER by a book that labels you a dummy... would they?
# December 6, 2003 3:42 PM

Mark Erikson said:

Interestingly enough, this is what my senior project revolves around. We're writing a C++ IDE that can have features enabled incrementally (debugging, syntax highlighting, etc). The approach we're taking is basically an integer bitmask that the professor can generate to authorize features, then hand out to the students. Once a feature's authorized, the user can see it listed in the options and enable. Obviously, it's not the most secure approach we could be taking, but it should suffice for now.

As far as the designer support, I must say it does sound rather useful. I don't know if it would be used enough to make Microsoft's time creating it worthwhile, but it'd be cool nonetheless.



Mark Erikson
mark dot erikson at cedarville dot edu
# December 6, 2003 4:20 PM

Billy Hollis said:

The idea has merit for a certain range of applications, and is probably more applicable to commercial applications. I’m not sure that most applications need it. But flexibility is good if it doesn’t get in the way when you don't want it.

One easy way to implement this is with Extender Providers. I could do a base form than contained this functionality using an Extender Provider in a half hour or less, with each control’s minimum UI level settable in the property window. Should I do an MSDN article showing that solution? I’ll credit you as the idea originator.
# December 6, 2003 4:49 PM

Eddy Recio said:

I think the idea definitely has merits. It also shares insight into what the future should be like where UI's are adaptive to how people are best productive and one design does not fit all.

I often take a more task oriented apporach of asking what they might want to do next, making some assumptions, kinda like Win XP and the Side task pane. Having said that I almost wish you could turn this feature of XP off for advance users that want that screen space back.

Having previously said that the idea has some possibilities, how do you suggest going about implememnting such an idea. Are the layers composed of metadata, that can be configured on use, experience, etc? So would this perhaps be achieved by VS.NET creating mulitple .resx files that perhaps inherit from each other? I have lots more questions, but I'll leave it at those.
# December 6, 2003 4:53 PM

Carl Franklin said:

Billy,

Sure, go right ahead! Publish a link to this blog entry, if you don't mind. :-)
# December 6, 2003 4:53 PM

Carl Franklin said:

Eddy,

VS.NET just has to keep track of which controls/menu items are visible in a given layer, and to make sure that when your app switches from layer to layer that the new controls "appear" in a way that doesn't screw up the layout - i.e. drawing controls on top of each other.

CONCEPT CHECK: All the code is always there. All the UI is always there, it's just that both at design time and runtime, certain objects are invisible.

The designer UI simply needs to let you build a complex app in stages, but instead of forking the code (that would be bad) we need to quickly go from view to view or layer to layer.

I really don't think it's a complex task.
# December 6, 2003 4:59 PM

Carl Franklin said:

Now that I think of it, maybe a property of System.Windows.Forms.Control called Layer, which is 0 by default (there is always a layer 0) and can be set to reflect the layer that the control lives in.

I'm not sure who owns the logic to turn control functionality on and off. I suppose both the form (or container) and the control to some extent, although I haven't thought it through yet.
# December 6, 2003 5:12 PM

Dan Appleman said:

I don't have enough information, but let's see what we can guess:

1. You say behind NAT - but it's not clear if it's hardware (behind a router) or you're using Internet Connection Sharing on your machine. ICS does not provide the kind of firewall protection NAT on a router provides (because the machine is still directly on the Internet).

2. You don't mention if you have an active antivirus program running (such as Mcafee or Norton) - I assume you would though.

Assuming you're properly firewalled, updated, and antivirus protected, there remain several possibilities:
1 - You hit a site or software during the "window of vulnerability" between the discovery of a vulnerability and antivirus vendors came up with a solution.
2 - You did something to install adware. Lots of Adware does stuff like this, and some of them do their best to hide what they are doing. Software based greeting cards are one example. ActiveX controls carry these kinds of things.

It sounds a bit like the Troj_QHosts.A virus - it's based on an ActiveX exploit. I assume you prompt on installation of ActiveX controls (including signed controls?).

My best guess is that you were not hacked from outside - rather, you were infected during the course of browsing or reading Email.

Dan
# December 6, 2003 5:37 PM

Carl Franklin said:

Dan,

I'm using a cable modem going into a NAT router (hardware). My ip address is not public.

I'm going to investigate more when I get back.
# December 6, 2003 5:48 PM

julie lerman said:

Very cool idea Carl. I always love the way you are thinking out of the box. So first of all, my mom and dad would be VERY happy with an application that let's them start out as a beginner. No ego problems there at all.

I will have to look at the code because my brain is already whizzing through all of the possible ways to implement this. Talk about an extensible framework. God - think XAML. That's what would enable a thing like this. You don't have to change the CODE just the face.

Oh Carl, how can you do this to me? I've already got a gazillion client projects and pet projects on the burner! :-)

Now this is inspiraton to go out and get a longhorn box and get snowed in!!
# December 6, 2003 6:04 PM

Joel said:

How about extending the idea to security groups? Layers representing security levels - almost the same thing.
# December 6, 2003 6:28 PM

Not really new.... said:

While I like the idea of providing different UI capabilities to different users I don't think it is a new idea but rather something we should all be doing...more or less explicitly.

As an example of an explicit approach the UI of the Calculator app in Windows can be changed using the menu View|Standard or Scientific.

It other applications the access to advanced features/behaviour hidden away behind Option or Advanced buttons/tabs.

/Chris
# December 6, 2003 6:39 PM

Carl Franklin said:

Chris,

I agree it's not a new idea, and we have always had the ability to code this feature explicitly, as I did in the sample project above.

I'm proposing that the designers in the dev environment give us the ability to create an "incremental UI" without having to write a great deal of plumbing code.
# December 6, 2003 6:50 PM

Bernie N. said:

Excellent.

Video moved at a good pace, and was easy to understand.

Thanks.
# December 6, 2003 7:14 PM

Rory said:

"The idea of having UI's that differ for different abilities of users is appealing until you find out that nobody will ever select the beginner UI - its a big old ego thing."

I think you're right if we're talking about developers - Developers definitely have ego issues when it comes to being considered "Beginner/Pro/Expert," but end users just want something simple and easy regardless of the label. There's nothing particularly insulting about "beginner" status anyway. All it indicates is that you're new to a system, which isn't even remotely the same thing as calling somebody "stupid."

While it's entirely anecdotal evidence, I *do* know quite a few people who wouldn't mind being called "begginers" at all. Rather, they might find it rather comforting. Seeing a "beginner" setting might make them feel as though the developer actually *considered* that there might be non-expert users at the helm. Far from being insulting, I would think this to be a sign of compassion in an area that has traditionally been rife with "bad vibes" (developers meeting with users often result with both sides swearing at each other - it doesn't *have* to be like this).

Also, this whole UI layering thing isn't something you'd have to stick in every app you write, but it would be pretty sweet to have for the times when such a system would make sense. I've certainly written apps for which a layering system would have been appropriate.

Anyway, I think it's more important to give a user a good experience than to worry about egos.

I've been playing "Simpsons Road Rage" on my X-Box all afternoon, and I've been playing with the "tutorial" mode turned on. This means that I am presented with the occasional dialog box explaining a concept of the game with which I might not yet be familiar. It's a silly example, but it's helped me get the most out of the game in a very short amount of time. I find the feature very useful, and don't mind the implication that I'm not an "expert" "Simpsons Road Rage player." You may feel differently, but I wanted to express that there *are* those of us who *like* a little bit of hand-holding at the outset.

Just my two cents. I'll probably be back in a little while when I get some more change...
# December 6, 2003 7:22 PM

milbertus said:

I definitely like this idea. To some extent (at least with complex apps), when I use an app for the first time, I don't try and go through all of the options and figure out what I want set to what - I play around with the app, and set the options as they come up.

This will just be a way of formalizing that process. I could start with the Beginner UI, and gradually work my way up to Expert. While this progression may be fairly fast for me, it doesn't have to be that way for everyone.

While the term "beginner" may be insulting for some users, it's not like these descriptions are set in stone. The label doesn't matter as much as the concept, of allowing the user to learn the app at their own pace.
# December 6, 2003 9:24 PM

Bruce said:

If the word 'beginner' bothers you - try "simple" and "complex". That skews it the other way.
# December 6, 2003 11:41 PM

Adam Hill said:

As a developer I would like this functionality in the IDE as well. And I have developed many apps where there were multiple user roles that only differed by what controls were visible.

We already have PageNavigation in the Framework, PageLayers could be a step in the "removal of 2/3's of the code" direction.

Now if we could *animate* the opacity of controls fading in/out we would have coolness as well :)
# December 7, 2003 12:48 AM

Carl Franklin said:

Gang, don't think that the "idea" is to put a "Beginner/Pro/Expert" button on every form. That's just a demo. The important thing is that you have programatic control over when, how, and under what conditions to move through the layers.

If you want to "decide" for the user when to do that, great. If you want to let the user control that, great. If you want to bug the user about it "Do you want to be able to do such-and-such.." that's ok too.

It's the designer and the programatic control that I'd like to see developed.
# December 7, 2003 5:21 AM

Steven M. Cohn said:

I'm sure this has merit and probably has a limited use for applications that may be used by a wide range of users; most appropriately software development applications that target both students and developers with decades of experience behind them.

Not to burst your bubble, but this really isn't any different that what the Office team did when they introduced the "Advanced view" for the drop-down menus. When you first install Office you get a slimmed down view of the menu items. But as you use hidden features (viewable when you hover of the last icon in the slim menu view) these features slowly get added to the menus. Or you can enable the full menus with an Option.

I'm afraid this would all come down to ROI. Is it really worth the development time to build a really good interface? In your layered example of your simple notepad app, what would happen in you added lots of features in level 3; what would that mean if you then went back to level 2? Would there be implicit rules that that form designer would need to follow? Would the user understand these constricting rules without a Level 3 view side-by-side? There's a lot to think about.
# December 7, 2003 7:38 AM

julie lerman said:

Steven- (If I am understanding you correctly) I think you are missing Carl's point. He is suggesting that the IDE could be making it easier for us to implement this type of stuff so that we don't have to worry about the ROI of creating user level UI's.

Sure the idea of showing/hiding features is not new. I'm sure many of us do it based on user permissions all of the time. Admins see things non-admins don't. Managers see things non-managers don't. In my case that's just making menu options visible or not, buttons visible or not or maybe a screen editable or not.

So that's where Billy's idea of the control extenders come in. Right now, I explicitly set these values when I load a page - check the user parms and basically turn visible true or false or enabled true or false. But with control extenders, you can just set the permission setting once and the extender can have the control of these properties. Generically "this control is available to GROUP X and GROUP Y". So that is a neat way to implement it already without something new in the IDE.

Well, I have to go. We got over a foot of snow and it is time to go skiing! Woo hoo!!
# December 7, 2003 9:28 AM

Carl Franklin said:

>> Not to burst your bubble, but this really isn't any different that what the Office team did when they introduced the "Advanced view" for the drop-down menus. <<

There's no bubble to burst. <g>

As I told Chris (scroll up), the idea of hiding things is not new. What I want is an easy way to DEVELOP apps that have a layered incremental UI.

If you really want to be picky, you could say that Office implemented this only in the menu structure. With the right tools, it could apply to the general work area (controls) as well.
# December 7, 2003 11:29 AM

Carl Franklin said:

>> with control extenders, you can just set the permission setting once and the extender can have the control of these properties. <<

That's true, and I wasn't even thinking of using this feature in the context of security, but I suppose that could work too.
# December 7, 2003 11:32 AM

Scott said:

So, if you want to simulate application option layers, couldn't you create a struct/class/array containing refs to the UI controls that are contained in each layer. Then when the user clicks on the "pro" or "expert" button, you just interate through the array and set the "visible" property on each control (or if you were using a struct/class to hold the refs you could just have a methods called "show" and "hide" on the object).
# December 7, 2003 4:09 PM

Thom Robbins said:

Actually an interesting idea. This is something people have been doing for awhile. But I think the difference here is that you are actually presenting this to the developer within the UI as a feature of VS.NET.

As someone mentioned I personally, think it would be good within the context of security most of all. The idea that when you validate a user certain layers get turned off and the code is segmented would be interesting.
# December 7, 2003 4:33 PM

julie lerman said:

I was thinking more about the control extenders (while shoveling snow!). It would be hard [for me] to make them dynamic so that you could easily ADD permission groups or user levels, etc..

The experiment to do would be to compare having one control extender with multiple properties (is that possible?) or have multiple control extenders.

But I have to work on my other program now. I just can't help thinking about this. I like the challenge of how to make it work in the most extensible way.
# December 7, 2003 5:27 PM

Carl Franklin said:

I know its hard to pick out the nuggets in this post, but I'd like to see a Layer property on System.Windows.Forms.Control :-)
# December 7, 2003 6:50 PM

Steven M. Cohn said:

Yeah, I got it. I agree it would be cool to be able to build a UI as Carl described. But I wonder about the value of such a UI and how it would be adopted by users other than those who can comprehend such an advanced view of the world.

Joe User doesn't even understand that the Start menu is the same as the Start menu folder and can be viewed in Windows Explorer, IE, right-clicking on My Computer and clicking Explore. Window is bloated with redundant features to help different user levels, but in the end, it tends to confuse more than clarify. (Don't get me wrong; I a big fan.)

Of course, I could very well be proven wrong and, as I said, think it would be worth investigating. I look forward to hear if this does get adopted by Microsoft.
# December 7, 2003 7:39 PM

julie lerman said:

windows.form.control.layer=string?
windows.form.control.layer=windows.form.controls.layerEnum?
It looks like I have to cut this out and just download the damned sample! I just am knee-deep in code... :-)
# December 7, 2003 8:10 PM

John Robb said:

Why don't you just call it a layered "working" tutorial?
# December 7, 2003 9:30 PM

Rory said:

"But I wonder about the value of such a UI and how it would be adopted by users other than those who can comprehend such an advanced view of the world."

I think those users would really appreciate it. Although this might sound silly, such a feature would be a good way to say "Hey - we just want to help you out a little."

It isn't going to solve all the usability problems in the universe, but it could contribute to making things better for the big picture.

Anyway, I think the added complexity of *one* toggle button (or however it's implemented) would be worth the benefit.

"Joe User doesn't even understand that the Start menu is the same as the Start menu folder and can be viewed in Windows Explorer..."

The user doesn't know about that folder because the user doesn't need to access it.

Users do, however, use applications. I mean, there's no other reason to turn the PC on in the first place :)

Since they're already exposed to the app, and since the feature could be implemented in a very easy to use and very easy to find manner, I think that adapting to the feature wouldn't be terribly difficult - certainly less difficult than finding some obscure folder. Users are accustomed to pushing buttons, but they aren't very familiar with hunting down folders they don't use - they use that stupid Search Dog for that :)
# December 7, 2003 11:25 PM

Carl Franklin said:

I wonder how many of us have spent any time with the "rest of the world." You know, those who'se lives DON'T revolve around the PC. <g>

There are more of them than there are of us.

Case and point, the minister of my church is afraid of PCs, but absolutely has to use one to communicate by email.

She has to know just as much about using email as you I any of us. What do you think her experience of configuring and using Outlook is going to be like? Not good.

"Carl, I just installed and am running Outlook. Now what do I do?"

# December 7, 2003 11:41 PM

Scott said:

Unlike the plethora of "softies" posting here and other places, I have to design interfaces for real people. I get feedback immediately if the UI is confusing, usually a phone call or a blinking voicemail light. I have been doing this for around 10 years now. Stuff like this is nice for developers to have; 90% of the users will never use it. Stuff like this gets posted in PC Magazine as a "Windows tip and trick: Did you know you can enable advanced options in blah? Click the "advanced" button".

I think the real advantage to the layers concept, something which is not new (web apps have been doing it since the boom), is in the security context that others have mentioned. The ability to easily show/hide UI elements based on a security role would be a plus.

However, given that there are easy work arounds in the current framework that would simulate this sort of thing, I'd rather any .NET Framework guys at MS working on this turn their efforts toward making a DataGrid and DataSet that not suck rather than adding a .Layer property to WinForms/WebForms.
# December 8, 2003 1:50 AM

Rory said:

"Unlike the plethora of "softies" posting here and other places, I have to design interfaces for real people."

Well - Let's be fair here... Owning the vast majority of the desktop market, MS is absolutely developing interfaces for real people.

It shows, too.

There might be flaws, but MS isn't alone in making the odd mistake or two. I get really frustrated when using my Mac sometimes because I've found that, depending on who coded what app with what technology, different *common* meta-key combos do entirely different things. It's maddening. I certainly haven't encountered anything like this in Windows.

Granted, like most of what I write in comments, this "evidence" is anecdotal, but let's not pretend that MS coders aren't developing for "real people."

"However, given that there are easy work arounds in the current framework that would simulate this sort of thing, I'd rather any .NET Framework guys at MS working on this turn their efforts toward making a DataGrid and DataSet that not suck rather than adding a .Layer property to WinForms/WebForms."

It's not like .NET is the product of five coders crammed in a room. It's entirely possible that the people who deal with the DataGrid aren't the same people who would implement a feature like this.

Of course, I have no idea what I'm talking about since I haven't seen MS's operations, but it isn't a bad guess.

Point being, it *seems* like a good idea that would be totally innocuous - if you don't want to use the feature, then you certainly wouldn't have to.

The ad hominems are just a distraction from the issue which is simply: Is the feature good or not?
# December 8, 2003 2:25 AM

Carl Franklin said:

Ivan,

Great post. I agree that it can't work at the OS level. Just because I'm new to application X doesn't mean I'm not a whiz at application Y.
# December 8, 2003 4:48 AM

Scott said:

Rory,

I'm not sure that this feature IS totally innoculous. By including a "Layer" property, you also have to include a "Layers" collection for the WinForm, which means a default Layer has to be present for all the controls on the form to go into. You also have to include some sort of z-layer like property in the layer to handle overlaps. Not to mention an overhaul of the visual designer in Visual Studio to handle the layers. I don't know how big of a deal that is since VS is closed source :), but given how slowly things move at a large corporation I can't imagine the change would be trvial. Given that there are other ways to implement this in the current framework, it wouldn't get a high priority from me on a new features list. It's kind of a pseudo control-array wrapper for the "visible" property.

The ad hominems were actually making a different point, it must have been a murkey one though. Even if Microsoft implements the layer feature and we have the ability to turn off/on parts of the UI based on experience level, most people won't use it or even know the "expert" interface is there. I've been using MS technologies since DOS 4.0 and I'm STILL finding little nuggets and features in apps like Word and Excel. Features that some developer locked away in an office with only enough room under the door to slide a pizza, thought was the most important feature. One that everyone would want.
# December 8, 2003 10:49 AM

Carl Franklin said:

>> You also have to include some sort of z-layer like property in the layer to handle overlaps <<

Layers are not on top of each other (as in photoshop, for example). They are stages of UI all on the same z-axis. Microsoft already has anchoring and docking features of controls that prevent them from stepping on each other.

>> Even if Microsoft implements the layer feature and we have the ability to turn off/on parts of the UI based on experience level, most people won't use it or even know the "expert" interface is there. <<

That's assuming that the layers can ONLY be promoted by the user, which has nothing to do with the layer technology. That's a decision the programmer makes. A good program will determine when it is time to promote the UI.

How hard would it be to ask the user after so many days of use?
# December 8, 2003 10:58 AM

Mark Kenyon said:

You've heard from me before, but I'll review our stuff here.

We had no web site when I got here. (1 page does not a web site make.) I started creating forms in ASP classic, but the more we did online, the more we wanted to do.

So, we've developed our site in .Net which integrates orders with Great Plains and our Kodak Production software (SQL database). We used to hire extra help between Sept. and Dec.
Now, not only have we stopped hiring extra help, we've shrunk our staff through atrophy.

We get hundreds of complex orders a day that used to have to be hand entered twice, into Great Plains and the SQL database. Now nobody handles them until it's time to complete the order.

Development staff = 1 (Me)
Training Process = .Net Rocks, Forums, and books
# December 8, 2003 11:11 AM

Mark Kenyon said:

Already begging for this functionality, tho I didn't know it. My software handles 3 different types of jobs, tho very similar. I have a clunky way of handling which controls are viewed for which type of job. I'm programmatically creating the text boxes I need, even tho some of them are the same regardless of the job. I could use a layer for each job with certain controls for all layers.

BTW, I hate the hidden menu controls. Bugs me right up a wall when I am talking to a user and say 'Click on Open' and they say 'I don't see open' and all it is is they have to click those stupid double arrows.
# December 8, 2003 11:30 AM

Scott said:

Good point about the user being prompted after so many uses. Although I don't know that I would tie it to a time interval, but maybe a usage or function level. e.g. if(advanced_functionality_exists_for_task) -> prompt the user about displaying/tutoring them in the advanced functions. That could annoy some people though. "This darn computer keeps asking me questions every time I try to do something!"

I think that programatically a layers property would make it easier to show/hide controls (which is really what we are talking about, not enabling/disabling functionality) based on certain conditions. But I think it's already possible and not difficult to implement now, so it's not something I would clamor for (if you're soliciting opinions, if not "/ignore Scott"). Plus I'm already doing things like this in ASP.NET and haven' had to do much WinForms programming, so that may color my thinking somewhat.
# December 8, 2003 12:26 PM

Steve said:

I want to throw a contrarian view out there. It would be a bad idea to make this easy. Task based UI is a great idea. Having layers as a metaphor to allow drag and drop building of dynamic UI rather than forcing the developer to code is not bad.

But the original idea of multiple modes that get switched on the user is horrible. HORRIBLE I SAY! :-) I can't say how frustrating it is to find a cool feature only to forget where you found it. Add on top of that the need to know what mode you've set your App in, or for goodness sake what mode it decided to auto-select for you! There are lots of different ways people remember things, and moving stuff around dynamically penalizes a large portion of the population that might recall things spatially.

Having a tutorial, programmatic help, or comprehensible UI for a beginning user/player is not the same thing as having a visually different UI based on a mode setting. I think some recent games show good ideas in this direction. People aren't forced to use games so bad UI is punished there more than other areas. Knights of the Old Republic (I played it on the Xbox) had a great automatic introduction to the controls as it introduced you to the tasks at hand. I think looking at game UI is a good place to see experiments in UI succeed or fail.

It sounds like this feature would make it easy to create horribly complicated software puzzles that would serve to frustrate and confuse users. Add on top of that multiplying the test matrix for the now easily created modes, and I'd argue you have a recipe for losing sight of the issue (an unapproachable UI) when the resulting problems in additional bugs, documentation, etc start to roll in.

That said, the spirt of this discussion ... how to aid developers in creating approachable UI, is great. I just think automating the creation of modality in the presentation layer is the wrong direction.


# December 8, 2003 1:02 PM

Mark Kenyon said:

Well, in regards to Steve's comment, helping developers create the UI is great. It should (and in many other features of programming, is) be the responsibility of the programmer to ensure ease of use with the tools he has at hand. (Because a gun shoots a man is the gun at fault?)

'Sides, if somebody makes a poor UI, nobody will buy it, or his company will either can him or tell him to shape up.
# December 8, 2003 3:33 PM

Rory said:

"But the original idea of multiple modes that get switched on the user is horrible. HORRIBLE I SAY! :-) I can't say how frustrating it is to find a cool feature only to forget where you found it."

While I agree that it would be frustrating to find a cool feature and then forget where it came from, I'd like to point out that this shouldn't be a problem with the multiple-modes feature.

If the user starts out in "Beginner" mode and increments the complexity of the UI sequentially (Beginner, Pro, Expert), then the user theoretically shouldn't encounter any features that he or she will forget - if I understand Carl's idea properly, then the UI is always added *to*, but not subracted *from*.

By the time you're ready for "Pro" mode, you should know the "Beginner" UI pretty well.

It would be like playing a game of "Concentration" first with 4 cards ("Beginner"), then 8 cards ("Pro"), and finally 16 ("Expert"). As cards are added, you *will* lose a little bit of context, but you should still have a generally good idea of where the old cards were.

'Course, this might all just be the caffeine talking :)
# December 8, 2003 5:18 PM

Mads Kristensen said:

Carl, I like your idea and have been looking for something like it for years. I startet out in web development, and html have allways been able to do layers. It's a common thing that I use every day developent asp.net pages.

You should maybe think of layers as placeholders for UI elements that you can turn on and off (or altered) depending of events triggered by e.g. the user. That's how web developers use layers. Can't see the fuzz about security having anything to do with layers???

Maybe your example is confusing, but I understand it as purely a design feature. Not a beginner, pro, expert feature.
# December 8, 2003 6:41 PM

Carl Franklin said:

>> BTW, I hate the hidden menu controls. Bugs me right up a wall when I am talking to a user and say 'Click on Open' and they say 'I don't see open' <<

I don't envision people going from a more complex UI back to a more simple UI, which is what you have there. Again, my idea is to just give the user a way to become proficient more quickly, and never look back.
# December 8, 2003 7:09 PM

Carl Franklin said:

> Maybe your example is confusing, but I understand it as purely a design feature. Not a beginner, pro, expert feature. <

That is exactly how I see it. Everyone has glommed onto the beginner/pro/expert thing, when that is just the silly demo part of the whole deal. I don't care if you call it apples, bannans, and fruitcake. It's stages - layers of complexity. I feel like I've been making the same post over and over again.

It's not about beginner/pro/expert, ok??

# December 8, 2003 7:17 PM

Steve said:

I might be confused. But I think I acutally just disagree. (Though my opinion on UI can definitely be taken with a couple grains of salt.)

>The problem is the UI to access ALL the features is always enabled by default.<

That is the statements I don't agree with.

I believe that easing the learning curve of a UI without disabling access to any features is always a better alternative.
# December 8, 2003 7:58 PM

Carl Franklin said:

Is that because you can't imagine being a regular user getting overwhelmed by a complex UI?

I take people's word for it when they tell me software is too complex.
# December 8, 2003 8:37 PM

Sean Gerety said:

I like the ideal. And here's where I'd use it. Outlook. There's really only about 3 or 4 buttons that I use on a daily basis, however I've probably got 25 buttons and other items on the toolbars. I'd like to reclaim that space (can you tell I work on a laptop?). And only when I need those advanced items would I show them.

This is kind of along a line of another control I'd like to create called a cabinet control. Think of the XP drop-down menu, but that concept would be used on a toolbar. Show me the items I use alot (or pin, a la the Start menu in XP) and when I hover over the ">>" icon show me all of the toolbar.

Sean
# December 8, 2003 9:27 PM

Scott said:

I am starting to warm up to the layers idea some, it could just be the effects of the gas they pump into the air in Redmond. I just got back from the Scott Guthrie show at the Microsoft conference center.

I think most of us realize that the idea can be extended beyone just a simple "beginner, pro" UI modification. I don't think the layers property adds any value to the users experience inherently. I think it provides a shortcut for the developers that they can use to enhance the users experience. I think the most obvious practical uses are both the user configurable UI (think of the users being able to select out things they don't care about then being able to hide them with a single method call.) and for security purposes (think of a firewall configuration applet that will display the ports open, but hide any buttons (or kb hotkeys?) that would allow the user to open ports up).

Adding a layers property would require a change to the visual designer, unless it was a pure pseudo-control array type of construct and didn't have anything to do with the presentation.
# December 9, 2003 2:28 AM

Carl Franklin said:

I love the Internet! I can't wait to check this out!
# December 9, 2003 8:07 AM

Bryan Batchelder said:

I saw two people mention "Control Extenders", which on subsequent googling came up with very little. Anyone care to enlighten me on this? From what I can tell they are non-visual components that get linked up to a control...but do what? Thanks, Bryan.
# December 9, 2003 6:07 PM

Carl Franklin said:

An good example of an extender provider is the ToolTip control. When you add it to the form, all the controls on the form get a new property "ToolTip on ToolTip1". The new property is attached to all the controls but the implementation is in the ToolTip1 control.
# December 9, 2003 6:39 PM

Josh said:

I guess I should have read the comments before going off and spending an hour coding up a solution. Looks like a lot of people already realized it could be done using an extender property, and have created an implementation.

My implementation differs from the one described by Ifeanyi Echeruo, because I stick with an Integer value for the Layer property. I believe that allows you to more easily "stack" layers. If a control only has one layer property, it can only belong to one layer. Using an integer, you can say an control with a Layer = 3 will show up on every layer 0-3. My component that provides the Layer property also has its own property, CurrentLayer. This provides the interface for the developer to change the layer. In the property "set" method of CurrentLayer, it loops through all of the controls on the form and sets the control's visible property to true if it's Layer <= CurrentLayer, otherwise it is set to false.
This was just a quick-hit solution, as using the Visible property in this way wouldn't be reliable. What if a control's visibility is controlled by some other programmatic means? Just because a control is on a layer that is visible, doesn't necessarily the control should be visible at that point.

Bryan - try googling for IExtenderProvider. That's the interface you need to implement to create one of these things.

Ok, I feel like I'm doing my own MSDN article now. Carl, I apologize for using your webspace for my own streaming thoughts (I'm blogless), but I love your idea, and firmly believe that a usable solution can be created WITHOUT waiting for Redmond to implement it.

Anyone want to start a GotDotNet Workspace to do this? joshuaflanagan at yahoo dot com
# December 10, 2003 11:21 PM

Carl Franklin said:

Actually, Billy Hollis is the guy to help you. He's got a lot of time with Extender Providers. I'll email him and ask him to come back to the blog. :-)
# December 11, 2003 12:15 AM

Patrick Hynds said:

This concept has a wonderful benefit if you are developing applications that are either licensed at levels or that users play different roles with different workflows.
# December 11, 2003 9:17 AM

Russ Fustino said:

So one question... does the newest layer inherit all of the prior layers or is it independent on it's own?
# December 11, 2003 2:31 PM

Carl Franklin said:

Yes, exactly. the highest layer inherits all the objects from the previous layers.

Carl
# December 11, 2003 2:37 PM

Ifeanyi Echeruo said:

Oh boy this is getting long winded. At this rate the blog is going to need a newsgroup ;)

Josh - my implementation does what you describe under the hood. It uses an integer property to mark layers. And multiple providers can set different layers on the same object without clobbering each other.
The layout provider keeps the dirty laundry under wraps but publicly maps the integer to the order of strings in the Roles collection. Given a Roles collection Dad, Mom and Bob; at layer Dad only Dad is enabled but at layer Bob Bob, Mom and Dad are enabled.

The reason for using strings to label layers would be the same reason you would want to use enums in code for constants.

You're quite right about the fight for visibility. if you make an item invisible in code and later switch layers that item's visibility is clobbered. The solution?

I could only think of two

1) Dont give the item a layer. If SetRole is never called on an object its hands off for the layer system. I guess that means IRoleProvider needs an UnSetRole

2) Provide a second property 'layer visibility'
It is a shadow property that indicates what Control.Visible 'should' be. Every time you want to change Control.Visible and it does not match 'layer visibility' you know someone did something behind your back. Leave the control alone until 'layer visibility' and Control.Visible match

PS - I mix the terms 'layer' and 'role' cos as I wrote the code role seemed a more natural term, layer was kinda ambiguous. Role is a crap term it's as ambiguous as 'paradigm shift'. So I'll be changing everything back to 'layer' in the code as soon as I get a chance
# December 11, 2003 11:45 PM

Carl Franklin said:

Wow.

I haven't had time to go back and investigate what happened yet, but I will!

What was the URL of the page that had this instruction on it?
# December 12, 2003 2:12 AM

Scott Galloway said:

Nice Carl, have you tried this with compressing ViewState? - I have tried this, but never got it working...would be pretty useful if someone could...
# December 13, 2003 1:56 PM

alan@cooper.com said:

Carl,

Thanks for inviting me to participate.
---------

All of this is predicated on the assumption that the quality of a program's behavior is somehow related to its collection of functions. That is not true.

A program can be well-behaved with lots of functions, and it can be ill-behaved with few. What makes a user interface good or bad isn't access to more or fewer functions.

A program with good interaction will allow its users to direct it the way you direct your car down the street, not the way you select functions on your home entertainment system (which are univerally poorly designed).

Programmers must solve software construction problems by deconstructing user scenarios down into their constituent functions and then coding them up as such. But to then turn around and present that same scenario back to the user as a decomposed heap of vaguely-related functions does not work very well for the user (notwithstanding the fact that it might work just fine for the programmer). Dividing that decomposed heap up into several--conditionally-hidden--smaller heaps misses the point.

There's a big difference between good programming doctrine and good design doctrine. One does not necessarily imply the other.

Thanx,
Alan
# December 13, 2003 4:02 PM

Carl Franklin said:

This is absolutely true. Alan makes a great point that we ought not to forget.

What I'm describing is a tool to make a particular type of user interface. Just because you use the tool doesn't mean you will design the right UI. Even if you do design a great UI it doesn't mean people will use it, and no tool is a substitute for thinking through the process of making a great UI.

A MUCH more important question than "how will we create a layered user interface?" is "What does the user need to DO with this software, and what will their experience be."

So if you are committed to developing the BEST UI possible, and you decide to using a layered UI tool, your work is just beginning. And, if you were smart, you'd want to get an experienced designer's help.
# December 14, 2003 6:20 PM

Mac Greg said:

Carl, you should try the new Livestats.net by DeepMetrix....100% .NET (sql backend and a touch of SOAP) and uses page embedding to track stats instead of straight log analysis. I think they learned from 6.x, but it has only been out for a week so it's probably too early to tell. If you have a thing against java, it's still in there, but no one's perfect right?
# December 15, 2003 1:57 AM

Carl Franklin said:

Yeah, I've had enough of those guys. If I hear that other people are using it successfully maybe I'll try it. I wasted a ton of time on that product.
# December 15, 2003 2:28 AM

Carl Franklin said:

Update: SecureWebs is no longer hosting the show since MSDN came along.

Also, I'm almost done with the data-driven asp.net version of the .NET Rocks! website. More consistent, faster, and not just one big page!
# December 15, 2003 2:29 AM

SBC said:

great stuff.. now all you have to do is get Dennis to blog!! :-)
# December 15, 2003 7:53 AM

Ashutosh Nilkanth said:

Thanks Carl. The transcript idea is great. Any chance it can be a regular feature for all future shows.
# December 16, 2003 7:07 AM

Mark Kenyon said:

Looks good. Just finished the Robert Greene episode. Hmmm... do you need the canned applause? I don't think you do. Your better without it. Awesome show as always tho.
# December 16, 2003 11:02 AM

Carl Franklin said:

Once the show starts really paying for itself (sponsors) we should be able to do transcripts.
# December 17, 2003 1:07 PM

Wallym said:

While I can appreciate your desire to put this information out, I feel that this is a little too much marketing oriented. Due to the issues that have occurred with Robert McLaws, I would think that a more appropiate post would be something along the lines of:

New Class Schedule at franklins.net

VB.NET Master Class with Carl Franklin (link to additional info)
ASP.NET Master Class with Carl Franklin (link to additional info)
Advanced Sockets in VB .NET! (link to additional info)

Wally
# December 19, 2003 8:40 AM

Carl Franklin said:

Point taken.

Thanks, Wally.

Carl
# December 19, 2003 3:29 PM

Jim Cheseborough (jim*DEL THIS*@Cheseborough.com) said:

Well, I thought it was up 24hr now (and streamed, if you chose that link) right?

Not sure how this "new" system will be any different.

Jim
# December 22, 2003 2:44 PM

Carl Franklin said:

What I'm talking about is more like a radio station, where you connect and you hear what everyone else hears at the same time. It's coming from a single audio source on the server.
# December 22, 2003 2:45 PM

Jim Cheseborough (jim*DEL THIS*@Cheseborough.com) said:

One of the best assets about the internet is that you get content "on demand". Get WHAT you want WHEN you want it. Which is why TiVO is so popular too.

So, to "hear what everyone else hears at the same time"? I don't see that as any advantage. Maybe I'm missing somthing.

Jim
# December 22, 2003 4:28 PM

Carl Franklin said:

Then, my good friend, don't listen to it. :-)

# December 22, 2003 5:06 PM

Shannon J Hager said:

I think it's a good idea. I listen to internet radio pretty often, it's good to NOT have to choose what to hear sometimes, to just tune to the station you know is always good. If it's a repeat I don't want to hear again, I can switch stations or go to the archives.
# December 22, 2003 6:21 PM

Carl Franklin said:

Jim, didn't mean to be a wise-ass. OK, I did, but not in at all in a mean-spirited way. :-)

It's just another way that listeners can enjoy the show. We're not taking the downloads away, just adding another "channel" if you will.

We actually did this because we got so many requests for it, so there are people out there who want it.
# December 22, 2003 6:25 PM

Jim Cheseborough (jim*DEL THIS*@Cheseborough.com) said:

Ok, let's have some fun with this:
So far the best part of this is Shannon saying "it's good to NOT have to choose what to hear sometime"

Why Shannon?

Let's think about this for a moment. Maybe you feel that most websites make you actually DECIDE what link to click on, and of course you might be tired one day perhaps and you just want the computer to pick a link for you.
(I hope your smiling about this right now). So...lets see, we could ask another person in the room to pick a number between 1 and 15, then click on THAT link. We could push the mouse and release it from our hand - the link it ends up closest to, click that one. You could roll dice! No, no...that's too much work.

Anyway, I think you get my point. Do we really need a complex computer program to add randomness to decide what link to click?

If this were a LIVE (maybe a "call in" show!), I could see the usefulness of it.

I'm really looking forward to having some fun reading people's reasons for embracing this.

Take care all and Merry Christmas!!
Jim
# December 23, 2003 4:59 PM

Carl Franklin said:

Jim, Jim, Jim...

The goal is to have a LIVE stream. It's going to be DNR shows for the most part, but we are working toward a goal of having MULTIPLE live shows, call-ins and otherwise, on different topics, not just .NET.

This is phase one of what I hope will be what programmers and other IT professionals will want to listen to while they work.

Again, if you don't like it, don't listen to it. We're not taking down the website, and I'm certainly not forcing anyone to listen to the stream.

Cheers and happy ho-ho-ho to you too!

Carl
# December 23, 2003 7:09 PM

Corey Haines said:

Awesome! It comes in crystal clear and super interesting (currently listening to the interview with Alan Cooper, the inventor of the language that made a career for me). Please keep it up!
Now, just to hope that the stream can make it through the firewall at work.
# December 28, 2003 5:31 PM

Carl Franklin said:

It should. I'm going through port 80
# December 28, 2003 7:47 PM

Don Kiely said:

Hey Carl!

Comes in loud and clear all the way up here in Fairbanks, Alaska! That is, as long as I'm not downloading a fresh version of Office 2003 from MSDN.

I'm looking forward to it! Maybe that's what I'll play during down times during training weeks and before conference sessions....

Hope you're having great holidays!

Don
# December 28, 2003 8:37 PM

Carl Franklin said:

Cool, Don!

My latest idea is to do a morning show for maybe 3 days in a row to get some feedback.

I'd basically do about 2 hours of live call-in, music, and conversation around .NET, and then repeat it throughout the day.
# December 28, 2003 11:26 PM

Corey Haines said:

Looks like I probably can get it with a bit of finessing.
Great, Carl!
BTW, nice description on the stream. :)
# December 29, 2003 12:44 PM

Carl Franklin said:

Did it work through the firewall?
# December 29, 2003 4:23 PM

R said:

We want the tour !!
# December 30, 2003 7:34 AM

SBC said:

What? no cookies for Santa? Season's Greetings..
# December 30, 2003 8:56 AM

Jim Cheseborough (jim*DEL THIS*@Cheseborough.com) said:

HA HA - very funny ("even Jim Cheseborough!"). Am I famous now? Hey, maybe you'll mention me on the show, that would be cool. My last name is pronounced "Chezz-Bro" (no cheese in it!)

Hey Carl, I hope your Christmas was nice.
Always remember that I'm a huge DotNetRocks fan (and no, I'm not fat!).

Jim
# December 30, 2003 9:52 AM

Matt Youmell said:

yep, it does work through firewalls.

Great job. Carl
# December 30, 2003 11:13 AM

Carl Franklin said:

Hehe... cool.

Happy New Year, Jim!

# December 30, 2003 2:10 PM

Aaron Bull said:

Dude,

Will you also provide a mp3 download of the live show afterwards ? With the time differences, Australia might not be awake when the show is is on the air. Some people esp in Australia don't have the internet connection to do the live streaming, and the people I know who listen to dotnet rocks, listen to it in a disconnected mode, i.e mp3 player on the bus, in the car. So a mp3 download would be great!!!
# December 30, 2003 5:18 PM

Aaron Bull said:

Dude,

Will you also provide a mp3 download of the live show afterwards ? With the time differences, Australia might not be awake when the show is is on the air. Some people esp in Australia don't have the internet connection to do the live streaming, and the people I know who listen to dotnet rocks, listen to it in a disconnected mode, i.e mp3 player on the bus, in the car. So a mp3 download would be great!!!
# December 30, 2003 5:18 PM

Carl Franklin said:

Aaron,

We absolutely will provide mp3s for all live content.
# December 30, 2003 5:25 PM

Page Brooks said:

I connected to my XP Box at work from my XP Box at home over a VPN connection. I disconnected my VPN connection while connected to my Work XP Box. After waiting a minute or two I reconnected to the VPN and the Terminal Service session picked right back up, and I had a different IP! So I don't think it has to deal with Windows 2003 Terminal Services, rather it is more of an XP terminal service feature. Cool stuff nevertheless.
# December 30, 2003 9:48 PM

Carl Franklin said:

How cool is that. I never noticed it before.
# December 30, 2003 9:52 PM

Eddy Recio said:

Dang, how many great ideas can a single person have in a month??? You did it again Carl, this is beyond <great/>.

Speaking of Windows Media, I too use the encoder and was wondering why you still use MP3's instead of Windows Media format since it is smaller and seems to have better sound quality.

I had been thinking this for a while, have you thought of talking to a Satellite Radio provider. For those that dont know, I listen to a morning radio on my way to work from Tampa (I am in Orlando). No I dont have Satellite Radio, this is something where this Radio jock worked out with a Clear Channel station( am guessing). However,people call the show all the time from all over the country that get the show through XM. So Satellite subscribers as well as FM channels get the show. So it's possible! Plus you would get paid! Just a thought.
# December 30, 2003 11:09 PM

Carl Franklin said:

Actually I just got an email back from XM radio saying that their programming is all locked in for a while but I should keep in touch. Hm.

I've been talking with them for a while about this. I need everyone to send them email requesting .NET Rocks! That might work.
# December 30, 2003 11:31 PM

Corey said:

Well, in the end, it worked through the firewall fine, but it kept triggering our proxy server to ask me for my password, so I couldn't really listen to it at work. Damn!
# December 31, 2003 6:11 PM

Pete Beech said:

Nice one, Carl - its working through my Pocket PC fine, which is what I usually listen to the show on (all the way from here in Munich, Germany).

As for the regular links to the shows, it looks like you had the Media player streams turned off for each show (I guess due to the bandwidth issues?), and from MSDN its not possible to listen to the stream from the Pocket PC - at least not with Pocket IE. Are there any ways you know of to still listen to it via Pocket PC, short of downloading each episode and transferring it over to the device?

Keep up the good work, great show!
# January 3, 2004 5:29 AM

Carl Franklin said:

Hey Pete - we don't have the streams turned off. You may be behind a firewall, as the regular streams are not using port 80. If we set up a separate server for the streams, I suppose it would work. Let me look into it.
# January 3, 2004 5:51 AM

Pete Beech said:

No, sorry, you're right! - the Windows Media links for the shows work OK.

I assumed the link was just for download but Pocket Windows Media buffers and plays it OK. I hadn't tried it since your servers came back online, with the new ASP.NET interface, etc. - I think there used to be a separate link for the streaming version (?) so I thought that wasn't possible anymore.
# January 3, 2004 1:35 PM

Pete Beech said:

Hey Jim, I'd say its all about serendipity. I just tried the 24 hour stream, and it came up with one of the shows I hadn't heard, and which I didn't think would be that interesting for me. And I ended up learning some great stuff from it, and heard a few really interesting things - quite relevant for what I'm working on at the moment.

Also, I agree totally with Shannon. Knowing what to choose is often overwhelming - so just to turn it on and have a listen sometimes is great. I often listen to the show when doing other stuff around the house, and sometimes I don't want to go through all the archive trying to decide which one would be most interesting. Sometimes I just want to have it going in the background, and see if I pick up some interesting stuff.
# January 3, 2004 1:50 PM

joel said:

Also check your lmhosts file - it nominally is only for lookups of "Windows machines" but if an entry is in there it will be used for address lookup instead of going to dns also...
# January 4, 2004 2:16 PM

Matt Youmell said:

Great show. I learned a lot from your questions and answers (ie. soap is not acronym.)

thanks
# January 5, 2004 11:10 PM

Scott Galloway said:

Yup, did the same thing with Reflector - found out how it's done - in a very rigid manner is unfortunately the answer...
# January 6, 2004 12:28 PM

jan erik said:

You have several new features assosiated with TS in server 2003.
Among them are the keep alive connections group policy setting (rdp 5.2 required)

This setting is useful when a client are connecting via a WAN link or via the Internet. By enabling this GPO the terminal server will check the session state between it and the client instead of the default behavior, which more or less assumes the session state. The benefit realized by enabling keepalive connections is that if there is a network hiccup that causes a break in the network connection between the client and the server the session will be placed into a disconnected state. Should the client attempt to reconnect to the Terminal Server it will connect back to the existing session instead of being forced into a new session. This prevents the client's current work from sitting idle in a session it can no longer reconnect to without administrative intervention...

# January 6, 2004 1:13 PM

jan erik said:

This is a great example of why we need code access security.
How many are browsing while using an admin account?
All code downloaded during a session will run with the prevelegies assosiated with user account.

You can make a sand box structure at your drive(more restrective ntfs rigts), and run windows explorer (or what ever browser you might be using), with the run as service(secondary logon)

at the start menu-->ie-->right click-->run as-->use an account with restricted prevelegies..

You might have seen that server 2003 will not allow browsing with ie, unless you change your security settings
# January 6, 2004 1:28 PM

Brian Baker said:

When I try to open your stream, I get the following error back in WMP:

0xC00D11B6: Cannot play the file

Windows Media Player cannot play the file. A network firewall may be preventing the Player from opening the file by using the User Datagram Protocol (UDP) transport protocol. To play this file, try opening the file without specifying UDP.
# January 6, 2004 2:57 PM

Brian Baker said:

Yup, working great now!
# January 6, 2004 8:36 PM

James said:

I am also having the same ehshell.exe problem. Even after 2 reformats & half a dozen installs, has anyone got any further with this problem? Ive been looking for a solution for weeks :(
# January 12, 2004 9:25 PM

Carl Franklin said:

My solution is to buy a Dell. :-)
# January 12, 2004 9:30 PM

Erlend said:

THis is the same problem that I have been experiencing. I also have the MSDN partner membership, and thougt that I should install wind. media center edt. on a computer I had. I downloaded from microsoft down-site and started installing. Got the same problem with the xp sp1, and when I was finished installing xp media center could not find Iexplorer etc. I would also have liked to add the computer into my domain but that option was also gone..only workgroup was availible. I think maybe there must be something wrong with the version you can download from microsoft download site.

I work as a computer technician and a network-administrator for 3 companies, so you can say I have some experience in installing computers.

if anybody have downloaded the wind. xp MCE from the MSDN web-site and have got it to work please send me a mail to erlen77@hotmail.com

Floppy_a
Norway
# January 13, 2004 10:09 AM

Floppy_a said:

hmmm...I am wondering. Why do people have to come with feedback if they have nothing smart to say. I understand that you have got a problem and is trying to troubleshoot your way to make it work, and that if you have to re-install it doesnt mather because it doesnt work anyway.
I am just wondering if there can be problems with the ISO image we are downloading from the microsoft site.
since I have tryed re-installing the OS several times now, and same error appears. I have also installed XP and wind 2003 server on that same machine (it works fine) so it is no hardware error.

People that do not have downloaded from the MSDN-site is not in the same situation as us, and can therefore not give oss the proper feedback.
# January 13, 2004 10:18 AM

Spanky said:

Same ehshell.exe problem here. Whenever i select TV i get the error, ive tried numerous supposedly compatible cards, all with the same result.

Nobody found a solution?
# January 13, 2004 10:26 AM

Rory said:

I recently installed a divx codec, and the installer, without notifying me, happily installed that "GatorWare" search thing, too.

I was trying to figure out why radom sites were popping up in IE when I wasn't even browsing.

Figured it out, and went temporarily (more) insane.

It's really frustrating when trouble is due a virus - when it's an actual company, though, that's employing such underhanded techniques to push ads in front of your face, it is absolutely infuriating.

Nothing a few minutes of primal scream therapy can't fix, but wow - I know where you're coming from...
# January 15, 2004 11:17 AM

Jim said:

Don't hold back Carl. Tell us how you really feel about these jerks.
# January 16, 2004 8:41 AM

Stuart Laughlin said:

Wahoo! What time is Rory's show going online?
# January 19, 2004 2:25 PM

Carl Franklin said:

Rory's show is almost ready for prime time. Another hour tops
# January 19, 2004 11:47 PM

Not Funny said:

I'm sure Mrs. Clinton now thinks Gandhi joke wasn't too funny either.
# January 20, 2004 1:54 PM

Aaron Bull said:

Hey Carl,

I have a little suggestion, hopefully other blog readers will agree that it's a good idea, but if possible, can you let us know who will be on the show before you record it. As there have been guests on your show, who I would like to ask them a dotnet question or two. We can email you the questions before you record the show, and you can choose a couple to ask the guest.


Cheers

Aaron
# January 20, 2004 5:42 PM

Carl Franklin said:

> I enjoy your show, but I wish you would disagree more often <

I disagree. <g>
# January 21, 2004 8:17 AM

Maxim V. Karpov said:

Carl,
I enjoyed the show with an exceptions some of the comparisions you used!

Did you pick a co-host yet?
# January 21, 2004 12:02 PM

Ed said:

I missed it, why is Mark leaving? Where is he off to? Did he get too excited for ya?
# January 22, 2004 2:37 AM

Carl Franklin said:

Too busy for the likes of us! <g> Really, his MOC training business has taken off and he has to manage it. No time for recording.
# January 22, 2004 8:45 AM

anonymous coward said:

This basically sums up the show....

Carl : Gee Rory, you're so cool
Mark : Yeah, you get me more excited than an alabama tick at a skynnard concert.
Rory : No, you guys are cooler.
Carl : No you are, here let me read from your blog.....

:P
# January 22, 2004 11:19 AM

Rick Childress said:

Not running under an non-admin account would've prevented this from happening....
# January 22, 2004 12:12 PM

Carl Franklin said:

yep. That's the first thing I changed
# January 22, 2004 12:53 PM

Carl Franklin said:

LOL. Yeah, that's about right!
# January 22, 2004 12:54 PM

Ed said:

I was just catching up on past shows and I kind of went in backwards order. I got to the Dan Appleman show from 9/9/02 and I got a kick out of how much has changed from then. For instance the topic of Everette came up and nobody even knew what it was. My oh may how time flies.
# January 22, 2004 5:55 PM

SBC said:

I think '.NET Rocks' can do with a rating system - 'stars', 'thumbs-up' or similar. At the end of year, we can have our own Oscars!
# January 22, 2004 6:04 PM

SBC said:

Are you planning to have a bloggers' beer (or dinner) at the Dutch Tavern when Rory is in town?
# January 25, 2004 5:53 AM

Iain said:

Using www.timezoneconverter.com, because I'm lazy:

12:00:00 Fri Jan 30 2004 in US/Eastern converts to
04:00:00 Sat Jan 31 2004 in Australia/Melbourne

Hm. Can I be bothered staying up that late, or getting up that early? I don't know.

The idea is intriguing, though.
# January 25, 2004 6:05 AM

Wallym said:

Excellent!

I know Bill and Peter. I am going to try and listen in.

Wally
# January 25, 2004 7:18 AM

Carl Franklin said:

You'll still be able to download it.
# January 25, 2004 1:13 PM

Michael Schwarz said:

How can I contact you? Can you give us your skype username?
# January 26, 2004 3:23 AM

Carl Franklin said:

As I said in my first post, We'll publish a page with instructions on how to call in once we get closer to Friday.

As for calling in, we have not done the show live yet, so we have not had an opportunity to have callers. In the past we have called people back who told us they wanted to be callers, but we couldn't get enough callers to do it on a regular basis.
# January 26, 2004 8:40 AM

Kyle T said:

So glad to see you are pumping out shows weekly now. I feel better about myself when I don't listen to Stern on the way to work.
# January 26, 2004 9:59 AM

Carl Franklin said:

Cool! Just wait until you hear the live show!
# January 26, 2004 10:02 AM

Crazy Eric said:

So now that free mug I got with my club .net rocks subscription is a collector's item because it has Mark's name on it. I wonder if I can sell it on ebay for $239? I'm SO EXCITED!
# January 26, 2004 12:21 PM

guercheLE@hotmail.com (Luciano Evaristo Guerche) said:

Dear Carl,

Things have changed a lot in Brazil recently. Information was scarce and now, through internet, I am very glad I can get reach free and valuable resources like msdn.microsoft.com , www.msdnbrasil.com.br , weblogs.asp.net , etc. By the way, I new of .Net Rocks! just recent, only after MSDN started hosting it and it have proved to be a valuable source of information/trends for me.

I am also new to blogging and it seems to me it is an amazing way of communicating. I started reading some blogs through internet and just recentely got acquainted of RSS aggregators. I am using RSS Bandit. I do not now whether there is better free RSS aggregators than it, so if you now of free RSS aggregators share your thougts on it.

I also got interested in your post about Skype. Actually I had already heard of it, but did not give it much attention because I already use MSN Messenger, ICQ and Yahoo Messenger and thought it was just another akin in the arena. Anytime you start calling or letting people call during .Net Rocks! recordings, let me know about, so I might manage timezone and agenda to get connected to .Net Rocks!

Best regards,

Luciano Evaristo Guerche
Jacarei, SP, Brazil
# January 26, 2004 12:28 PM

Rory said:

What a treat :)

I hope my flight isn't knocked out due to weather - this is sounding rather a bit more awesomer even than it already was (so much that grammar is failing me)...
# January 26, 2004 10:04 PM

Matt Youmell said:

Hey Carl,
I can't wait to hear the show on Friday. The Skype software looks cool. I did a quick google group search to see what people say about it. I came across some posts referencing a part of the license agreement that I found a little scary:

Paragraph 9:
(c) THE SKYPE SOFTWARE IS UTILIZED AND DISTRIBUTED BY THIRD PARTIES
WHICH ARE UNRELATED TO SKYPER. YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT INSTALLATION OF
THE SKYPE SOFTWARE WILL ALLOW THIRD PARTIES WHO ARE NOT AFFILIATED
WITH SKYPER THE ABILITY TO COMMUNICATE WITH YOUR COMPUTER ("OUTSIDE
PARTIES"). YOU AGREE THAT SKYPER WILL NOT BE LIABLE FOR ANY DAMAGE,
CLAIM OR LOSS OF ANY KIND WHATSOEVER, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO
INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES AS STATED IN
PARAGRAPH 9(a) ABOVE, RESULTING FROM ANY ACTIONS OR OMISSIONS OF THE
OUTSIDE PARTIES.

third parties access to my computer? are all eula(s) like this? if so i have to start reading them.
# January 26, 2004 11:46 PM

Carl Franklin said:

>> third parties access to my computer?

That's what happens when you talk to people with Skype.
# January 27, 2004 12:06 AM

private Krankenkasse said:

Really cool Idee! Ralf
# January 27, 2004 6:23 AM

Crazy Eric said:

I wrote the previous post on my ipaq while sitting on the crapper, so I apologize for its irreverence. I really wish Mark the best of luck with his business and love club .net rocks.
# January 27, 2004 3:49 PM

Carl Franklin said:

> I think '.NET Rocks' can do with a rating system

It has one. It's called the blogsphere <g>
# January 27, 2004 4:31 PM

Scott said:

uh, Rory you mean the free bundled version of DivX that says "it's free because it's supported by adware"?

The one that says "This will install GAIN on your computer if you install it"

Can't blame the company if you click the "next" button without reading the site.
# January 27, 2004 7:17 PM

bliz said:

You're going to put Rory on the air LIVE! Can't wait to hear this!!!
# January 27, 2004 7:23 PM

Maxim V. Karpov said:

Carl,
I listen to Bill Vaughn show it rocked!

I am looking forward to next show, so keep up good work.
# January 27, 2004 9:33 PM

Maxim V. Karpov said:

Real-life interaction is good. Ads are ads though regardless of the format.
There is a saying "Free cheese is only in mouse trap" :)

I thought Active Reports ads were pretty good!



# January 27, 2004 9:38 PM

Damian said:

I think it's a great idea.
# January 27, 2004 9:42 PM

Carl Franklin said:

Cool!

Tune in on Friday!
# January 27, 2004 9:42 PM

SBC said:

more prizes and give-aways with the ads may do the trick also.. :-)
# January 27, 2004 10:06 PM

Strafe said:

Whatever you need to do to keep the show coming! Actually I think I would be more receptive to hear developers talk about their product (infomercial like) than a 2 minute ad (which I occasionally fast forward thru anyway :blush:) Hmmm, maybe thats how I ended up with this rotisserie grill?!
# January 27, 2004 10:12 PM

Aaron Bull said:

It really comes down to the host of the show, if there attitude is "i need the $$ so i'll be really nice" then the ads will suck.

But if you question the product, have tried the product out, try and find out what it can and can't do, then everyone will benefit. Also suggest getting a developer of the product in for the ad, not just there salesman, could be more interesting,
with questions of "what were the main challenges etc", "what problems did you have porting your code from vb to dotnet" etc etc.


Just my usual 2 cents worth.

Aaron
# January 27, 2004 10:15 PM

Carl Franklin said:

Good idea! Get the vendors to give one away on the show.
# January 27, 2004 10:18 PM

Jim said:

I think thats a cool Idea. One other sugestion... Get rid of that "Girl" who does your show intro! She/He sounds really scary!
# January 27, 2004 10:20 PM

Carl Franklin said:

> if you question the product, have tried the product out, try and find out what it can and can't do, then everyone will benefit <

The problem is that it wouldn't be fair to the listeners for me to spend an hour or two with a product and form an opinion. That's why we've only had sponsors who have products we have used and like.

So, maybe an idea is for the vendor to bring along with them a developer who is using the product, and they can give a testimonial. That would be worth something to everybody, right?
# January 27, 2004 10:31 PM

Alan McBee said:

I have nothing against ads, per se. Only against ads for stuff that is clearly only randomly thrown at me. Ads about products/services that are in line with my field of work deserve at least a minute or two of my time. Sometimes they actually have their intended effect with me: I learn about a product that does something I need to do.

So what about having the ads, sure, (5 minutes tops), but instead of having it just an audio version of a print ad, covering all the bullet points that I will find out the home page of the web site anyway, suggest something different to the advertiser. Like, letting them discuss why one key feature sets their product apart.

Instead of just, "It saves time! Look at the web site! It organizes your Rolodex! Look at the web site! We won an award! It walks the dog!" you have more depth to the ad, rather than breadth. "Out of four products in our market, ours is the only one that walks the dog <i>and</i> scoops the poop -- something you won't find up on the home page of our web site. How does it work? We'll tell you. We modified a wet vac by attaching a COM interface to it, and harnessed it to our dog walking engine, which was built entirely in C#. Both the walker and the scooper's functionality are exposed through a Web Service. The New York Dog Walking Association chose our product and used it to walk sixty dogs at once. Since our competitors don't scoop the poop, thirty dogs were unmanageable for them. Poop would've been everywhere. But our product kept the sidewalks poop-free for the the duration of the longest walk."

Well, I guess there's a good reason I'm a software wonk and not an ad man.

Good luck, I think it's a good idea.
# January 27, 2004 11:03 PM

Johannes Hansen (DK) said:

That is a great idea! It will be much better than the current cheesy ads. Keep up the good work... .Net rocks! ;)
# January 27, 2004 11:11 PM

Edneeis said:

I like the developer using the product idea. Kind of like a product success story. Maybe if any listeners have had success with those products they could even write in or be incorporated in some how. I do get the sense that the ads aren't a sell your soul type situation where you let anyone advertise just to pay the bills.

PS I like the intro girl (in a purely platonic way)
# January 27, 2004 11:22 PM

Chris Kunicki said:

Actually, I think hearing from different vendors (even though they are paying) is interesting. I especially like when you put your take on the matter.
# January 27, 2004 11:57 PM

Carl Franklin said:

Thanks for the great comments. I want to change the format, and I think this is a great way to do it.
# January 28, 2004 1:45 AM

Graham Pengelly said:

I like cheese... Not so sure about poop though... Sounds like a good idea to me. Whatever keeps you in ribs and keeps the show coming.
# January 28, 2004 3:35 AM

Gabriele Ponti said:

Only if related to the topic of the show.
# January 28, 2004 8:17 AM

Chris Jackson said:

VC++: Intro_girl++;
VB: Intro_girl = Intro_girl + 1

I like the idea of giving some time to sponsors to talk about their products. Maybe you could ask for questions to be submitted on your blog that developers would like to ask the sponsor concerning the functionality of their products and then have the sponsor address those during the show.
# January 28, 2004 9:17 AM

Daniel Auger said:

I think it would be much better than the run-of-the-mill type ads, as long as it isn't just, like Alan McBee said, an "audio version of a print ad". Developers don't care about sales hype, because we know most of it is BS anyway.
# January 28, 2004 9:45 AM

Eddie Gulley said:

Ads are ads, but given that we really want .Net Rocks to stay on the air (?) go for whatever you have to to keep it alive and kickin. BTW: Awesome show!
# January 28, 2004 10:41 AM

Paul Sturgill said:

I don't mind the short ads, but your idea to do a more in depth spot on the company and it's product is a great idea especially if they start giving away products.

# January 28, 2004 12:04 PM

Eddy Recio said:

Carl,

Some of my favorite ads were the cheesy ones you use to have about Franklins.NEt, specially since you use to play beats I assume were created by you, some were really good. Like Tim Huc mentioned on a show once, listeners including myself cant wait to fly out to New London, CT and have lunch with you guys up there. Having said that, it is a great idea, what you're proposing. I am sure like most we'd rather have a few ads per show and keep a good thing going. After all if it bothers anyone that much than fasforward thru it. Also, I wanted to share with you and you can pass this on to the vendors, that most.NET components we have bought in my company have been a result of seeing them in some form of ad mostly through say, magazine ads. Meaning advertising does work and once you hear a name then if you need it you check them out.

The only potential problem I see is, that since it is not pre-recorded or the same everytime, that each subsequent week the sponsor would have less to say.

Just a small concern,

Like always keep on Rocking!!!
# January 28, 2004 12:21 PM

Carl Franklin said:

Thanks, Eddy.

I agree that we would not be able to do an extended segment with the same sponsor week after week. I imagine we'd still have some sponsors who would want to do the traditional ad spot (obviously for less $$) on a regular basis.
# January 28, 2004 1:44 PM

Cos Callis said:

Maybe you could post who the sponsors are going to be in advance so we could send in some or our questions in advance. (The "Cheesy" ads are good too...)
# January 28, 2004 11:41 PM

Chris Jackson said:

Carl - cool!

I'll be listening. Should be a great show!

.NetRocks On!
# January 29, 2004 8:54 AM

M Kenyon said:

Hey, I like the questions idea. Not just force fed info. Also, I'm sorry, but the intro girl just doesn't sound... right. She sounds like she's reading from a card and forcing a smile.

Maybe Datagrid Girl (Marcie Robillard) could do your intro.
# January 29, 2004 10:34 AM

Ian Leff said:

I vote keep the intro girl.

I use Active Reports.net and really like it. It would be very cool to hear from their architect and/or main developers.

As snoop dog would say, "Keep it real..."

Ian
# January 29, 2004 1:51 PM

Scott Galloway said:

Just don't let him sing...:-)
# January 30, 2004 9:40 AM

Kerry said:

Bummer... very popular show, no doubt. The server is busy. :(
# January 30, 2004 12:23 PM

Joe Grenier said:

Great job gentlemen! I would've loved to have called in, but I'm at work. So, I love the idea of a midnight show!!! I'm always up late coding...oh crap, did I just admit that pubicly. I must admit, I was skeptical at first about the "long form" ads, but it was very informative (having the guests ask questions of the advertiser was a good thing). I give it a thumbs up.

I love the live format...excellent job on your first show Rory...and keep the live stuff coming!!
# January 30, 2004 2:13 PM

Corey said:

Awesome job! I looked around for my old headset, but no luck finding it. I did download Skype, though, so maybe next time (if I'm home sick then, too).
# January 30, 2004 2:15 PM

Joe Grenier said:

OK, I admitted it "publicly".
# January 30, 2004 2:15 PM

Scott Glasgow said:

Good job and the idea of a late show is a good one as not everyone can call in during business hours.
# January 30, 2004 2:20 PM

Robert Scoble said:

I listened to a bit of it and it was excellent. Will listen to the rest when it's online.
# January 30, 2004 2:26 PM

James Avery said:

I got to listen to the first hour and it was awesome, keep up the great work. I really like the new ad format, much better than the old ads.
# January 30, 2004 2:39 PM

Ed said:

Great show and I love the idea of a DevTalk late show. I too am often up late coding. So if there is a support group or anything for people like us, then give me the 12 steps.

I also don't have a headset or mic during the day but should at home at night.
# January 30, 2004 2:39 PM

Jeff Julian said:

I really enjoyed the live show. Some of the calls were hard to hear, but other than that, I love this format.
# January 30, 2004 2:41 PM

Joe Sarna said:

Great show, I got so interested that I almost forgot to go register my car (last day today). Had to run out for 15 minutes to get that done.
# January 30, 2004 2:48 PM

Bill Vaughn said:

I enjoyed doing these talks with Carl. He's the qunitesential professional and host. He always makes the guest seem welcome and at ease. Ask me again anytime to talk on any subject from helicopters to jets (so to speak).
# January 30, 2004 2:54 PM

Cos Callis said:

For those who could connect.. I was able to connect before the show, but as soon as you went live all I could get was protocol not supported error from Window Media Player (I tried many times throughout the 2 hours... rebooted... Had no problem connecting to other forms of streaming audio or video...) Any thoughts?

Looking forward to hearing the rerun...
# January 30, 2004 3:03 PM

Carl Franklin said:

Hm. I don't know what the deal was. I'm going to be examining the logs to see how to tweak the server. Although I haven't had any other bad reports yet.
# January 30, 2004 3:11 PM

Dan said:

I had the same connection problem...Cant way to get it when it comes online.

Thanks you Carl
# January 30, 2004 3:13 PM

Marc LaFleur said:

I just glad I was so quick to remember System.Net.DNS. I sometimes astound myself with my memory. ;-)
# January 30, 2004 3:14 PM

Marc LaFleur said:

Hmmm, that should "I'm just" rather than "I just". Sometimes a also astound myself with my inability to use my native language beyond a 3rd grade level. :(
# January 30, 2004 3:15 PM

Carl Franklin said:

LOL. Hey, if anyone else had this connection problem, please tell me. I want to see if there's a connection limit imposed by default. It definitely wasn't a bandwidth problem. We have 10Mbits
# January 30, 2004 3:16 PM

Stuart Laughlin said:

I couldn't connect, either, but I'm fairly certain my corporate firewall/proxy was to blame. So +1 on the idea of a nighttime show.
# January 30, 2004 3:50 PM

Marc LaFleur said:

As you know should know Carl, no one ever "Rocks" at noon. All good rocking happens late at night. So I second that.

Besides, the only thing better than a geek call-in program would be a drunken geek call-in program.
# January 30, 2004 3:55 PM

Maxim V. Karpov said:

See the link for comment
# January 30, 2004 4:20 PM

Graham Pengelly said:

Enjoyed the show. Downloaded Skype but forgot to pick up a headset so missed out on the prizes. I was listening in UK so the show was on at 5.00pm which was fine for me. Still missing Mark's laid back drawl but Rory was a worthy replacement. Very amusing... Nice one gentlemen...
# January 30, 2004 6:22 PM

Scott said:

Maxim's Post is much better than my post. Much more detail. :)

Think of mine as a sprig of parsley on the plate of Maxim's post. It's just there for decoration, you can eat it but it's not very filling. Maxim's is a meal.

</threadjacking>
# January 30, 2004 7:02 PM

Rob Zelt said:

Live is GREAT! Listener interaction adds an exciting new element to the show. I would like to see this become a regular event.
# January 31, 2004 11:22 AM

Ariel Popovsky said:

I listened to almost the entire show from Argentina. Excelent as always.
Do you know how many people were connected?
# January 31, 2004 3:02 PM

Carl Franklin said:

The most we ever had at one time was 81 listeners. I think that's pretty good for blogs and email being the only advertising.
# January 31, 2004 4:44 PM

David Cumps said:

Very nice pictures! Great installation you got there :)
# January 31, 2004 5:06 PM

Dan Appleman said:

It was a pleasure being on the show. Just wanted to add a comment about passwords.

Hashed passwords are a great way to store passwords. The one problem with them is, if you have a site where you allow a user to recover a password (have it emailed to them after some verification process), it won't work - because you don't have the original password either.

Personally, I'd suggest staying with hashed passwords and using the approach of sending out a newly created random password once the user verifies (and ask them to change it).

But if you must return the actual password, you'll need to use symetrical encryption. This means storing the master key locally on the server - meaning it's vulnerable. But at least you make things more difficult, in that someone would have to steal both the password database and the private key in order to see the passwords.
# January 31, 2004 7:02 PM

Stuart said:

Hey that was quick; thanks!
# February 1, 2004 11:47 AM

G. Andrew Duthie said:

Looks like the site is currently down...hope someone's working on it, as I'm eager to see Carl's studio/office. :-)

# February 1, 2004 2:49 PM

Carl Franklin said:

It's back up now! - Sorry
# February 1, 2004 3:05 PM

JUstin King said:

Awesome show guys, one of the best flowing shows yet. Late should would be good and that way won't have to get up at 4am to listen :)
# February 1, 2004 4:57 PM

CEllis said:

Great show!

being that in the last year i just started washing my hair after 19 years of c coding. i found that when it comes to wireless security you should use the MAC addresses and program them into the AP's list of accepted devices. this way unless someone can obtain and spoof your MAC's they cant get service from your AP.

when adding this with use of encryption by your AP it makes it very difficult for anyone to suck your bandwidth.
# February 1, 2004 6:15 PM

Paul said:

Awesome show - Friday's @ 9 AM PST, it's on my calendar.
# February 2, 2004 1:53 AM

Gabriele Ponti said:

I was one of the 82, and I find it hard to believe we were so few. Could it be because of the time? Anyway, I'm confident it's going to be a success in the future.
# February 2, 2004 7:59 AM

Eddy Recio said:

How awesome is that!!!
Specially for those that were unable to listen to the 1st live show.
# February 2, 2004 9:35 AM

Rory said:

Gabriele -

It turns out that we actually had a couple hundred people tune in, but just not at the same time - the peak *simultaneous* users was 82, but not the total across the board.

We found that out a day after the broadcast, so that's cool :)
# February 2, 2004 12:56 PM

Damian said:

This is great, I missed the live show (being in a different hemisphere) so it's great to be able to listen.

It's a shame I couldn't listen live, I would have had a great database horror story for you...
# February 2, 2004 5:02 PM

j mog said:

hey guys. i need help with termserv. once i have the server, how do i connect to it via a client? thanks! i probably won't check back here so please email/msn: jaskolak@bellsouth.net or AIM: jasonmog

:)
# February 2, 2004 6:18 PM

j mog said:

oops, email: jaskolka@bellsouth.net
# February 2, 2004 6:19 PM

Mark Dunn said:

I was able to listen to the recorded show last night. The new format is wicked awesome cool!!! I'm *excited* for you and Rory moving forward. In fact, I haven't been this excited since I was with a group of rednecks touring the Coors plant in Golden, CO.
# February 2, 2004 6:56 PM

M Kenyon said:

Speaking of Coders gone author... whatever happened to Stone's Way (or something like that). It used to be on MSDN a few years ago.

If you get a chance, check out my BLOG. Posted a funny link about the Sco/Linux battle.
# February 3, 2004 9:19 AM

James Avery said:

Why the decision to bleep out the "F" word? Seems kind of silly, I think your audience if mature enough to handle it. :)

Awesome show though!

-James
# February 3, 2004 2:55 PM

Carl Franklin said:

Well, we don't bleep it during the live show, and the only reason to bleep the archive is that MSDN is hosting us, and I don't think it reflects well on them for us to blatantly use the F-word in the show.
# February 3, 2004 3:07 PM

Nicholas Sing said:

Hey over here in Australia over 500,000 people lost there jobs because of the same things.
# February 4, 2004 3:24 AM

marco said:

Listening to the mp3 now.
Great stuff.
Whoever engineered it did GREAT work.
I'm almost getting the same vibe
listening as I got sitting in live.
You really are "there."

marco
# February 4, 2004 9:02 PM

marco said:

For those of you who got

protocol not supported error from Windows Media Player

what you need to do is find
the button that says "turn
off SSL" and check that.

j/k

marco
# February 4, 2004 9:15 PM

chad said:

The video was great. Is there any place that we can download the code from or could you send it to me at cdalton22@carolina.rr.com?


# February 4, 2004 11:17 PM

SBC said:

Carl.. terrific idea in going 'live'.. but don't have any 'wardrobe malfunctions'.. :-)
# February 5, 2004 10:44 AM

Carl Franklin said:

LOL. The world would be even MORE shocked if that happened to us!
# February 5, 2004 1:41 PM

Randy said:

Here's another one for ya: "Memoirs of an Italian Geek"
# February 5, 2004 2:18 PM

Justin King said:

The show damn well rocks, when I get over to the U.S definitely going to book into a franklins master class for some cool action.
# February 5, 2004 5:11 PM

Iain said:

I. Want. That. Sprint. Card. Thing.

Now.

Damnnable behind-the-times australia.
# February 5, 2004 7:57 PM

Nicholas Sing said:

Gotta see that man! .NET does rock!
# February 6, 2004 2:45 AM

Nicholas Sing said:

Must haves to see!
# February 6, 2004 2:45 AM

Søren said:

Having just heard the show I got to thinking about the feature difference between VB.NET and C#. What I really don't understand is why C# doesn't have that nice background compile feature that we love so much from VB.NET.

Are we going to see background compile in C# any time soon?
# February 10, 2004 7:29 AM

Maxim V. Karpov said:

Carl,
I started with Quick Basic years ago and never converted to any other language. I enjoyed to the show completely! Rock on Carl! It was a very good idea of you being interviewed this way people will know what you do and where you coming from.

Maxim

[www.ipattern.com do you?]
# February 10, 2004 8:07 AM

Maxim V. Karpov said:

Carl,
You rock, do you have more of mixes like this one?

Thanks, Maxim

[www.ipattern.com do you?]
# February 10, 2004 10:07 AM

Rory said:

It's funny that you should mention drum sounds - when I first listened to that clip (when you pointed me to it a couple days ago), I actually took note of the drum sounds.

Given that you only had two mics, you did quite the job - especially with the crash, which didn't peak and came off smoothly.

Pretty cool.
# February 10, 2004 4:13 PM

Carl Franklin said:

I actually figured out the mic placement by sitting at the drums with headphones and moving the mics around until it sounded great.
# February 10, 2004 4:49 PM

Rory said:

"Now we have to do a show from there, Rory..."

Well, if you want to twist my arm about it :)

I guess I could find it in my heart to go to warm, sunny, pleasant Southern California in May...
# February 10, 2004 6:53 PM

Joel said:

"don't need to spend more than $200"... True enough, but if you compared the two mics you used to two really high class mics in the same mic positions the difference would be pretty noticeable. (Don't get me wrong - you clearly were listening carefully to get the kit to sound like this with the pair of mics you used - good job!)

If you ever get the chance to have your hands on a pair of Earthworks SR77's or omni's I would encourage you to try the experiment again and then compare. There are plenty of possibilities - but all the ones that would be 'clearly different', including the Earthworks are in the $700-2000 range (oops - so much for $200).

You might find it interesting to also mic the kick, and then you can mix an eq'd bit of that back in to get the head snap and bottom without bringing in more room sound or altering the feel of the rest of the kit. I have used the Rode NT3 condensers for kick, and for under $150 it's pretty surprising. Makes a good overhead mic also.

As you've pointed out, mic placement is critical to getting good results. If more people would be willing to spend time to get the placement just right there would be a lot less need for fancy gadgets later on in the process ;)

Out of curiosity, what system are you recording on?
# February 10, 2004 8:36 PM

Carl Franklin said:

I actually have a pair of AT4033s, and about 9 other mics. I normally mic the whole kit with various mics, but I was really surprised at what cheap mics well placed could do. I thought the sound I got was perfect for the tune.

I have 2 presonus Digimax units, a couple Laylas, and I record using Cool Edit Pro 2.1 (usually)
# February 10, 2004 8:44 PM

Nicholas Sing said:

I started Quick Basic on my Playstation 2 but I wish I had of waited for X-Box to come out!
Its available in the European and Australasian versions of the Ps2.
Pretty cool check it out www.yabasic.co.uk
is basically the nerds website and I've forgotten the official one.
# February 11, 2004 3:03 AM

Nicholas Sing said:

They had a Tech-Ed over here in Australia. But... It was a long way away from where I live and I had school to conduct with!
# February 11, 2004 3:06 AM

Nicholas Sing said:

Pity it isn't being done over here in Australia
# February 11, 2004 4:35 AM

guercheLE@hotmail.com (Luciano Evaristo Guerche) said:

Carl,

Have you ever thought of broadcasting .Net Rocks! in video/audio format? I enjoy .Net Rocks! very much and just came to my mind how it would be compared to .Net Show! and MSDN TV.

Regards,

Luciano Evaristo Guerche
Jacarei, SP, Brazil
# February 11, 2004 8:18 AM

Aaron Weiker said:

Congradulations. BTW, I also loved your last show. The three of you made a great couple and I can't wait until next week to hear the next installment.
# February 12, 2004 11:27 PM

Damien McGivern said:

And there's me thinking it was just me and a couple of other regulars. Been listening since the first show - I wonder how many downloaded that on the first week? Do you have that stat handy? Keep up the good work Carl & Co. - it's a good laugh, informative and much appreciated.
# February 13, 2004 9:28 PM

Carl Franklin said:

I think there were less than 50 downloads of the first show in the first week. I remember being excited when the download count reached 300!
# February 13, 2004 9:38 PM

Nicholas Sing said:

Yeah on my very old site I used to race my brother for the highest stats!
# February 14, 2004 1:50 AM

Corey said:

Well, a few of those are mine, as I've started downloading the old ones, burning them to CD and enjoying them in my car. People definitely look at me a bit oddly when I sit there at the light laughing and (okay, I admit it) sometimes commenting how true something is. :)
# February 14, 2004 4:44 PM

Carl Franklin said:

Just so everyone knows, I bought a new Media Center PC. Problem solved.
# February 15, 2004 12:36 AM

Nicholas Sing said:

Cool! I'm listening to it right now!!!
# February 16, 2004 11:23 PM

Jason Mauss said:

hey Carl, I saw some pics of your "studio" that you posted for the first live show you did. Could you tell your listeners the specs of the gear in that room? I saw a bunch of LCD's and other interesting stuff (instruments). My "home office" includes:

Toshiba Laptop
HP Laptop
2 PC "Towers"
21" Sony Trinitron - display for both PC's
Copier/Scanner/Faxer/Printer Machine
1 Electric Guitar
1 Acoustic Guitar
Practice Amp + Effects pedals
27" Sony Vega TV - for the XBox ;-)
# February 18, 2004 6:43 AM

Jason Mauss said:

heh, that's awesome. I hope business travel takes me out towards New London sometime. Love to stop by and check that out.
# February 18, 2004 10:40 PM

Carl Franklin said:

My door is always open!
# February 18, 2004 11:00 PM

Rob said:

Floppy - Kinda has an oppurtunity for a slam, but hey - You mention users having nothing smart to say, well, for that matter, half of your reply wasn't "smart" either and wasted my time reading it. The ISO probably works. Just because XP and Server 2003 work, doesn't mean that the hardware supports XP Media Center, as I found that my hardware supported XP, 2003, and others, but not MCE - Installed the same disks to another machine which met the hardware standards for MCE and the software installed just fine.

People with the "smart" questions, probably are the same people who don't jump to conclusions just because "two operating systems worked fine" -

Smart is taking a "systimatic" approach and not just "winging" it.

FAQ areas are for all kinds of people, both "smart" and people lacking some knowledge. Smart is not being afraid of making a post. "SMart" would have been me not wasting my time replying to this thread. But even smart people make mistakes. LOL. Which seems to be my case, according to my 5 year old daughter.

Everyone else - Thanks for the help and keep posting both smart and whatever else floats your boat.

By the way - Your quote - "People that do not have downloaded from..."

A Smart sentence would have been closer to = "People who haven't downloaded from MSDN...."

Oops... I've used up my quota of smart things to say.

Night all.
# February 20, 2004 1:44 AM

Jason Mauss said:

It actually sounded interesting until the "Lots of traveling" part. Thanks to all the post 9/11 security measures, I won't go near a job description like that.
# February 20, 2004 2:55 AM

Rich C said:

With the intense northwest focus lately, wouldn't it be easier for you to move here instead of Rory moving there :-)?

Looking forward to the show!
# February 20, 2004 4:23 AM

Nicholas Sing said:

I so so cannot wait!
# February 20, 2004 4:54 AM

Scott said:

Carl,

A quick suggestion might be to field questions over IM as well as Skype (sp?).

The noon EST time assures that almost anyone listening in the US will be at work (or should be looking for work :)

-Scott
# February 20, 2004 7:14 AM

Dan Wygant said:

Hi Carl,
My Newsletter Editor for HUNTUG.org & VSdotNetUG.org sent me this URL (she's a big fan of yours & requested you to appear for April - Thnx!).

Anyhow, if it doesn't require reloc I would love to hear more. My personal goal is to do OOP forever and a day, in a good way; so many programmers/architects don't have the firm grasp on OO even after years of development.
# February 20, 2004 7:53 AM

Carl Franklin said:

We are now taking *phone calls*, Skype calls, AND regular old text messages.
# February 20, 2004 8:04 AM

AndrewSeven said:

"apparently"
What does that mean? ;)
# February 20, 2004 8:41 AM

Dan said:

I get the following error

Windows Media Player cannot play the file because the specified protocol is not supported. In the Open URL dialog, try opening the file using a different transport protocol (for example, "http:" or "rtsp:").

Any suggestions?
# February 20, 2004 11:41 AM

Carl Franklin said:

We're having technical difficulties with the live stream. Stay tuned
# February 20, 2004 1:24 PM

Carl Franklin said:

It turns out that moving our encoder machine into the studio was most likely the culprit of our mayhem today. We only had 40 or so listeners, and we had a big intranet bottleneck. We only had 5Mbits out at the peak, and we have 10, so that wasn't it.

Anyway, we're going to have a testing and optimizing session over the weekend. The finished show sounds pretty good save for a few epoisodes of feedback, which we can mostly clean up.

Carl
# February 20, 2004 3:22 PM

Nicholas Sing said:

Wouldn't you still require a T3? I thought a 5MB line wouldn't be fast enough for the amount of listeners you guys get.
# February 20, 2004 5:32 PM

Rory said:

"Sounds like the frenchman is feeling a little better?"

The frenchman is just about to pass out :)

Thought I'd check Carl's blog for any updates on the technical difficulties, but my stamina is quickly reaching its end. I'm beat... Can't wait for this stupid flu thing to be totally over.
# February 20, 2004 5:51 PM

Edneeis said:

Yeah my player was buffering out too (that sounds like an innuendo) but I'm looking forward to the recorded version. What I heard sounded good.
# February 20, 2004 5:58 PM

Nicholas Sing said:

Man this has been one massive over problem.
# February 20, 2004 6:11 PM

Will Nowak said:

The parts of the show that I could catch were great, but I can understand the diffuculties. At first I thought it was just the cable at my house, but when I went to the school and had the same problem, I knew it couldnt be me. Geoff and I had a nice long discussion about the show over some McDonalds, and was interesting to get filled in on the parts of the show i missed
# February 21, 2004 1:22 AM

Carl Franklin said:

> Wouldn't you still require a T3?

We actually have 10 Mb but only 5Mb was utilized.

We're going to do some reading, tweaking, and testing over the weekend.
# February 21, 2004 10:18 AM

Cos Callis said:

Carl,
I was (finally) able to tune into the .NET Rocks show once I moved to an address outside of my firewall... What ports are you broadcasting on? (I know you don't have them memorized, but I am able to stream audio/video from a variety of other sources so I'm guessing your doing something different...)

Overall, another great show, thanks.

Cos
# February 21, 2004 11:57 AM

Cos Callis said:

Dan (and Carl),
I had the same error until I moved outside of the firewall. My guess is you are broadcasting on a blocked port...

HTH,
Cos
# February 21, 2004 12:00 PM

Carl Franklin said:

Interesting. We were supposed to be streaming over port 80. I will check that out.
# February 21, 2004 12:23 PM

Nicholas Sing said:

Just on the subject of .NET Carl www.icsharp.com there #develop is a free IDE compiler which supports VB,C# and Java. Sadly though it doesn't have ASP.NET support but combined with ASP.NET Web Matrix you don't need to spend hundreds of dollors or even sometimes thousands on Visual Studio.NET.
# February 21, 2004 7:36 PM

Cos Callis said:

The Http link handles the initial connection, but then it is redirected to a range of ports to handle the actual streaming. What ever streaming audio server you are using should tell you (and allow you to set) the ports you are going to use. Hope this helps.

Cos
# February 21, 2004 8:12 PM

Carl Franklin said:

Right. And, we have it set up on the media server to use HTTP. I have reports from people behind firewalls that they heard it ok, except that it was broken up.
# February 21, 2004 8:14 PM

Jason Mauss said:

Hook me up, brotha.
# February 21, 2004 9:02 PM

Cos Callis said:

Just say "When"
# February 21, 2004 10:49 PM

Julie Lerman said:

Just an FYI - I have DSL and was getting a ton of buffering. Unfortunately it was enough to make it much too difficult to listen to. Could be something on my end. I have no idea if anyone else experiecned that as well. Just wanted to let you know in case its useful info.
# February 21, 2004 10:53 PM

Carl Franklin said:

Julie, it wasn't you. Everyone was experiencing it. It was on our end. That's why we're doing our test tonight.
# February 21, 2004 11:29 PM

Carl Franklin said:

Almost done moving and setting up the server. We should be ready to do the test in an hour or so.
# February 21, 2004 11:35 PM

Cos Callis said:

when ready to test, what url should we connect to? will you post a link?
# February 22, 2004 12:55 AM

Cos Callis said:

connected and streaming well...
# February 22, 2004 1:31 AM

Carl Franklin said:

If you do a netstat -n and you can see that it's streaming over http. It was NOT before. Doh!
# February 22, 2004 1:38 AM

Carl Franklin said:

I'll leave this up and running... going to bed. Nite all.
# February 22, 2004 1:48 AM

Rory said:

I'm listening to the stream right now, and it's crystal-clear - no stutters, no skipping.

Good job, man :)
# February 22, 2004 2:45 AM

Dominic Hopton said:

Well, Windows does support more than one mouse and keyboard.

No, you dont see two cursors on the screen, 'cause thats daft. What an application can do (on XP+) is get a handle to an additional mouse (or keyboard), and read the movement information from it, and do what you want.

I call see an massive HCI issue with your suggesttion - I only have two hands. MOving two mice in sync for something like a fader is hard for my arms to manage, but easy for fingers 'cause they are hinged at the knuckle.

If you want that experiance, either wacom tablet type device/touch screen, or (my preferance) a mixing desk that is just a USB device that plugs into DirectPlay and allows all the knobs and dials to be reconfigured.
# February 22, 2004 12:36 PM

Carl Franklin said:

I'll have to look into the XP input thing. Is there a specific API for it? Does .NET have a library to support that? It's interesting, for sure.

As for your suggestion to just get a mixing desk controller, let me further explain. The point isn't that I'm trying to solve the mixing desk problem. I'm thinking of many applications where you need more than one simultaneous screen input in a touch-screen application. A keyboard has keys such as Ctrl that when you hold it down, modifies other keys. Nothing like that exists for the mouse, because the mouse is the only device we use for input. With any touch-screen application (for example, a submarine navigation console, or any kind of industrial controller panel) you should be able to hold down one button while turning a knob, or grab two faders with two different fingers and adjust them independently.
# February 22, 2004 2:05 PM

Nicholas Sing said:

I hate to say this but I got error C00D1198 I personally no nothing about audio streaming.
# February 23, 2004 4:39 AM

Carl Franklin said:

It's not currently streaming anything. We'll have it up on Friday before the show.
# February 23, 2004 4:45 AM

M Kenyon said:

Hmm... interesting... I guess, you would also need apps requiring such device input. Future input devices too, where you could use two hands (gaming gloves for two hand virtual reality)
Or let's just say we want to put a touch screen keyboard on a tablet PC. How do they do that now for things like capitalization? (Shift and key)
# February 23, 2004 9:20 AM

M Kenyon said:

K, Um... it's still not streaming, and... umm... (Cough noLinks cough...)
What's up?
# February 23, 2004 9:23 AM

M Kenyon said:

oh, you meant, streaming for next friday... sorry, thought you'ld have the last 3 shows streaming.
# February 23, 2004 9:24 AM

Anthony Mills said:

I do. That way I can use either my left hand or my right hand to do the cursor movement. I've got an ancient Microsoft mouse hooked up to the PS/2 port and a Logitech Dual Optical hooked up to a USB port.

I do so because sometimes I'll get a twinge of RSI in my right wrist; when that happens, I just use the other hand.

The effect on Windows is that either mouse will move the cursor; I've freaked out a coworker before by surreptitiously moving the other mouse while he was trying to use one of them. :)
# February 23, 2004 10:26 AM

Joe Beda said:

Very interesting ideas. This is something that I know that I've talked about with other people. There always seem to be more pressing features that we need though :)

How do you think you would handle focus? Should the app keep the idea of multiple focus areas? What about click-to-activate things?

Joe
# February 23, 2004 10:45 AM

Carl Franklin said:

I think the standard "cursor" would remain as such. One cursor, one focus, etc. Something has to be smart enough to parse the equivalent of a MouseDown, MouseMove, and MouseUp event and pass those to the underlying app.
# February 23, 2004 10:54 AM

Carl Franklin said:

Sorry for the confusion, guys
# February 23, 2004 6:03 PM

Nicholas Sing said:

This is a great show gettin' broadcasted right now Carl.
# February 23, 2004 6:27 PM

Nicholas Sing said:

I spent the whole morning listening to that show I just loved it!
# February 23, 2004 7:55 PM

Catatonic said:

Yeah, the problem is that when you have 2 mice connected, they will both work the cursor. And you really want the ability to have just one mouse control the cursor, while still being able to read input from the 2nd one.
# February 23, 2004 8:44 PM

Carl Franklin said:

I guess I'm thinking of a touch-screen interface only. Maybe use the touch screen as a single controller with multiple points... separate from the mouse cursor.

As I think about this more, that's really what I'd like to see.
# February 23, 2004 8:54 PM

TomB said:

Your show is great. I was wondering what's the best way to support it. If I purchase something from one of your sponsors, how would I go about indicating the referral.

# February 24, 2004 10:00 AM

Carl Franklin said:

You can just shoot the sponsor an email saying you heard about them from .NET Rocks! Other than that, just spread the word in any way you can about our show. The more listeners we have, the more interested companies are in sponsoring us.
# February 24, 2004 2:29 PM

Ian Penrose said:

We are software developers based in New Zealand, and a number of our clients run our
applications under terminal services. I'm not sure if 2003 offers anything different here, but is there an api that will allow us to find the workstation i/d associated with a terminal services session?
Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Regards

Ian Penrose
Penrose Associates Ltd
Te Aroha
New Zealand
ihcp@ihug.co.nz
# February 24, 2004 7:39 PM

Nicholas Sing said:

I've spread the word in a few forums on the net.
# February 25, 2004 12:05 AM

Carl Franklin said:

Awesome!! Thanks. How about a .NET Rocks! Coffee mug???
# February 25, 2004 12:28 AM

Paul Sturgill said:

Is that web service done yet?
# February 25, 2004 3:48 PM

Nicholas Sing said:

Cool! Thanks Carl!!!
# February 26, 2004 2:56 AM

Pacifix said:

A truly excellent piece of work. More, please!
# February 26, 2004 4:38 PM

Nicholas Sing said:

I missed the damn show because I was out all morning and all afternoon!
# February 28, 2004 7:01 PM

Carl Franklin said:

Awesome! Where have I been?

LOL
# February 29, 2004 2:03 AM

Pavel Lebedinsky said:

I thought the default setting in XP was to flash the taskbar button when another app tries to steal focus.

The problem is that it doesn't prevent focus stealing from the same process. For example, when you press Win+R immediately after logging on and start typing in the Run... dialog, explorer can decide that it needs to show you the folders that you had open when you were last logged on, and steal the focus from the dialog.
# February 29, 2004 4:47 AM

Carl Franklin said:

I feel the same way. The difference between that show and other things you read is objectivity. Ted and Bruce are the only people I've read who live in both worlds.
# March 1, 2004 2:16 AM

Rory said:

When I'm at least slightly settled in CT, I'm going to post about this show.

I don't know why, but I just *loved* it. I walked away very impressed with Ted and Bruce.

We went a little over the 2 hour limit, but I felt like we could have gone on all day and not run out of steam. I still wanted to talk quite a bit about Java 1.5, but we never got around to it.

Maybe another show, eh? ...EH? :) I'd love to have Ted and Bruce back...
# March 1, 2004 3:20 AM

Nicholas Sing said:

Hey did you make the Deep River Blues song up?
# March 1, 2004 4:37 AM

Jason Mauss said:

Hey Carl, - just wanted to let you know that I tried downloading the mp3 (twice) and both times WMP told me is was corrupt or something and couldn't play it.
# March 1, 2004 5:26 AM

Jason Mauss said:

woops - nevermind...was a problem with my laptop. *<[:-o
# March 1, 2004 5:29 AM

M Kenyon said:

Yes, I believe the in process thing applies, but I am going to test that against the tweak ui too. Thanks Austin. How anoying to be waithing for one website to load I try to enter data into another web form, only to have some of my test fail to get entered. I multitask immensly. I don't know where I would be without dual monitors, but the jumping around when I do not command it! Treason!
# March 1, 2004 9:28 AM

Carl Franklin said:

> Hey did you make the Deep River Blues song up?

Nope. That's an old one.
# March 1, 2004 11:10 AM

Eddy Recio said:

The acustic live version of Toy Boy is AWESOME!!! I love how it sounded live, You rocked!! Oh the show was good too! One of the last shows I thoroughly enjoyued was when You (Carl) were interviewed. Also, it's great to see Rory finding his place as the side kick|comedic interlude!

Again,

Keep on Rocking!!!

PS. On the google weirdos, perhaps doing a coutn down like Letterman top 10, with even a little music!
# March 1, 2004 3:42 PM

Damian said:

That is an incredible sounding accoustic guitar Carl. Really warm and full. What is it ?

(great show btw)

# March 1, 2004 11:42 PM

Carl Franklin said:

That is a 1993 Taylor K-20 made out of Koa wood. It's schweet.
# March 1, 2004 11:47 PM

Damian said:

NICE!

I just googled it, that is a great looking guitar too. Don't see many Taylor's here in Australia.
# March 2, 2004 12:03 AM

Richard Soderberg said:

I've wished for this for years, to have the ability to have a second keyboard and mouse attached to the computer I'm training someone on. That way, instead of having to push them aside to show them some esoteric click-drag combination, I can just show them what it looks like when I do it, and then let them.

It'd also open up the world of single-computer, multi-player games a bit wider; with USB 2.0 and a Matrox 4-head video card, one could attach four monitors, four keyboards, and four mice, then pair each input device with a monitor -- creating a multi-player gaming environment comparable to the XBox.

Or you could bind one keyboard and mouse to an instance of Remote Desktop Client, while keeping the usual keyboard and mouse for the rest of the system. With RDC full-screen on monitor #2, I could see this being a strong feature for busy admins; telling a trainee "Could you handle the problem on screen #2 there? Here's the keyboard and mouse for it" and letting them try to solve the problem, while you can go on with your work on screen 1 -- or interrupt and show them something on screen 2.

I've been wishing for the ability of Windows and OS X to handle this for years; hopefully it's not too far away.
# March 2, 2004 6:08 PM

vbNullString said:

Hello, Carl.
I've been listening to your live guitar for Toy Boy. Man I'm in love with your music! As you mentioned in one of your .NET Rocks show, it's amazing to know how many programmers are actually musicians. I'm somewhat a musician and some of my colleagues as well. My brother-in-law works for the same company as mine and he plays guitar too. Music definitely has something to do with programming!
# March 3, 2004 12:44 AM

Dan K said:

Do you mail out 5 boxed lunches also? The session would not be complete with the grub, and maybe a few black and tans that the remote participant must consume after each day's session?
# March 3, 2004 11:35 AM

Dan K said:

I thoroughly enjoyed dev days!!! The keynote, well, absolutely awesome! I was so moved by Toy Boy (after just hearing it in the car on my Archos on the drive in ), I almost had you autograph a body part that cannot possibly be mentioned here! I know he just flew in cross country and had a less than pleasurable train ride to Hartford, but Rory seemed a little off, understandably. I love his blog and DNR with him, so no biggie. The rest of the day was spent in the web track, really really cool stuff. Duane and Patrick deserve a hats off! The closing keynote rocked; coming to the SIG and seeing some of that made me think when I got home that it was all merely some alcohol induced dream, but you set me straight. The booty bag was blah. Of course Whidbey bits are great, but the rest was so-so. They throw better stuff at you at free events (MSDN 1/2 day things and ASP.NET roadshow) I thought they would knock our socks off for $75 or whatever it was.
For those who didn't go, get thee to Boston!!! (March 16th) Rory, sorry, hope you are feeling better, Carl, you Rocks!
# March 4, 2004 10:04 AM

Strafe said:

*Sigh* Here in Detroit all we got were a bunch of people reading off of slides and coding like it was the first time they've seen it. I was literally bored to tears - no really, my left eye kept tearing up for no other apparent reason. I left after the second smart client presentation, figured I'd get as much out of the DevDays DVD.
# March 4, 2004 12:21 PM

MartinJ said:

I was at the Detroit one also. It sounded more like it should have been for people that never used the framework or Visual Studio. I didn't walk away with a whole lot of new information. Maybe I'll change my mind after going through the "other" track (the darling child: ASP.Net).
# March 4, 2004 6:25 PM

TomB said:

I was going to go to Detroit. Sounds like it's a good thing I didn't

Carl, I was wondering. Your link to dev days shows a quote from Scott Hanselman with a picture. I guess that Lasik surgery was pretty comprehensive ;)
# March 5, 2004 12:27 PM

Strafe said:

Were you having server issues again? Last weeks came thru great with no stuttering at al. This week all I could get was buffering, then it would play for a second, then rebuffer, etc. It could very well be on this end but I thought you had mentioned before that you were having trouble with this...
# March 5, 2004 2:09 PM

Mark Freedman said:

That's a relief! I'm new to this blogging world, but in my short experience with it, that topic turned into the most insane thread I've seen. I was hoping it was just you and Rory joking around -- I know you guys have a sick sense of humor, but it seemed to get a bit nasty there. There'd be a hell of a lot of bleeping going on if that was on .NET Rocks...

Pretty damn controversial topic on his blog...I've got to finish reading it...
# March 5, 2004 8:16 PM

Dave Verwer said:

OEM Apple iPod?

"Apple says, .NET Rocks!"

On second thoughts...
# March 8, 2004 4:23 AM

Alex Kazovic said:

For some reason in this weeks show the volume keeps going in and out. It's a reall struggle to listen to it.

# March 8, 2004 5:29 AM

a said:

Just send them a few cd's with the content on them, or a DVD if the customer prefers. They can load the content themselves. Yes, it is a slight hassle...
# March 8, 2004 7:19 AM

a said:

is that blog spam from the "Enjoy Every Sandwich" link above?
# March 8, 2004 7:21 AM

Carl Franklin said:

Does anyone else have this problem?
# March 8, 2004 8:36 AM

Carl Franklin said:

Nope. He has a link to us.
# March 8, 2004 8:38 AM

b said:

You've got to be kidding me...
# March 8, 2004 9:16 AM

Carl Franklin said:

The whole idea is to make it easy for people. Sending CDs and/or DVDs is not an option.
# March 8, 2004 10:10 AM

NJ John said:

Great show, Carl! Learned some neat tricks from CP (such as ?myDataSet.GetXml() in the command window).

Hey, you guys should consider making "Tips and Tricks" a regular feature, geared each week towards your guest's area of expertise.

The volume was fine on my end, however I still can't get Rory's "Oooooo oooooo!" out of my head. Damn him. Speaking of Rory: No, I'm not from "da Bronx". But I got yer Dot Net Rocks right here! ;->

Keep up the great work, dudes.

-John
# March 8, 2004 10:14 AM

James Avery said:

IPOD! If HP can do it why can't you guys. :)

(Apple does offer free inscriptions on the back, and you could probably get a bulk deal)

-James
# March 8, 2004 11:19 AM

vbNullString said:

Rory is right about the object you want to store in session in different machine should be serializable. No big deal object should be serializable, right? Just a matter of adding <Serializable> attribute!
# March 8, 2004 4:24 PM

Brian Desmond said:

Option B is to get a toned down device which simply only plays .net rocks shows which are downloaded/sync'ed through some web service type interface. Obviously, teh device would need to be able to store a decent amount of the things.

Personally, I wouldn't buy one (fully equipped or limited) - everybody listening to your show is a computer geek already (I'd assume), which means they're most likely quite competent at transferring an MP3 from HTTP/CD to their MP3 player. On the CD thing, you could actually send CDs & be successful with the 56K crowd - every music program has a little rip button, if they don't have the bandwidth, I think the $9.95 for a CD, or $X/month for a subscription solution here would be pretty straight forward & convenient, as the 56K guys aren't going to benefit from the device come a new show.
# March 8, 2004 11:52 PM

Rory said:

vbNullString -

"No big deal object should be serializable, right? Just a matter of adding <Serializable> attribute!"

The consideration is the performance hit from having to serialize/deserialize objects as you stuff them into and bring them out of session state :)
# March 9, 2004 2:10 PM

Ben Zamora said:

I also had the audio problems, the audio would drop off for a moment here and there. Overall the audio quality was good. Thanks for all of the hard work.
# March 9, 2004 2:11 PM

Nicholas Sing said:

Umm... Do they have regional directors in Australia?
# March 10, 2004 2:52 AM

Nicholas Sing said:

Getting Apple as an OEM would get Apple out into the .NET community.
# March 10, 2004 2:54 AM

GuyIncognito said:

Since you are a weekly show they would always be out of date though.

I think your better off sending a cd/dvd and letting the listener choose his/her listening device.

BTW, thanks for splitting the shows into two parts. It makes it easier to burn each hour to CD so that I can listen in my car while driving to work.
# March 10, 2004 9:32 AM

GuyIncgonito said:

I know you use your own music for the intro, but I think it would be a gas to use: Mr Velcro Fastener's - "Electric Appliances"

"I'll be your computer, if you be a good user..."
# March 10, 2004 9:43 AM

NJ John said:

"BTW, thanks for splitting the shows into two parts. It makes it easier to burn each hour to CD so that I can listen in my car while driving to work. "

Agreed! Same here! Thanks, Carl.
# March 10, 2004 11:56 AM

Rory said:

Guy -

"Since you are a weekly show they would always be out of date though."

They aren't *really* out of date, though - unlike a news program where the information is time-sensitive, the first .NET Rocks show is still just as relevant as the last (except, of course, for announcements about conferences and whatever).

The info's still good, that is...
# March 10, 2004 1:03 PM

wasim said:

i want use the mce tryle version frist and after then buy thanq
# March 10, 2004 6:13 PM

Guy Incognito said:

What I meant was that because a new one comes out every week, it would be impossible to distribute an up to date collection on the player's hard drive. Unless you are talking about opening the packaging and copying over the current collection at the date the player was ordered? I think if someone is interested in listening to a *bunch* of past shows (which I agree -- most of the information has a long shelf life) ordering a cd or dvd set seems like the best option.


BTW, I thought your tune on last weeks CP show was pretty good. It sounded a bit like REM or U2, although I had no idea what the lyrics were. I did find the moaning (screaming?) hook to be quite catchy!
# March 10, 2004 6:48 PM

Nicholas Sing said:

I keep missing this show in its Live format lol. And for these reasons:
1. I come from Australia
2. This is what happens
Week 1
Already for the show man can't wait!!!
DOWN TIME!!!
Week 2
I have to go to Melbourne looking for a house
Week 3
Grr!!! Slept in!
Week 4
Grr have to go out and get clothes!!!
# March 12, 2004 8:08 PM

Gong said:

I think that will change the whole paradigm of GUI, not only on windows. Object focus will not be monopolized, all api rewriten and concepts revised. Who dare the investment? But this payment will be worthwhile. Think of turn/grap/touch actions can be interpreted in real time rather than having to choosing from a submenu, thing of the glove in minority report cruise wears. True VR interactivity will be made possible then.
# March 12, 2004 8:31 PM

Carl Franklin said:

I think it can be done without compromising the current architecture. The mouse is the mouse. We'd have to have multiple asynchronous input controllers that don't move the mouse, but exist independently of the mouse and cursor.
# March 12, 2004 8:36 PM

crazy eric said:

What would be more useful is a searchable index of transcripts of the technical content of each show. I usually remember that i heard something on dnr but am not sure which show and where in the show it is. Output of a voice recognition program may be a start to at least get keywords for searching.
# March 12, 2004 9:55 PM

crazy eric said:

What would be more useful is a searchable index of transcripts of the technical content of each show. I usually remember that i heard something on dnr but am not sure which show and where in the show it is. Output of a voice recognition program may be a start to at least get keywords for searching.
# March 12, 2004 9:56 PM

Roberto J. Dohnert said:

HP has rebranded and licensed the iPod and iTunes from Apple and they do not support WMA, it supports MP3 and AAC. I think that the iRiver would perhaps be your best bet.
# March 14, 2004 12:23 AM

M Kenyon said:

Thanks for the show. It was a blast. Had fun chatting with the folks in the chat room.

BTW, just got my coffee mug today! Thanks! (Check my blog on it.)
# March 15, 2004 10:19 AM

Josh Baltzell said:

I just finished watching the videos as part of my patented "Monday morning strive to complete no real work training regalia" (I’m still working on the title since the acronym for that would be MMSCNRWTR (Which I now notice is kind of close to being pronounceable as “Mmmmm… Screen Writer.” Weird.)

I really enjoyed the movies. As a developer with no formal programming education I think I skipped a lot of important basics as I learned things just for the ability to do something I needed done then and there. This kind of stuff is the mortar to my bricks, so please keep it coming. Why don’t you do some DVD training like the guys at DV Press? I got work to order some for our team even though I have no idea if they are any good or not. At $35 a rattle it’s easy to justify the expense to an employer.
# March 15, 2004 10:47 AM

Carl Franklin said:

Thanks, Josh!

>> Why don’t you do some DVD training like the guys at DV Press <<

I much prefer doing them on the web. Nothing to manufacture and it's accessible from everywhere.
# March 15, 2004 10:49 AM

Josh Baltzell said:

For presenting the demos I'm sure the web is a better medium (albeit slightly less accesible)since DVDs have a limited resolution and all. This video sounded and looked great btw. I will have to look in to the software you used for making custom training sessions for customers.
# March 15, 2004 10:59 AM

Catatonic said:

One problem, my monitor is 1024x768, so I have to scroll around your video to see the whole thing. Otherwise fantastic!
# March 15, 2004 12:50 PM

Carl Franklin said:

Nah, just press F11 to watch it full-screen!
# March 15, 2004 12:55 PM

Joshua Hayworth said:

So...

Why aren't you guys charging for this stuff! AppDev makes $1500 +/- selling their interactive CD's.

Just curious,

Joshua
# March 15, 2004 2:28 PM

Carl Franklin said:

We do plan to charge for it. Think of this as a trial period! <g>
# March 15, 2004 2:31 PM

Catatonic said:

With the F11 trick, I still have to scroll down a bit to find the pause/rewind controls at the bottom. Then the Windows taskbar pops up and gets in the way if the mouse cursor gets too close to the bottom of the screen.

I can solve the problem by bumping up my resolution a bit but I wonder if the video would still look ok if you just sized it to fit the browser. That would also help people running 1600x1200 who want it to fill the screen.
# March 15, 2004 3:03 PM

Josh Baltzell said:

The only other thing I can think of for making it easily viewable is to publish the project from Flash as an exe to distribute. YOu can view those presentations full screen on any PC. You can do the same with a standard SWF, but I don't know if you need to have the full version of Flash installed to get that cool player or not.

Problem is that if it did scale to screen size it will probably look blurry on the straight lines here and there when it has to scale up to a resolution higher than it was intended for.

You can give it a try tho if you are actually using Flash to publish the project. Go to File -- Publish Settings and then check the box for "Windows Projector" befor publishing the project. I use that for when out sales people go on the road and want our presentation on their laptop full screen.
# March 15, 2004 3:13 PM

Carl Franklin said:

> I wonder if the video would still look ok if you just sized it to fit the browser <

No, it doesn't look as good, and I can't size it to the browser as flash. I could, however, make the AVIs available. They require the Camtasia codec.

And I'm not using Flash to publish. The Camtasia Producer does that. I think the best thing is to make the AVI files available. It doesn't look THAT bad at lower sizes, and it's about twice to three times as big as the flash version
# March 15, 2004 3:18 PM

Catatonic said:

Thanks for your quick answers! I would take AVI files if I had the choice. One nice benefit is you can burn them to DVD's without too much effort. I think the big fonts you used would still be readable on a TV.
# March 15, 2004 3:36 PM

Abdu said:


Give your listeners some credit! I am pretty sure they can transfer MP3 files to their MP3 players. Have you seen any preloaded MP3 players in the stores and whoever buys them keeps listening to the same stuff all the time?

Don't you think developers who use VS are technically inclined to be able to load MP3 players on their own.

Personally I don't think it's a good idea. How many times your listeners will be listening to your shows? You will not get a good OEM unless you buy an sell quite a few of them.

I think you're too optimisic :)

Abdu
# March 16, 2004 12:20 PM

Carl Franklin said:

> Give your listeners some credit! I am pretty sure they can transfer MP3 files to their MP3 players. <

Huh? This isn't a talent contest! Everyone knows developers CAN download mp3s. The question is whether they WANT to download them all. Just because I CAN write in C++ does that mean I WANT to?

We've got 55 shows now dude. If you want to download gigs and gigs of files, be my guest. I'm trying to make it EASY for people.

Methinks perhaps YOU are the one with the dirty mind about me and my listeners.
# March 16, 2004 2:31 PM

vbNullString said:

I love your video. I don't mind subscribing to this kind of video if you guys make it available. There are things I learned. Keep it up!
# March 17, 2004 12:55 AM

ZeRoRuNTiMe said:

If no vender has an OEM program, maybe some cool .Net Rocks! stickers can be made up so I can rebrand the iRiver. :)
# March 17, 2004 2:07 AM

Don Kiely said:

There has also been wrappers in both VB.NET and C# for a long time on GotDotNet. Go to www.gotdotnet.com and search for DPAPI in the user samples. Pretty nice, and seem to be functionally similar to the Vertigo sammples.

Look for an article on DPAPI in an upcoming issue Advisor's VB.NET/Access magazine.
# March 18, 2004 2:05 PM

Carl Franklin said:

Awesome. Thanks, Don.
# March 18, 2004 2:14 PM

Dana McNeil said:

Hey Carl,

Really liked the new video. I'm with Josh in thatI feel like theres foundation stuff that I just never really got. The format of having you and Rory together really makes it more entertaining, and hence, I think, more watchable and I retain more. The demos I've seen of dvpress was great in terms of content, but not nearly as interesting. I would definately be interested in subscribing to something like that as long as it is affordable.

I really liked the flash output, so if you are taking votes, keep it that way!
# March 18, 2004 2:28 PM

Shannon J Hager said:

Can someone please try to get Don Box to crash this show?!??!
# March 18, 2004 10:08 PM

Roberto J. Dohnert said:

Carl, say John Box and Dan Fox 12 times really fast.
# March 19, 2004 12:03 AM

Vrye Bredo said:

Something good

a) drop the mp3 support unless it's quality is proper
b) the announcers voice 'crackles' or something, get her a proper mike or whatever, now it hurts so much that i have to skip through
# March 19, 2004 3:52 AM

Jason Nadal said:

Interesting thing is that it looks like there's a DPAPI provider made for you in the machine.config in whidbey... very cool...
# March 19, 2004 10:28 AM

NJ John said:

VERY DISSAPOINTED that nobody asked Jon Box about boxing and unboxing in C#! How COULD you miss that joke opp?? :-D

The MP3s are just fine.

And Karen's intros are fine too. Geez, they're only ten seconds anyway! ... picky picky ...
# March 19, 2004 2:09 PM

Sean Cull said:

Thanks Carl! I'll snag it soon. Hey, speaking of DevDays, would you happen to know if it's coming across the border to Canada this year?

-Sean
# March 21, 2004 4:48 AM

GuyIncognito said:

Rory AndOr Carl, another good show! Keep up the entertaining show (edutainment?) OrElse!

# March 23, 2004 1:24 AM

Nicholas Sing said:

Sweet can't wait!!!
# March 23, 2004 2:09 AM

M Kenyon said:

You have inspired me! I wrote my first mobile app! I sent it to my brother to try however, since I have no pocket PC device. (And my Palm device is dead.) We'll see...
# March 23, 2004 4:57 PM

Carl Franklin said:

I just started messing with OpenNETCF today. I'll post my final results.
# March 23, 2004 5:19 PM

Scott Galloway said:

Looking foward to this too, I'm a bit unsure about some of the warnings about stuff not working in this version that were workig in the PDC build...still will be interesting...
# March 24, 2004 4:11 PM

Sean Cull said:

Sounds like it will be a great show. What, more Tablet PC stuff? Geez, between you and Rory I'm beginning to wonder if there isn't some sort of conspiracy to get me to buy one. Ok, ok, you don't have to twist my arm. Really, you don't... ;) Do you have one too, Carl?
# March 25, 2004 12:07 AM

Carl Franklin said:

> Do you have one too, Carl?

Not yet. I'm waiting for more power. :-)
# March 25, 2004 12:13 AM

M Kenyon said:

Did you ever get to go to the Dew Drop Inn on Rt 2? Used to go there a lot. Haven't tried 'Round the Clock yet tho... I'm sure I'll get down there again.
# March 25, 2004 8:59 AM

Roy Green said:

I should clarify, of course, if I'm listening to .NET Rocks!, I don't mind being being chained to the computer..... as much :-)
# March 25, 2004 12:02 PM

Carl Franklin said:

> Did you ever get to go to the Dew Drop Inn on Rt 2?

Every Friday night when I was a kid, my family would go there for fish & chips, which was absolutely awesome. Sometimes my grandmother would come too. It was a ritual. :-)
# March 25, 2004 12:09 PM

Carl Franklin said:

> I'd like to be able to automatically go to these stations, record shows on MP3 or WMA, transfer to one of my players and then I can take them with me.

www.audible.com does that for a price.
# March 25, 2004 12:12 PM

Carl Franklin said:

Actually, Roy, someone with my kind of audio/internet setup could rebroadcast the shows live via the internet while recording them to .wma off the radio, and then make them available for download via ftp...... NAH!
# March 25, 2004 12:14 PM

M Kenyon said:

Brings up a question. Were you raised in New London? Or across the river?
# March 25, 2004 2:38 PM

NJ John said:

Ha! I have the same SMR (Feldman etc.), and when possible, the radio stays on through the afternoon into Prairie Home Companion. ("Guy Noir" rocks!)

Come to think of it, you and Rory are kinda the geek's answer to "Click and Clack"... hmm...
# March 25, 2004 2:43 PM

Carl Franklin said:

I grew up in Mystic, actually.
# March 25, 2004 2:58 PM

M Kenyon said:

Mystic, I have family in Groton, and Pawcatuck. (Also some in Westerly)

Spent many an evening at the Crystal Mall.

Had several Ice Creams at the Sea Swirl...

Fond memories... Whens summer gonna get here!
# March 26, 2004 9:25 AM

Carl Franklin said:

Indeed.

I remember going to Sea Swirl (a small take-out place with only walk-up windows and picnic tables) with my brother when I was probably 12. It was summertime, and we biked to Williams Beach for some swimming fun. We wanted to get an ice cream cone at Sea Swirl and only had pocket change. We were like 25c short and the guy not only gave us the cones, but I remember being impressed that he filled them to the very bottom!

Great clams at Sea Swirl, too. Supposedly the best in New England according to some magazine.
# March 26, 2004 10:20 AM

Sean said:

Now if I only had a room big enough in the apartment to fit a screen like that, I'd be set! :)
# March 27, 2004 4:03 AM

Andrew said:

There aren't too many things I like about the X Windows system, but the ability to set the set the window focus to always follow the mouse pointer is excellent. This would, I think, mostly solve your problem. But the reason why I like it is that it reduces the time I have to spend on the mouse (by saving me a click). I find it so much more efficient to express something by entering text than by mouse movement and button clicks. But then I grew up with CPM, MSDOS and UNIX so maybe I'm just another luddite.
# March 28, 2004 12:17 AM

Carl Franklin said:

That sounds like a great feature. Would it keep another program from popping up and hogging focus, though? Gee, I really hope Microsoft is listening. :-)
# March 28, 2004 12:34 AM

Nicholas Sing said:

Yeah it is a massive screen Sean!
# March 29, 2004 2:10 AM

Carl Franklin said:

I forgot to mention that Chris Pels (president of the .NET User Group of Greater Boston) took these pics. Thanks, Chris.
# March 29, 2004 2:40 AM

Nicholas Sing said:

When on earth is Dev Days coming to Australia?
# March 30, 2004 2:02 AM

Nicholas Sing said:

Cmon guys stop this Linux VS Windows thing. There both GREAT operating systems!
# March 30, 2004 2:13 AM

TomB said:

Just finished listening (couldn't do it live this week)

Great Show.
# March 30, 2004 1:27 PM

Eddy R said:

Hey,

Linux sucks, it has potential but for right now, it stinks!

It is a great academic achievement no one denies that!
And anyone reading Windows Blog that are Linux Zealots, go hang out with your open source buddies somewhere else! And while you're at it figure out why what you code is free, is it becuase it SUCKS??? Have some self value!
# March 30, 2004 1:49 PM

Nicholas Sing said:

The problem is we HAVE to learn a little bit of Linux because Universities are using Linux as well!
# March 31, 2004 5:12 AM

NJ John said:

Eddy: "And while you're at it figure out why what you code is free, is it becuase it SUCKS???"

While it's true that 99.9% of OSS sucks donkey ass, there are some shining examples out there - like anything from the Apache group (Apache, Tomcat, etc.), and Eclipse for example.

But yeah, much of it is complete crap. You get what you pay for.

# March 31, 2004 6:32 AM

Eddy R said:

Honestly, I would probably use anything that makes sense, or is a good product in general. Take the Apple Mac for example, while many things have been written on how superior it was to windows. It never made sense to businesses if they were unabel to run their accounting software. You guys get the point. My comments were really intended to annoy a certain blogger who still lives inside the Matrix.
# March 31, 2004 1:24 PM

NJ John said:

Been meaning to ask, Carl - who plays keys on "Toy Boy"? Good stuff.
# March 31, 2004 4:22 PM

Carl Franklin said:

That'd be Jay. He's a monster piano player
# March 31, 2004 4:26 PM

Ben Lowery said:

Hi Carl,
Just noticed that the MP3s that you make available on the web site for download are in Stero. You might be able to save some size on those puppies by encoding then as mono instead of stereo. Worth a shot maybe... :)
# March 31, 2004 5:05 PM

Carl Franklin said:

Hey ben,

We'd rather produce the show in Stereo.
# March 31, 2004 5:13 PM

Paul Sturgill said:

As a Franklins Brothers listener for about 3.5 years, I can say, it is definitely worth the 10 bucks.

I am waiting for the next album... when is that coming?

# April 1, 2004 11:28 PM

FRED FLINSTONE said:

U R COOL MAN! YEAH
# April 5, 2004 12:02 AM

Johnny (Dothan) said:

Have you any experience with Sonar 3.0. I've been on the cusp of spending about a grand on an Ardvark 24/96 and upgrading the ProAudio 9.0 that comes with it to Sonar. Had my eye on a pair of Audio-Technica Pro 37R mikes to go with it.
# April 5, 2004 5:33 PM

Nicholas Sing said:

Gah my damn clocks wrong! Oh no!
# April 5, 2004 7:12 PM

M Kenyon said:

Loving the show. Listening right now. I envision to kids taking their parents car for a joy-ride, swerving back and forth across the rode, taking out a couple of mailboxes.

But even still, the content was great. Rory was his bright, insightful self, and Chris brings a load of knowledge to the table. And, as all DotNetRocks, plenty of sarcasm.

Keep it up.
# April 6, 2004 11:23 AM

Jamies D. Beine said:

Congrats, from a fan. Subscribed!
# April 6, 2004 9:58 PM

Sean Cull said:

No, thank you, Carl :) You just keep recording them and I'll keep downloading them.
# April 7, 2004 1:02 AM

Josh Baltzell said:

That's fantastic. Congrats.
# April 7, 2004 9:29 AM

Jim Cheseborough said:

Congrats and keep up the good work.

I can't WAIT to see some more of those "2AM" videos you and Rory make. Please add reminders of new videos to us people on your mailing lists.

Thanks!
Jim Cheseborough
# April 7, 2004 3:38 PM

GuyIncognito said:

Good show.. great topic. My only complaint is that I couldn't understand a word the guest was saying because of his accent and because he wasn't in the studio. Rory did a great job of summarizing what the guest said so I didn't miss much.

IMHO... Rory did an awesome job as host!
# April 8, 2004 10:31 AM

Derek Price said:

No ToyBoy Unplugged?
# April 9, 2004 9:13 AM

Carl Franklin said:

alas.. no. These songs are better!
# April 9, 2004 9:20 AM

prisilia said:

did the socket manage to detect drop connection which is provoke by network cable unplug at remote client?
# April 9, 2004 11:30 AM

Sahil Malik said:

I like that !!! The puzzle had me muzzled for a while.

Carl, can you tell me of a GOOD "Tablet PC" development book?
# April 9, 2004 12:22 PM

Bob Reselman said:

Carl, thanks for having me on the show!

You got me to thinking, I wish during the show we could have continued the A/Aflat discussion. You hit on a very important topic, how does the team/band work through a fundamental problem, a team member playing in another key/coding in another place? Are the notes of the player playing in A the wrong notes? Or are all others playing in A flat in the wrong place? How does one determine the proper key for the tune, or is the A flat player trying to lure the others to new ground? Or is he simply misinformed? Does the group chastise and shame him/her. Does the group make an effort to discover the minority player’s thinking. Or is it so close to ship/performance time, that compliance to the thinking and direction of the majority is more important than synthesizing the thinking of the minority member into the behavior of the group overall?

To my thinking, keeping the music/code cool and meaningful while being able to accommodate and learn from mistakes/unexpected behavior is the sign of well adjusted, creative musicians/coders.

I do remember my sax teacher, Duncan Martin telling me not to worry about playing wrong notes. The trick he said is having the ability to turn the wrong note into the right notes.

Then once, I asked Leroy Jenkins of the avante garde jazz group, the Revolutionary Ensemble, if he ever played any wrong notes. The Ensembles music was way out there. He looked at me and said, “Boy, there are no wrong notes!” I was a young college student at the time. Leroy was in his mid-life by then. I think that he was on to something worth thinking about.

Again, thanks for having me on the show. You guys are doing important work! It was a privilege to be part of it for a few hours.
# April 10, 2004 2:47 PM

Catatonic said:

No wrong notes? You should hear my neighbour's kids learning to play the recorder.
# April 10, 2004 9:53 PM

Scott Allen said:

(Continuing the analogy) - there may be no wrong notes - but if the rhythm section is out of wack the entire band is pooched. Are PMs the rhythm section?
# April 10, 2004 10:57 PM

Bob Reselman said:

To my thinking wrong notes are a matter of context. An interesting question might be, How does one or a group create context, musical and otherwise?

Interesting note (not pun intended): in the phrase, "Coders playing in diffrerent keys", there is a misspelled word, a clear violation of syntax, and yet the semantics of the phrase is marginally affected, if at all.
# April 10, 2004 11:12 PM

mnrp said:

"there is a misspelled word, a clear violation of syntax, and yet the semantics of the phrase is marginally affected, if at all"

Exactly. Music isn't about notes it's about expression. Granted, it's much more difficult to "express" something with a tool that you know little about, you can't use very well, or severely limits what you can do with it. But it's far from impossible. I suspect the same is true for coding (except I suppose that if you write ++i when you meant i++, you could have a few problems getting your message out).
# April 11, 2004 2:28 AM

Carl Franklin said:

> So what determines what the right key is?

I would say it's the spec. The spec is the score. If you want to make a coherent piece of music, you write it out before you play it. If you want free-style (jazz, if you will) then you can design "on the fly" as you play - or code as the case may be.

I guess you could say good design makes good software just as a good score makes for a good piece of music. Good hardware and technical correctness makes for a good performance.
# April 11, 2004 8:44 AM

Jamies D. Beine said:

Music has as much to do with "science" as with creativity. There are "technical" musicians, and there are "naturals", then there are the "hacks". All three contribute to the persistent frequencies that bombard society.

To this end I bring only these minor points.

The really exceptional musicians will tell you - “A. technical understanding of music is paramount.”

I think that this is a beautiful discussion.

The CLR is like a conductor in a symphony. Responsible for sending messages back to the musicians, each playing there own instrument on which they have practiced and demonstrated proficiency.

To this end the CLR should make the proverbial key a non-issue. The truth is that each of us is different. We all have different preferences, emotions, and discipline.

Jamie
# April 11, 2004 10:02 AM

James D. Beine said:


One more thing, with respect to the comment by Scott Allen, it is unlikely that the rhythm section would be the PM’s. Everyone can recognize percussionists. It’s a well known fact - “They are the one’s following the musicians around”. (-;
# April 11, 2004 10:14 AM

Pete Beech said:

If most guys play in A, and one guy is in A flat, its going to sound wrong - at least in western tonal music.

So the context is a cultural thing, which is dictated to by the musical experience of the audience and musicians. If westerners went to listen to some hardcore Indian classical music, they would think its wrong based on the context they know.

Maybe, in the analogy, the context is the software programming culture - like if you were raised on Petzold, or you're a Microsoft C++ and MFC person, or you're into C# and design patterns and software engineering, or an iterative design process, or no design and just hacking, or upfront design, etc, etc. Theres a whole culture that has built up around each of these things, which has rules bigger than the actual constraints of the particular language/design context.

To each person in one of the cultures, the other ideas might seem as alien as the indian music to a westerner - at first sight. But they also might appreciate stuff from it, and meld it into their cultural context, like say the Beatles did with Indian music. (although they really bent the indian context to the western musical context, they still had elements and ideas from that culture - so much so that that probably sounded 'wrong' the first time people heard it)
# April 11, 2004 2:19 PM

Bob Reselman said:

Public Interface CognitiveFramework{
Expectation getExpectation(Context context, boolean useStandardRuleOfLogic){

}

Reaction getReaction(Context context, Event event, boolean useStandardRuleOfLogic){

}

Context getContext(Context OldContext, Event NewEvent, boolean useStandardRuleOfLogic{

}

Vector getLogicRules(){

}
}
# April 11, 2004 3:48 PM

Josh Baltzell said:

I know you already know that I enjoyed the show, but I wanted to drop you a note here. If you are just some developer reading this in 2 years please download the show and listen to it. It will still be relevent and thought provoking. Developers need some big picture now and then.
# April 11, 2004 10:20 PM

M Kenyon said:

Listening to this show made me think of a book I read:
'During the thousands of years of mankind’s history, man’s search for God has led down many pathways. The result has been the enormous diversity of religious expression found worldwide—from the endless variety of Hinduism to the monotheism of Judaism, Islam, and Christendom and to the Oriental philosophies of Shinto, Taoism, Buddhism, and Confucianism. In other vast regions, mankind has turned to animism, magic, spiritism, and shamanism. Has this search for God been successful?'

Religion can be viewed as a set of beliefs that strive to structure the world around us in a way we can understand. Basically, the try to answer the 'Why' humans ask.

From what you've said of this book, and the pieces you posted earlier (which I read enthusiastically) it could be said that many coders try to structure their reality or perception through their code. Or at the very least they try to take some control in a world that seems outside of their control.

Could coding be a new religion?
# April 12, 2004 11:30 AM

Jay Franklin said:

My site is grossly outdated.. sorry :(
We are currently recording for the new cd. No promises but hopefully it will be out by the end of next year.
# April 13, 2004 10:23 AM

Jesus said:

I need a pictures of the rock, for my science project
# April 13, 2004 3:35 PM

Jesus said:

Chupa verga guey
# April 13, 2004 3:36 PM

Carl Franklin said:

LOL - Sunday is also a great possibility.
# April 14, 2004 12:51 PM

Scott Galloway said:

Aemember 'during the day' only refers to your particular colony - this generally equates to 'late in the evening' or 'middle of the night' for most of the rest of the planet. I'm probably a bad person to ask - I listen to .NET rocks despite the interstitial babble not because of it...sorry!
# April 14, 2004 12:53 PM

Brian said:

Will this be in place of the .NET Rocks show? Or are you going to do this also?
# April 14, 2004 12:55 PM

Bill Vaughn said:

Hummm. Finding a time is tough. I don't have much "free" time (sadly) but I would probably listen occasionally during the day (my time).
# April 14, 2004 12:58 PM

Carl Franklin said:

We will keep doing .NET Rocks! until a judge orders us to stop! <g>
# April 14, 2004 12:59 PM

Scott Galloway said:

Umm...may have been a little harsh..I mean the doscussion in between of course :-)
# April 14, 2004 1:02 PM

kip said:

Well I guess that if you are smoking crack, then midnight would be a pretty good time!

I know that I very rarely am able to listen to the live .Net Rocks show because I'm always busy at work on friday, so weekends sounds good.

Also any idea of your demographics? In other words structuring the show for a worldwide audience makes sense in the Carl & Rory Take Over the World schema, but if most of your listeners are US East Coast, and there's one guy in Vienna who calls and bitches about the time, well then.....
# April 14, 2004 1:03 PM

Carl Franklin said:

> I hope this doesn't mean the end of .NET rocks <

OK, I'll say it again.

<BIG>
<STRONG>
.NET Rocks! is not going away!!!
</STRONG>
</BIG>
# April 14, 2004 1:11 PM

Pete Beech said:

sorry, didn't refresh enough, so missed your comment about not stopping .NET Rocks! Phew..
# April 14, 2004 1:12 PM

Carl Franklin said:

I just had a very strange idea: Instantaneous transcription.

So, you're online. You can't listen, but you can read. Somone in the studio transcribes the show in real-time, and it becomes a permanent document available online.

Ah the things we could do with money... :-)
# April 14, 2004 1:25 PM

Dana McNeil said:

Carl,

I'm glad you don't want to be oprah. ;-)

I think the biggest obstacle might be finding a niche' that is within your expertise... Obviously that's one of the reasons .net rocks is so great, because you and rory know the in's and outs of it, and therefore can guide the show along. If you end up having a show that has conent you just find interesting, then it becomes more "journalistic", and I think it's a really different sort of show then what makes .net rocks great.

As far as a time, imho, I can't listen to a live feed at work during the day, and on my time off I'm too busy to sit down for an hour or two, so I get my .net rocks fix through the downloads. The interactive idea is great though, and maybe others might be more inclined to participate.

Keep up the great work, and good luck!
# April 14, 2004 1:39 PM

Dave Balzer said:

I would love to see a show like this take off. I'm a huge fan of dotNetRocks.

Weekends are big family time for me and probably imposible for me to listen live. Would you archive these shows for download as you do with dotNetRocks? This would probably be a must for me.
# April 14, 2004 1:41 PM

M Kenyon said:

>Instantaneous transcription
Voice recognition software, taking multiple inputs, can then tag the appropriate input with the appropriate ID.

So does that mean we'd get more tech content on DNR?

Also, where can I get some more of Rory's music.
# April 14, 2004 1:54 PM

Addy Santo said:

If this is internet based, I would expect a large portion of your audience to listen to on-demand streaming. Is .NET Rocks even available live? I follow it, but on my schedule...

And I think this is a great idea, and if anyone can make it come to life- you are the guys. Save this thread so you can come back in 10 years when you r a big star and remember how it started :)
# April 14, 2004 2:09 PM

Carl Franklin said:

Well, I don't think a host needs expertise in order to make a show work - take .NET Rocks! for example <g>

No, seriously, some of my heros include Michael Feldman, who does Whaddya Know. He's intelligent, and although he isn't an expert on his guests' topics, he reads up and does his homework, and he lets the guest shine. That's what it's about, I think.

I think a good host actually knows how to play dumb and be curious, asking the questions that the listeners want to ask.
# April 14, 2004 2:30 PM

Bob Reselman said:

Whatever you do, don't smoke crack.

It's not good for you and eventually leads to a life of crime and asocial irresponsiblity.

And, now as I think about it, don't run for national office either.
# April 14, 2004 3:49 PM

C Shadle said:

OK, we got it, you're keeping Friday's .NET Rocks! (you'd better, we've got duct tape, need I say more????)

Like your idea, but considering your forward thinking asperations, why not have a M-F show?

One day would feature .NET Rocks, another could feature a particular industry technology, another philosopy for reader types, another science breakthroughs, etc. let you mind go wild....

and like the other gent, weekends are reserved for family, I wouldn't listen to live or archived but on M-F.

PS..too rural for DSL/Cable, I have Satellite. When do I get to see Carl & Rory on something like Tech TV?
# April 14, 2004 3:50 PM

Josh Pollard said:

I love dnr and would absolutely love something else from you guys! So I am totally in favor of another show. I agree that making it during the day time would be difficult. I can listen to dnr live for the most part, but anything more interactive than the webform to submit questions is beyond what I could do during the day. I would suggest a weekday evening (Monday-Thursday, people are busy on Friday and Saturday nights) or a Sunday evening.

Can't wait to hear it!
# April 14, 2004 4:09 PM

Jesse Ezell said:

I'd love to see another show. However, although interviewing some scientists and inventors might be interesting, I don't know if it is interesting enough that I would take time out of my day to listen. My knee jerk reaction is that I would probably listen one or two times and then decide I had better ways to spend my time.


It would be very cool to have a show along the lines of what Artima is doing. There are plenty of non-.NET specific guys (like Bjarne Stroustrup or Martin Fowler) that have great insight, but aren't completely .NET oriented, and there isn't really any place to hear their input on application architecture, etc.

As for times, I definately wouldn't listen to anything live on the weekend unless it was broadcasted on the radio and I was alone in the car driving somewhere.
# April 14, 2004 4:44 PM

Ian said:

Hey Carl,

I'm a huge fan, but I see a few danger signs lurking ahead.

The reason I'm a devoted .net rocks fan is because it TEACHES me things. In this vertical market you have very little competition. I listen to LEARN.

You guys are funny, but if I want to laugh I'll watch a chris rock dvd. Your music is cool, but if I want music I'll listen to eminem.

You guys are talented and have enough energy that you want to create more content, here is an idea: more videos like you did a few weeks ago. I like the videos I'm starting to see on channel 9. Another idea would be bunches of 5-10 minute audio/video searchable by keyword. For example if I'm having trouble with commandbuilder object, boom I'm listening to your talk with Bill Vaugn.

Good Luck!

Ian
# April 14, 2004 5:11 PM

Carl Franklin said:

> why not have a M-F show

Because I want a life. <g>

> Your music is cool, but if I want music I'll listen to eminem.

That's like saying If I want gourmet fare I'll go to Wendy's

> here is an idea: more videos like you did a few weeks ago

Why does everyone think we're going to stop being geeks if we do a show about anything but programming?

> It would be very cool to have a show along the lines of what Artima is doing...

*sigh*
# April 14, 2004 6:12 PM

Carl Franklin said:

> although interviewing some scientists and inventors might be interesting, I don't know if it is interesting enough that I would take time out of my day to listen

How about an interview with the team at NASA who wrote the code behind the Spirit Rover?

I think your expectations of "some scientists and inventors" might be a bit low.

Remember, there are non-programmer nerds in the world.
# April 14, 2004 6:15 PM

James D. Beine said:

Carl & Rory,

Hello, what about doing the shows live and scheduling them in an organized way like MS does Web Casts? Not at any specific interval. Take all the time you need to produce each show making each show the best it can be. Then, when you edit the shows content you could "time shift" the content (and adds) to give that episode longevity, being this show is geared at "thinkers", the goal would be to have "content", and that doesn't happen at "intervals".

Note: If this idea sucks just make it a good show and definitely hire a (super-blogger) transcriber so we can get the highlights on RSS in the aggregators. This would increase the live audience many times if I am right.

Best Regards,

Jamie
# April 14, 2004 8:41 PM

SBC said:

How about a 'Jerry Springer' type show? We could get a couple of .NETters having a good bout of boxing (without gloves of course).. for example, Rory vs. Roy..
:-)
# April 14, 2004 8:46 PM

Catatonic said:

I download Dot Net Rocks to a flash memory player, and listen to half an hour each day while I'm taking a walk outside. If your new show is 90 minutes long, it would give me something new to listen to every day.
# April 14, 2004 9:09 PM

Mark Hoffman said:


Can you define what your purpose for doing the show would be? The purpose for .NET rocks is pretty straightforward: Talk and teach .NET. You've filled a niche and the listeners followed.

You say "we hope to expose listeners to interesting people (authors, scientists, technologists, innovators, or anyone whom we think would be a good guest)."

but to what end? I listen to .NET rocks because it's educational and entertaining at the same time. If someone were to ask you "Why should I listen to .NET Rocks?" your answer would be simple. What would the answer be if someone were to ask you "Why should I listen to the Cark and Rory Show?"

I just think the reasoning has to go beyond exposing listeners to interesting people, but rather fulfill a need that isn't being filled. (Much like what .NET Rocks does.)

# April 14, 2004 10:24 PM

Simon Tocker said:

Hi Carl,

Love the Idea I've yet to catch up with the latest show been so busy but I loved the show with Dan Appleman. I thought that was one of the best I've listened to, even though there was not a lot if any coding. I hope you give this a go I will certainly listen. Mixing in the comedy element and music is a good idea as one topic shows can be dry.

As for time I'm five hours ahead any way so it doesnt really matter as long as you archive them.
# April 15, 2004 6:30 AM

Josh Baltzell said:

I think ti is a great idea. What are you going to lose if you try it for a few episodes?

I would say you should start out under 2 hours and see how the time fills up. I am positive some guests will be much more interesting than others. I think that is the reason they do panels on a lot of shows.

I can't guarentee I will listen live weekly, but I will give it a listen for the first few weeks at least.
# April 15, 2004 9:33 AM

TomB said:

I think it's a great idea, and suggest you pick whatever time is convenient for you. Most of us will have to download, and listen off hours anyway.

Do we really have to be thinking though? Like will that be a requirement.

I've always enjoyed listening to intelligent people talk about what they specialize in. But it may also be interesting to hear them speak on subjects that are not.

Scott Hanselman fascinates me, and I'd like to hear his take on stuff outside of programming. Talking about his trip to Northern Africa for example.

Or, Stephen Hawking could tell us why he prefers Coke over Pepsi (or vice versa?)
# April 15, 2004 12:13 PM

Scott said:

I never listen to the show live, I download the MP3 and listen to it on my daily commute or while I'm at work.
I may be in the minority here but I generally fast forward through all of the banter at the start of the show and get straight into the interviews. So a second show with more banter wouldn't appeal to me.
# April 15, 2004 6:49 PM

Dave-o said:

10PM to Midnight EST Thursday would be great for those of us working on the east coast of Australia! For us it'll be mid-day to 2pm on Friday! A nice way to begin the weekend wind down. :)
# April 16, 2004 12:06 AM

Chance Gillespie said:

I try to catch the live shows when I can but I'm a night person so I'm not always awake at noon (how pathetic is that? :) ). I would definately be able to catch each one if it was moved to 10PM thursday.
# April 16, 2004 12:20 AM

Mr Howard said:

I agree with Dave-o
# April 16, 2004 12:20 AM

Rob Windsor said:


I'm fine with either time but I would be able to listen live more often on Thursday night.
# April 16, 2004 12:27 AM

Justin King said:

Considering I get up at 4am in Sydney to listen anything that puts it at a reasonable hour so do not have to miss it on the big night outs on Friday.
# April 16, 2004 12:42 AM

Kim Rossey said:

Always try to catch the current live show. Never have made it yet.

However a 10-11PM EST start time would be a no miss.
# April 16, 2004 2:04 AM

Daryl Turska said:

10pm Thursday EST would be perfect.
# April 16, 2004 4:39 AM

Catatonic said:

Would be perfect. Every week I promise I will listen live and then I miss it. (It's the thought that counts)
# April 16, 2004 5:36 AM

John Barone said:

I"m actually the reverse of most (it seems). I'm up very early in the AM, so having the show late would mean that I would miss it...
# April 16, 2004 7:03 AM

Rick said:

Thursday would be good. I cannot stream audio from work...
# April 16, 2004 7:35 AM

M Kenyon said:

I listen at work. Can't listen at home right now. Looks like 'to bad' for me.
# April 16, 2004 9:05 AM

Josh Pollard said:

ditto m Kenyon. Friday's are great right now!
# April 16, 2004 9:40 AM

Strafe said:

Bandwidth sucks at work so I never get to listen live, and since I have no social life, thursday nights work better for me.
# April 16, 2004 10:14 AM

Stuart Radcliffe said:

That would make it the middle of the night in Europe. No more listening live.
# April 16, 2004 10:48 AM

TomB said:

How about doing the show 12 times, then it will work for everyone?

Thursday night's perfect for me.

# April 16, 2004 12:27 PM

Darren Swartzendruber said:

I like it just the way it is, 12 noon Eastern. I bring my lunch and listen to DNR. If it needs to be moved, Late afternoon would work as well, 3pm - 5pm eastern.

Night will never work for me. I have a family and a life outside of work!
# April 16, 2004 12:36 PM

Jason Mauss said:

Yeah, please. Move it to Thurs. night.

Also - just asking out of curiosity - why does it take 2 days to get the audio files up for download after a show? Shouldn't that process only take an hour or so?
# April 16, 2004 3:33 PM

Minh T. Nguyen said:

Yes!! I totally prefer this idea. I always wanted to listen live, but frankly I work on Fridays, and I don't have the luxury to just take off two hours from work, listen on headphones as everyone else does.
# April 16, 2004 4:16 PM

Joe Grenier said:

I'm all for the Thursday night schedule. That way I can call in drunk. Seriously.
# April 16, 2004 5:07 PM

Paul said:

Why does everybody view strip bars in such a negative way? Why are they portrayed within the context of loser guy? There is more to it than that.
# April 16, 2004 9:11 PM

Steve Severance said:

Thursday night would be much better. Thanks.
# April 17, 2004 8:55 AM

mnrp said:

Of course it's ok to have different audiences for these shows. Some will listen to one or the other, some to both.
# April 17, 2004 12:22 PM

J Donnici said:

I thought the show with Bob Reselman was excellent. I went into it expecting just another "rant on offshore outsourcing" and thinking I'd be disappointed with a non-techie show... but I came away with a completely different feeling. The discussions on why we do what we do, what it contributes to our lives and society, and what the role of the "citizen" is in an "information age" were all very thought-provoking. I spent a bunch of time at lunch with a colleague (not a DNR listener) talking about many of those issues from our own perspectives. Great stuff.

So while I'll still tune in to .NET Rocks for the tech/code stuff, I'd happily tune in to a "broader audience" show. I think doing it during the week is the best idea, probably during the lunch time like .NET Rocks.

Sure, it'd be great to listen to it live while driving, but until you're on an over-the-air system (AM/XM), who streams audio to their car? With a mid-day broadcast, US listeners can tune in from their desks around lunch and much of Europe can tune in during their evening.

Making it accessible via a download after the fact will also be key.

Good luck!
# April 19, 2004 11:55 AM

Grant said:

I concur with J Donnici; I would listen via any archives that would be available for download -- there's no "good" time when I could regularly be listening live.

# April 19, 2004 2:10 PM

Peter Stathakos said:

I would not tune in live on Thursdays, just hard to reserve that two-hour block of time (and stay awake), my fiancee would not be too happy. I try to listen from work on the current schedule but I keep getting interrupted and loose track of what's happening on the show.

The best way for me is the burn on CD and listen in the car technique.
# April 19, 2004 4:25 PM

M Kenyon said:

>How about an interview with the team at NASA who wrote the code behind the Spirit Rover?

I believe they wrote that in Java.

>Stephen Hawking could tell us why he prefers Coke over Pepsi (or vice versa?)

Now there's a guest. Of course he likes to get his questions in advance.

Again, I like during the week day where I can listen at work. But where is most of the audience going to be listening from? And how many could listen live at any time?
# April 20, 2004 9:04 AM

DonXML Demsak (donAT_NO_SPAM_donxml.com) said:

Yo, where's my fix? It is 12PM EDT and no DNRocks :(

# April 23, 2004 12:02 PM

Morten L said:

Yes, it's shame it isn't in Australia.

I am very interested to get Whidbey, so I called MS in Australia to ask if getting a Universal subscription would enable me to download Whidbey from MSDN, but the guy I spoke to didn't what Whidbey were and in the end he could only refer me to the default page for MSDN...

Carl, do you know if it is possible to get Whidbey in Australia somehow?
# April 25, 2004 5:26 AM

Carl Franklin said:

Let me ask the MSDN folks.
# April 25, 2004 4:32 PM

M. Keith Warren said:

May not be the most powerful, but I got the convertible Toshiba (refurbed) from Ubid for $1200; 1.2/512
# April 25, 2004 8:55 PM

James Avery said:

I just finished looking at all of them, and decided on the Toshiba M200. I have not received it yet, but I have high expectations for it. It seems to be the one that people choose when they want to get any sort of development done.

-James
# April 25, 2004 9:16 PM

Yannick Smits said:

Toshiba M200, best thing is its high resolution. Feels so much better than all these 1028x768 tablets.
BTW I use it with Band-in-a-box and Finale 2004
# April 25, 2004 10:02 PM

Carl Franklin said:

Sounds like the Toshiba M200 is the one to get.

Does anyone know when the "next generation" of Tablets is due out? IOW, is this a bad time to buy one?

Thanks for all the great comments!
# April 26, 2004 1:06 AM

Chris Sells said:

I've heard that the 2nd gen of tablets is coming in the fall, which is when I'll be looking.
# April 26, 2004 1:54 AM

Christopher Coulter said:

Already in the 2nd and on verge of the 3rd. On verge of 2nd Gen software-wise come June with Lonestar (SP2). 1st Gen's are cheap and good (not as powerful but where inexpensive comes into play), 2nd Gen's are more than powerful enough, and 3rd's will be even better. Now is a great time, things will always get better, but it's beyond the beta-test stages. At some point have to bite the bullet.

But to answer your question, Dothan is expected around May 10th, but it will take awhile before it all trickles down to Tablets and gets mass volume. So I am eye'ing July for the 3rd Generation, complete with SP2. This Summer will be buy season ahoy, imho. :)

1st Gen - Pent III
2nd Gen - Centrino
3rd Gen - Dothan and beyond...
4th Gen - who knows? Solid State HDs and Fuel cells? A hope. :)
# April 26, 2004 4:16 AM

Dheeren Padhy said:

Dear All,

In Terminal Services:

1. How to achieve the IP address of the client connected to a Server through terminal services ?
2. Is the Information (IP address,user logged,and process the user is using written to any windows file) ?

If you know anything about this could you please pass me some information ?


Thanks for your help.


Regards

Dheeren
# April 26, 2004 10:56 AM

James Avery said:

I thought about waiting, but the M200 really has everything I need. At some point you really do have to pony up and buy, as I am sure you know you can play the waiting game with forever. :)

-James
# April 26, 2004 11:17 AM

Markus Egger said:

Glad to see that I manage to drag you into this ;-)

I think the next one I will buy is the new Toshiba. The main thing I do not like about my current tablet (first generation Acer) is the screen resolution (asides from the lack of horsepower). I think horsepower is about the same across all brands. The large display is what sells me though, because it means that I can 1) use VS on that machine the way I normally would use it, and 2) I can terminal server into my desktop machine and still see most of the things I am interested in...
# April 26, 2004 11:52 AM

Cintask Airer said:

Can't wait to download it. Hopefully the site will be back up soon.
# April 26, 2004 2:31 PM

Yossi said:

I think that the solution for using two seperate mice pointers lays within the HT (Hyper Threading) technology. once the computer processor can handle two seperate applications you can write a mouse driver that splits the data from each mouse to a seperate thread on each of the 'processors' (remember its HT tech not actuall two processors)
with that technology i believe can set focus on two different applications.
# April 26, 2004 6:34 PM

Stuart said:

Rick, I miss you! :)
# April 26, 2004 7:27 PM

Sahil Mailk said:

I have a toshiba M200 with bluetooth. I have a laptop & a desktop too (toshiba), so .. mistake on my part, I should have bought a slate instead of convertible. I find 3.2 lbs too heavy to comfortably hold in my hand and read the news while on the pot in the mornings.

For music composition, there's a powertoy by microsoft.

Overall review of tablet - Good for geeks, not ready for primetime yet. OneNote needs serious help. (Just my views). I can't wait to see the list of applications that come out of the tablet pc $100,000 sweetstakes.
# April 26, 2004 10:56 PM

Catatonic said:

Cool! I'll fulfill my end of the bargain by actually listening live this week.
# April 27, 2004 12:12 AM

Pete Beech said:

Now, in Europe, we'll (maybe) see what getting up at 4am was like for the aussies.. :-)

# April 27, 2004 2:35 AM

ChessMess said:

YES! I can finally attend a live show!!
# April 27, 2004 9:29 AM

Sahil Malik said:

My ideal Tablet -

P5, less than 1 lb weight, slate, better than current handwriting recog (though the current is vastly better than PDA), all sorts of wireless, virtual keyboard.

My ideal one note -

Must have figure representation recogonition, i.e. drawing circles, squares etc, should allow me to logically easily select (rather than clicking on toolbars all the time), and drag drop/create space in the middle etc.

Current killer app for tablet -

Microsoft Reader and e-books. Yes those are awesome.
# April 27, 2004 1:05 PM

Cintask Airer said:

Yet another great DNR Show! Maybe the person looking to take down Rory's site, determined it would be to hard to just hit Rory, and decided to go for a larger target, hoping to hit Rory in the process.

# April 27, 2004 2:34 PM

Noah Fields said:

Late-night times kick ass, since that's when most of us are just waking up anway.
# April 27, 2004 3:53 PM

bliz said:

this is cool! thanks for making it late enough for folks on the west coast to get home from work, eat dinner, then take a dump before sitting down to listen to dnr.

most excellent. :)

btw, ./calldotnetrocks still says fridays from 12 - 2 eastern.
# April 27, 2004 4:19 PM

abaum said:

How about good (short) stories.. I have a little gem from lastweek with my supervisor, but alas, it was verbal...
# April 27, 2004 8:50 PM

Scott Galloway said:

Same here...verbal (or IM) the jist of it was - if we do more testing we'll find more bugs, that could delay product launch...I didn't even bother to argue.
# April 27, 2004 9:28 PM

Carl Franklin said:

A short story would be great.
# April 27, 2004 9:57 PM

Peter said:

Sorry Carl, I'm not gonna stay up untill 4AM or get up then just to hear your voice. But you got to do what you think is best for the show and keep on .NET Rocking.

If you record it on Thursday, does that mean you could get the downloads up earlier?
# April 28, 2004 5:44 AM

Carl Franklin said:

Cool, Jim. Maybe you could make the trek down some night and have a beer with us in the studio!
# April 28, 2004 1:13 PM

Andrew Davey said:

Bah! Now I'll have to stay up til 2am! I guess there is no way to please everyone. Surely the best option is to put the show on when the majority of people can listen live. Perhaps you should run a poll your site to guage the most popular time.

Anyway - I'll just have to check out the recorded version (or fill up my DNR mug with espresso!). Keep on rockin' !!
# April 29, 2004 9:43 AM

Joe Grenier said:

Carl,

You guys are ok with a studio audience at 10PM? If so, I'll do my best to get their tonight! I'll even bring Jim with me ;)
# April 29, 2004 11:32 AM

Joe Grenier said:

I'll even try to get THERE tonight (hey, I was a science major, not English).
# April 29, 2004 11:33 AM

Carl Franklin said:

Come on over. Bring a cell phone because the front door gets locked at 6!
# April 29, 2004 2:28 PM

Carl Franklin said:

> Perhaps you should run a poll your site to guage the most popular time.

We did that. Most people can listen at night. Sorry.
# April 29, 2004 2:29 PM

Edneeis said:

Damn I forgot until 11 PM PST and then I got Server too Busy messages when I tried to connect. I'm most definately a night owl and was looking forward to the show too. Hopefully you'll do a night one again, especially since my new job doesn't afford me an opportunity to listen during the day. My last job did and I like listening live over the mp3 but whatever works is all good.
# April 30, 2004 2:19 AM

Carl Franklin said:

Server too busy??? That's not right.
# April 30, 2004 2:39 AM

Nicholas Sing said:

Does dumb e-mails at school count? I can get a bucket load of them!
# April 30, 2004 4:58 AM

paul said:

With all those Australians it might be....
# April 30, 2004 8:35 AM

M Kenyon said:

So, we still have to wait till Monday to hear the recorded show? (Night is not so good for me...) :(
# April 30, 2004 10:28 AM

Nicholas Sing said:

Grr... Sry Carl couldn't tune in! I had an eye test!!!
# May 1, 2004 5:48 AM

Brian Noyes said:

I've been totally happy with my Toshiba 3505, and would buy an M200 in an instant based on the experience if I had to buy again today. However, I'm waiting for the next gen ones after the M200, but will probably buy Toshiba again.
# May 2, 2004 8:54 PM

Paul said:

Ok, who else thinks that Don looks like Carl with a little stub on the face and a different hair style?? :)
# May 3, 2004 9:08 AM

NJ John said:

Rumor has it that you guys are planning some kind of new contest, where each week a listener must get themselves hit by a moving vehicle while wearing DNR swag to win a mention on the show. Is this true?

Well let me tell you... you people are sick! SICK!!

;-P

# May 4, 2004 12:23 PM

NJ John said:

Damn, that was a GREAT show! One of the best DNR's yet.
# May 5, 2004 10:00 PM

Michael Ferrini said:

Ahhh finally operator overloading in Visual Basic.
# May 6, 2004 8:27 AM

Alex Sheppard-Godwin said:

I have a motion computing 1300 slate. I use it for surfing, outlook, onenote (recording, note taking), marking up and watching divx and sometimes listening to dotNetRocks! For this a slate feels much more appropriate and easier to hold in meetings. 4hrs battery life is good and the supplied usb keyboard/stand combo is abbysmal - I find the best way to work with it for non tablet use (ie as a laptop) is to plug it into the network and use remote desktop to get full screen access from my desktop pc - this works really well. The new version (M1400) I think has built in bluetooth, better mic's and a fingerprint reader. The biggest bugbear I have with the slate is having to use the pen to put your password in - hopefully the fingerprint reader will fix this - considering ebaying mine and getting a new one just for this. (Appologies for the essay)
# May 7, 2004 6:25 AM

Damir Tomicic said:

keep up rockin! ;-) Damir Tomicic, INETA Germany, Austria & Switzerland
# May 11, 2004 8:10 PM

Eduardo Melione said:

What about login? Suppose that we can configure extras mice and keyboards. So, if the computer with two or more monitors could be used for more people at same time... Does windows deal with this? There is something like unix-like that maps users to terminals? It could be very useful...

Think about it!
# May 12, 2004 6:04 PM

Carl Franklin said:

Well, again, I don't think the idea is to have more than one mouse cursor. That would surely screw everything up - The windows API SetCursorPos for example... in short, that wouldn't work.

These would have to be auxilliary inputs that you need a special API to be able to access.
# May 12, 2004 7:03 PM

Andrew Baum said:

Great timing with TechEd coming up. Would be nice if you could take a few moments to go over the general conference happenings for the newbie conference attendees, so we aren't overloaded. :P
# May 13, 2004 2:53 PM

Joe Duffy said:

Just listening to the taped show right now...

Carl, I like your taste. I'm no expert in the field, but really do enjoy a good single malt scotch now and again.

...In fact, at TechEd last year I was hanging out with a group of geeks at our hotel's bar (Adolphus), and ordered a glass of 30 year old Macallan single malt. Easily the best scotch I've ever tasted.

And than I got the bill. $65 for a single glass! Yowzas!
# May 14, 2004 10:52 AM

Lenroc said:

Going to record a punk band tomorrow wth only 2 Shure Beta58s. Hope it works?!!! Got another cheap Shure Vocal Mic - will probably just shove that on into the bass drum to get a bit more out of it.
Recording through a Beringher 4 Channel mixer into Garageband for Mac OS X. Might just get that real old trashy 70's UK punk sound!

Got any suggestions besides going out and buying condensor mics?
The kit is a very good Tama in a very small room with mostly bare walls! Can this be done?
# May 14, 2004 11:01 AM

Carl Franklin said:

Set up the mics like 3 feet in front of the drums. If you want a wide sound, place them far to the side pointing in to the same point. If you want it tighter, move them closer to the middle, but always point them to the same point in space to avoid phase cancelation, which doesn't sound good, even for punk.
# May 14, 2004 11:23 AM

Lenroc said:

Thanx for the advice!
Just got another mike (Samson R11) from a friend to use, seems like another cheap vocal mike, so now got the 2 beta58's as overheads and the cheap Shure for inside bass drum.
Where should I put the Samson to help the sound? I thought of just putting it up to the snare?

Any help?
# May 14, 2004 1:38 PM

Carl Franklin said:

Actually, Turtle Beach was bought by Voyetra, so it may be mine. Send me a link to it, and I'll let you know.
# May 16, 2004 8:41 AM

Nicholas Sing said:

Lemme guess...
That was Rory!
# May 17, 2004 6:12 AM

J Donnici said:

Hi Carl,

Just curious... what program recording program are you using these days? I've been a Cakewalk user since the DOS days and currently use Sonar 3.x, as well as Reason, Sound Forge, Project5, etc. Can't bring myself to get rid of the hardware gear, though. :)

JD
# May 17, 2004 2:38 PM

Carl Franklin said:

I'm starting to use Sonar 3.0, but I'm not comfy with it yet. I also use CoolEdit Pro, which has now been bought by Adobe.
# May 17, 2004 3:28 PM

Catatonic said:

I had a Sound Blaster, and I must have heard those MIDI's, but I just can't remember how they sounded. I do remember the talking parrot, Dr. Sbaitso (THIS IS NOT AN ANATOMY CLASS), and a demo that played Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairy.

I still have Voyetra Midi Orchestrator Plus installed, a 16-bit app that came with a Sound Blaster AWE64 Gold I think. Still works fine on Windows XP.
# May 17, 2004 7:20 PM

Nicholas Sing said:

Yeah I got to it just as it went on the web Carl. Although I'm still listening to it now. Pretty good show!
# May 17, 2004 9:09 PM

Nicholas Sing said:

Umm Carl it just said that a Network Error had occured.
# May 18, 2004 4:16 AM

Luciano Evaristo Guerche said:

Dear Carl,

Do you know whether Dan Appleman, Mark Dunn, Don Kiely and Bill Vaughn have blog sites or not and their addresses?

--
Luciano Evaristo Guerche
Sao Paulo, SP, Brazil
# May 18, 2004 11:18 AM

NJ John said:

The guy who did the MIDI demo files for Cakewalk (Igor Khoroshev) went on to play keyboards for Yes. So who knows, Carl... you just might be a rock star someday.
# May 18, 2004 4:07 PM

Leonard Knight said:

I too am in the market for a tablet pc. I love the idea. I used a Newton MP2K for over a year and loved it...I haven't been happy with any other PDA's since. None live up to it.

Sorry for the tangent.

I want something light...less than 1 lb and fast. It has to have 802.11g or better and bluetooth would be very handy. I had considered the NEC Versa Litepad but have read some really bad reviews of it. I prefer a true slate...I'll use my laptop when I need a laptop. I think I'll be waiting for the next wave of tablets. Thanks for "listening".
# May 18, 2004 9:41 PM

Adam Kinney said:

I plan on coming to the BOF, but its on Sunday May 23rd, right? Or is it Saturday May 22nd?
# May 19, 2004 11:28 PM

Nicholas Sing said:

I nearly had a reason to watch it live this week!
# May 19, 2004 11:34 PM

Carl Franklin said:

Sorry about that. It's on Sunday, May 23rd.
# May 20, 2004 10:50 AM

Paul O'T said:

.NET Rocks has been in a state of flux over the last 4 months, so I hope the show will survive and continue to grow.
# May 20, 2004 9:14 PM

marco said:

hahahaha.

Whenever a professor takes a sabbatical all the students ask if s/he's retiring.

So isn't it fitting that when Carl and Rory announce a vacation, people wonder if the whole shebang is going under!

Have a nice time off.
Listen for ya when you get back!

marco
# May 22, 2004 7:09 PM

marco said:

Every once in a while a 95
or 3.11 box gets donated to
the shelter I help run. I
always search the heck out of
control panel to see if
reggae.mid happens to be there.
Joyful memories...

Ah,
marco
# May 22, 2004 7:21 PM

Charlie Dey aka Crimson said:

I've been looking forward to the jam sessions as well, but didn't bring my keyboards - case is way to bulky... so how dies it work, would I rent one out, or what?
# May 23, 2004 10:14 AM

Andy Winters said:

They supply all the instuments so there will usually be two keyboards, a couple of basses, drums, plenty of guitars, etc.

Just come on down!
# May 23, 2004 10:21 AM

Carl Franklin said:

Yep. Just bring your bad self!
# May 23, 2004 5:14 PM

Russ Fustino said:

Carl lead the pack! I can't wait to see him again this year... Carl, still have the strat?
# May 23, 2004 6:06 PM

Josh Baltzell said:

Vodka looks like water. Just kidding! :)
# May 27, 2004 8:59 PM

JC Magnusson said:

Now I wasn't there, but come on, that sounds damn funny to me! :)
# May 28, 2004 3:40 PM

Kannan Kalyanaraman said:

Carl,

I remember you displaying a link to the mp3 player you guys use for recording the show, I couldn't find the link anymore. Can you post it to your blog or the .netrocks page. Googling didnt help either.

Thanks,
Kannan
# May 31, 2004 3:19 AM

Chuck Doherty said:

NOW I find out. I was in the ill-fated 30 minute version on Tuesday, and had no idea it was being presented again. Wish I knew that then.

On another but somewhat related subject, who was that great keyboard player who seemed to be running the show at the Jam Session?

Chuck Doherty
# May 31, 2004 3:41 PM

Carl Franklin said:

> who was that great keyboard player who seemed to be running the show at the Jam Session <

That was Ralph Rivel. He started the sessions in 1993.
# May 31, 2004 3:46 PM

GuyIncognito said:

Judging by the short preview, the movie looks to be awesome (you and Rory are the modern day Abbott and Costello) but a 95 mb download for 2 and a half minutes? How can you possibly have that much bandwidth? What are you looking at for distribution options?
# June 3, 2004 12:15 AM

Carl Franklin said:

Yeah, that movie was too big. I recompressed it. Now it's 19MB
# June 3, 2004 12:55 AM

KMK said:

Need a recommendation for a very light and small pure slate for mostly note taking purposes. The only processing requirements are a good recognition software and wireless compatibility for email.

BTW, what is the verdict on the TDV Vision V800XPT?
# June 4, 2004 9:40 AM

仪表 said:

Happy birthday!LOL...
# June 5, 2004 4:44 AM

Zealot? said:

The future is Linux. Why would you use anything else?
# June 7, 2004 8:27 AM

Nicholas Sing said:

Carl I don't mean to put you down but that was a really horrible Unit Testing impression! :)
# June 10, 2004 10:31 PM

Carl Franklin said:

LOL - You didn't like my Andy Rooney?
# June 11, 2004 9:41 AM

NJ John said:

As if Rory EVER sounded human? ;-P
# June 11, 2004 12:35 PM

Nicholas Sing said:

>LOL - You didn't like my Andy Rooney?
I think you know the answer :P
It was funny how Rory's "Demo version" couldn't dropped out and caused the show to buffer.
# June 12, 2004 5:12 AM

Josh said:

I have been having problems with Windows Media Center. When I go in to play a DVD from the Media Center it is degraded and the screen flickers vigorously. I have even gotten the blue screen of DEATH...if you know what I mean. Is there anyway in fixing this? I need some advice. Is there anyway uninstalling Media Center without uninstalling the whole operating system.
# June 13, 2004 5:22 AM

Christian said:

Just spoke with Toshiba and they are releasing the Dothan Tablet Wednesday 6/23/04. The wait is over!
# June 21, 2004 8:29 PM

roxx said:

I really need to use Alias StudioTools software to do all my sketch, and some 3D CAD... I founpd sketching on tablet pc to be the ultimate experience... except... the grahpic card can not handle "hardware overlay" featured in all Nvidia Quadro graphic cards...

I was sucessful hacking my dell notebook with geforce2go to quadro2go with rivatuner... now it shows my little brush size with hardware overlay... BUT I need to lug around a real TABLET to sketch and do a 3D CAD...
I would like a tablet pc with nvidia card that can handle hardware overlay (geforce2go or geforce3go or Quadro cards) hoply 1gb RAM capable.. Toshiba Tablet PC was close .. it had big screen 2GB memory capable.. but geforce4 type graphics.. which can not display hardware overlay.. some one help me find my ultimate tablet pc
# June 24, 2004 3:23 AM

Kannan said:

Thanks for the link :-)
# June 25, 2004 4:25 AM

Strafe said:

That was a very entertaining show. It was the first time I stayed in the chat room for the whole show. Oh and, hey Carl, update Zeepchat so you can just click on hyperlinks =)
# June 25, 2004 2:00 PM

Julian said:

I looked after the possibility to have 2 cursors on the screen for some time already.

Some long times ago, i played to Lemmings on my old Amiga 500, and there was a version (maybe lemmings 2) where you could play at 2 players at once.
On the same map, there were 2 lemmings drops and 2 exits. The screen was split in two, and each player was moving his mouse on his side with his own cursor -you couldn't cross the middle separation-. The goal was to make escape more lemmings than the other player, and you could of course take his lemmings in your exit.
That was so fun, you could make a Lemm turn around and go dig on your opponents land so he had to built a bridge at same time or all his lemm would turn around and come in your exit, or you destroy a bridge and all his would fall and die ... ahah i had good time on it with my bro.

I hope you know lemmings to understand what i am saying =p


My goal would be to make mini games to play on the same computer, either with a split screen either with 2 cursors "melted", like a classic tennis to start, a shot game...
Cause i miss small games where you can play at 2 people (at least) at same time on same computer. Those are an old time, but need a come back.
# June 27, 2004 2:17 PM

Nicholas Sing said:

hmm with voice over IP what happens if someone has an accident and the internet's out? What do you do?
# June 29, 2004 11:06 PM

Carl Franklin said:

If the Internet is out we don't have a show anyway. We might as well redo it another time.
# June 29, 2004 11:29 PM

Nicholas Sing said:

No I don't meaning anything about the show I'm just thinking with voice over IP you guys were talking about basing a whole phone system on voice over ip. Ok I'll explain it a bit better.
Imagine you at home...
...The internets down.
You get a Heart Attack.
You left your mobile phone on your desk at work. So what are you gonna do?
# June 30, 2004 12:54 AM

Carl Franklin said:

Ah..

Yeah, that is an advantage of POTS. It never goes down.
# June 30, 2004 12:55 AM

Nicholas Sing said:

Carl do you know any web host's that do ASP.NET 2.0 shared hosting?
# June 30, 2004 3:44 AM

Carl Franklin said:

That would be illegal right now, wouldn't it??
# June 30, 2004 3:53 AM

Darryl said:

To the guy who spoke with Toshiba regarding Dothan Tablet PCs--who did you speak to? I just called today and the sale representative had no ETA on the arrival of the Toshiba M200 line using Dothan.
# June 30, 2004 6:29 PM

julie lerman said:

thunk before you port! LOL. Thanks I needed that ! :-)
# June 30, 2004 6:29 PM

Nicholas Sing said:

>That would be illegal right now, wouldn't it??
Well that's a bummer :'(
Web developing is way better in this version
# June 30, 2004 7:42 PM

Edneeis said:

That's pretty good, Thanks!
# July 1, 2004 2:35 AM

Erick Sgarbi said:

You forgot a few "Developers". :-)
# July 1, 2004 9:36 AM

Erick Sgarbi said:

No doubt it is great to put a voice and a face behind his blog entries. Now i know how it feels to read a book before watching the movie.
# July 1, 2004 9:42 AM

Krishna said:

Hi,

Could anyone tell me how I could pass on windows login credentials (User Id and password) to the TS Server (Windows 2003). I am looking at being able to connect as a specifc user using login parameters in the URL link on another server.

This would be a Web/Browser based TS connection with no TS Client involved.

Thanks,
Krishna

Please email : krishnareddyk@yahoo.com
# July 2, 2004 11:46 AM

Evan Erwin said:

For Windows to survive, and I'm certainly not implying it's going to have a problem with that, but let's say to keep it 'popular' amongst the masses, it needs developers. That means cheap dev tools. This is just another step before they're completely free.

Developers drives windows, not vice-versa.

These tools will be free in a few years, I believe.
# July 6, 2004 4:39 PM

Nicholas Sing said:

Aww bummer just on that day i have to be going somewhere :'(
# July 6, 2004 7:18 PM

Bill B said:

It was suggested by another developer that we could use DPAPI to encrypt our connection strings for WinForms applications that either installed on local PC or run thru the URL.

After reviewing the code and using the examples it looks to me that ADAPI is not a good solution for this as the decryption will only work for the same user and/or machine that created the decrypted information. This makes sense in a ASP.NET app but not in a WinForms app. AM I correct or just missing something?
# July 6, 2004 7:34 PM

Dictionary of Programming Languages said:

Algol60 as originally defined had no language statements specifically for I/O, which is common today but unique back in the late 1950s.
One interesting aspect of Algol60 was its support for two kinds of subroutine parameter passing: call-by-value and call-by-name. The call-by-name method, which allowed Algol to support a kind of dynamic scoping (a la Lisp) was supported with a slow but flexible mechanism called a thunk.
# July 6, 2004 8:49 PM

SBC said:

what was Rory playing?
:-)
# July 7, 2004 9:06 AM

Tony Miles said:

Great job - that's some mean guitar you're playing.

Is that a PC88 you're brother is playing? [I have one too].

Dicovered .NetRocks a few weeks ago and have enjoying listening to the shows on a wearable MP3 player while I take some much needed exercise. Please keep up the good work.

Respect for your music making!
;-)
# July 7, 2004 9:18 AM

Paul Sturgill said:

Very cool!!

I might have done some different stuff with the footage like some PIP since you have 4 cameras worth of footage. But great work for 12 hours.

Great song too.
# July 7, 2004 10:24 AM

Carl said:

> I might have done some different stuff with the footage <

We plan to do more. We were just impatient.. and a bit tired. :-)

We have more footage of New London (actually) that we want to put in some spots too.

Thanks!
# July 7, 2004 11:37 AM

Carl said:

> Is that a PC88 you're brother is playing?

Yep. Although he's just using it to trigger a GigaPiano
# July 7, 2004 11:38 AM

Paul Sturgill said:

How do you like PPro? I heard you talking about getting an Mac for the video editing software it offers, does that mean that you are not satisfied with PPro?
# July 7, 2004 11:42 AM

Carl said:

I was thinking of getting an iMac because according to Rory, the best video chat/conferencing stuff is for the mac. I love PPro for video editing. It took longer to download the files via firewire than to edit the video. It's fabulous.
# July 7, 2004 11:51 AM

M Kenyon said:

Hey, loved the show as always. Did you ever get that link to the satelite thing mentioned at the end? Where you could zoom in on people's houses?
PS. What's the e-mail for the show? I had a question for the show and used the form on the CallDotNetRocks page. Don't know if you ever got it.
# July 7, 2004 11:51 AM

Tony Miles said:

> Is that a PC88 you're brother is playing?

>Yep. Although he's just using it to trigger a GigaPiano

Ah - I was thinking I couldn't recognise which piano sound he was using. I was planning on maybe trading in my PC88 - I'll check out the GigaPiano - thanks.
# July 7, 2004 12:29 PM

Carl said:

GigaStudio is a great program. You need to dedicate a PC to it, but the samples stream from the disk, and last a looooooong time. Every note of the piano is a different multisample. The longer you hold it down, the more data gets streamed off the disc in to memory to play, and then gets discarded after it's played. Very slick, and no other sampler that uses RAM can touch it.
# July 7, 2004 12:33 PM

Tony Miles said:

Re GigaStudio

Thanks Carl, I'm pretty ignorant on music electronics [I always played acoustic until I got the PC88], so that's really helpful. I've got several PCs so I should be able to host the program OK. Thanks again!
# July 7, 2004 12:41 PM

Paul Sturgill said:

Is there going to be a second album from the Franklin Brothers? When is .NET Rocks the movie coming out?
# July 7, 2004 1:34 PM

Carl said:

> Is there going to be a second album from the Franklin Brothers?

Yes indeed! That's what we're working on now. It's a slow process, though.

> When is .NET Rocks the movie coming out?

End of the summer, knock on wood. :-)
# July 7, 2004 1:37 PM

Catatonic said:

Awesome, I didn't realize you are a guitar god!

I'd love to see some more footage of the whole band in frame at once. It kind of looked like you weren't in the same room until the end of the video. (I'll shut up now)
# July 7, 2004 2:40 PM

Carl said:

> Awesome, I didn't realize you are a guitar god!

Gee, neither did I. *blush*

> It kind of looked like you weren't in the same room until the end of the video.

That was intentional, actually.
# July 7, 2004 2:48 PM

Tony Miles said:

I was just thinking / wondering whether you've ever considered doing an item on PCs and music on your show?

It's clearly something you know a lot about, and Rory's into music too, and you've remarked a number of times on your show that it's not at all uncommon for software guys to be in to music too.

I listened to the piano demos on the TASCAM site, sounds pretty good - $79 for the GigaPiano [plus GigaStudio] is a lot cheaper than trading my PC88 - cheers!
# July 7, 2004 2:54 PM

Don Kiely said:

Cool! So has the New London Convention and Visitors Bureau contacted you yet for the rights?

Let me know when you go on the road, particularly when the bus will be hitting Fairbanks!
# July 7, 2004 3:57 PM

Mark Anthony Spiteri said:

Awesome!! I really enjoy the Franklins Bros. music - i think its simply great!

Keep up the good work and keep it coming!
# July 8, 2004 6:12 AM

Erick Sgarbi said:

Extremely hilarious.....
# July 9, 2004 7:31 PM

Nicholas Sing said:

Cool Carl! Your a good band!
# July 10, 2004 7:45 PM

Prakash koshy... said:

I want to upgrade my 2000 server machine. I have a new server hardware and i'd like to know the procedure for the migration to a new hardware setup.
I have configured DNS, DHCP,

i would like to know the procedure to migrate active directory, DNS, DHCP.

Can u help me .....Please...
# July 11, 2004 5:12 AM

Josh Baltzell said:

That clip always cracks me up. I usually picture someone holding a dusty 5 1/4 100 years from now doing the same thing.
# July 12, 2004 12:14 AM

Paul Litwin said:

There is no good reason in modern computing for language case sensitivity. C types make excuses galore for why case sensitivity is a good thing but we all know it's a pile of poop. The machine is supposed to do the work, not the human! Just admit that Kernighan and Ritchie got it wrong and let's be done with case sensitivity already cause it really, really sucks.

Paul
# July 12, 2004 6:21 PM

Bill Vaughn said:

Ahem,
Ah, Carl, if you feel that strongly, perhaps you should take out a contract on this guy… ;)
As for me, (and I’ve been programming for a couple three decades too), I prefer Visual Basic as it’s more productive. I’ve been a development manager as well and as such, I prefer languages that my staff can use more efficiently. Managers and the developers they hire are rewarded by the number of problems they solve in a period of time. To me C# has been a “readable” language, but far harder to work with because it has not been as well integrated with the Visual Studio .NET IDE. In Visual Basic when I make a change to a variable or change its scope, I don’t have to do anything—the Visual Basic IDE takes care of the details—I have never had to. Visual Basic’s just easier to use for any number of reasons. The fact that there are billions of lines of Visual Basic code out there to draw on is another appealing factor. Sure, some of it’s going to have to be recoded to go use the Framework. We do this every few years to clean out the closet.
Sure, if you come from Java or C++, you’re going to want to write to C#. That’s fine. Statistically, those people do make more—but I can prove conclusively any fact you care to name given the ability to pick the sample. For example, I can prove that Visual Basic developers make more money simply by adding up the salaries of every man, woman and child that programs in Visual Basic—and include the professional developers along with the “paradevelopers” like the physicians, pundits, prosecutors, plumbers (who make even more) and politicians who make programming Visual Basic part of their job. Hell, the politicians alone would throw the income curve way off. Does that make Visual Basic more important or C# less important? Nah. It just means each has chosen the right language for the person with the problem.
Visual Basic is about productivity—doing more with fewer mistakes by more people without the need for specialized training. The Framework is about that too. The fact that you can use Visual Basic, or C# or any of a couple dozen other languages is immaterial. Saying one language is “better” than another is like saying Aramaic or Greek is better than English because that’s what the bible was written in and you can’t understand Christianity without reading and knowing these ancient tongues.
Carl’s right. Developers should not choose a language for any of the reasons he mentions. They should choose a language with which they are most comfortable and can make the most productive contribution to their company and to themselves.
Bill Vaughn
# July 12, 2004 6:48 PM

Martin spedding said:

I developed software,for many years using VB, doing a lot of things that people said you could not do with VB. I also worked on Java projects so when it came to choosing a primary .Net development language I went with C#. Partly because I had got tired having to defend vb against people who did not have a clue. The idiocy of the web page is that it is so full of errors and inaccuracies. In end it really does not matter which language you use, I feel happy using both of them.

Martin
# July 12, 2004 7:07 PM

Chris Kinsman said:

I think there are two issues at work here.

I absolutely think that a project team must choose a language and stick with it for all code they create. Note I said create, not consume. Proliferation of multiple languages within a project is the road to madness.

That being said I think the strongest argument for that language choice is what are the developers backgrounds. If C/C++ developers great use C#. If Visual Basic/VBScript developers then use VB.NET. They aren't so different that the odd team member who doesn't sync up with the rest of the teams background can't catch on.

Now this is complicated by the foolish resolve of each of the language teams to further differentiate the languages so they can "compete" against one another. I think this is just going to promote more of the us vs. them mentality that is already swirling around language choice.
# July 12, 2004 7:18 PM

Sherrod Segraves said:

Carl, the elegancetech page is silly, but you're not doing much better.

POINT 2: While I'd agree that it's mostly a personal preference issue, VB really does have some cruft. It's a minor but valid point.

POINT 4: You can rail against the injustice as much as you want, but like it or not, their statement is true. It's not fair, but many C++ people view VB as a toy language.

Blaming the situation on people who report it is unreasonable.

The real cause is that C++ acts as a gatekeeper. It's such a pain to learn that only the dedicated use it much. On the other hand, VB has always been easy, so even a clueless hobbyist can release buggy shareware.

POINT 6: You are talking about a future version, not what's currently being sold.

Anyway, I used VB from version 1 to version 6. It was wonderful for utilities and small apps, but I found it extremely constricting at times. I preferred C++ for professional projects.

Now with .Net, VB is a more full-featured language, but it still doesn't have unmanaged code. (Yes, I need unmanaged code.)

Luckily, C# has most of the development speed and ease-of-use of VB combined with most of the power and respect of C++.
# July 12, 2004 7:25 PM

Thank you from Kinitos - Steven Woods said:

We just wanted to thank Tim for his two minute outburst 47 minutes and 10 seconds into this episode about our little Smart Client Management startup Kinitos :-)! It has been a pleasure for our guys to get to know Tim and his company Interknowlogy ... and no doubt this will require some significant co-endorsement along the way :-). Now maybe some other folks besides the Microsoft VS.NET guys will hear about Kinitos!

Thanks for your great show as always guys.

All the best,
The Kinitos Gang


--
Steven Woods
President/coFounder
Kinitos www.kinitos.com
# July 12, 2004 7:46 PM

Daveo said:

My.Programming.Language.Is.Better.Than.Yours()

:)
# July 12, 2004 8:37 PM

Jason Olson said:

First of all, I will admit that I am actually a C# guy myself and love it. However, I totally agree with Carl that the reasons are total bull-honkey. With that said, I believe that choosing which language you use is mostly just a personal decision (it's all basically syntactical sugar anyways (since it all gets compiled down to MSIL (disregarding Unmanaged code of course))).

Even though I personally like C#, I work with both C# and VB.NET and there are specific things that I like about both languages. With VB.NET, there are two primary reasons that I love working with it when I do: background compliation, and the AddressOf operator (which is an *awesome* tool to have when working with delegates). I can't explain really why I prefer C#, I think it is as simple as me liking curly braces instead of "End If" kinds of things.

However, it is a pet peeve of mine when someone tries to say that C# is superior to VB.NET. This is totally bogus and it just tells me how un-informed the person actually is. After all, if you get rid of the level of abstraction, we are all just coding in MSIL to begin with (assuming all the codebase is managed). Both languages have their strengths and their weaknesses. I wish people could just deal with that and accept that fact. "I have a dream, where all languages are created equal", yada yada yada.

Nice post Carl! :)
# July 12, 2004 8:45 PM

Sherrod Segraves said:

Carl, you said: "Their statement is false. The statement 'VB.NET is a toy language' Is false. The only way to say it truthfully is 'There is a perception that VB.NET is a toy language.'"

But yheir website says: "C# is perceived as a 'real' language where VB.Net is still perceived as a 'toy' language."

They are stating the unpleasant truth, and it's exactly what you say they should say. Maybe they changed their website after you wrote your post?
# July 12, 2004 10:31 PM

Carl said:

No, I was just ranting. You're right of course. It still makes me mad that I rarely hear people saying "VB is a toy language" anymore. All I hear is that people percieve of it. Fair enough. Let's stop talking about the minority who keey saying the sky is falling, and shine a light on reality. Nuff said.
# July 12, 2004 10:49 PM

Brad Corbin said:

You guys missed the best one:

2. "Your developers will be more productive because they will work in a language that they like."

What, because C# is the FUN language? Parties with curly braces?
# July 12, 2004 11:49 PM

Jerry Pisk said:

WHo woULD neED CASE SensITIVIty tHESe DAYs QuestIOn MARK anD WHY woULD aNyOnE uSE PUNctaTION whEN YOu can spELL iT OUt QUEstIon mARk THoSE are clEARly DRAGginG PRODUCTIVITY DowN CoMMa MAkiNG thE cOdE difFICult tO reAD Dot
# July 13, 2004 12:16 AM

Scott Swigart said:

Find me a consulting shop that says they will charge you more if you insist on having it written in VB.NET. If all the stuff we argue about doesn't manifest itself in something measurable, then by definition, it doesn't matter.

# July 13, 2004 12:25 AM

Andrew Baum said:

While I am a csharper, I completely agree with you Carl. It's time for everyone to move on from these types for arguments. The types of people that continue to use these arguments are so rooted in the past they've failed to realize that its all about the Framework today, not the language. The analogy I commonly use is this: Say you need to write a letter to someone. You have a pen, a pencil and a piece of paper. C# is the pen and VB.NET is the pencil (or the otherway around), and the letter is the IL code. It doesn't matter which one you write it with, the letter's content is the same.
# July 13, 2004 3:11 AM

Frans Bouma said:

"Um. VB.NET Whidbey has operator overloading AND XML Document generation. Look it up. "
Where can I buy VB.NET Whidbey? Version VS.NET 2008 also has great new features. And no-one can use them today.

Perhaps YOU should look up something, like the meaning of the words "Not yet available".

Today, tomorrow and even the first half of 2005 I can't use what you say that's available :)

"It's still not enough to make me switch."
That wasn't my intention, everybody should use what he/she thinks is best for his/her software development. That also means that if C# is better for some sort of software development, people shouldn't whine but switch, the same goes for the other way around of course. Like the constant stream of whining about E&C in C# or the lack thereof. If people like it so much, use the tool that has it. :)
# July 13, 2004 5:42 AM

Daren said:

I think one C#/VB.NET difference is even more simple than that.

Its a name thing. Sharp vs Basic

Now imagine you are non techy employer deciding who to hire or what wage to pay, you know nothing of curly brackets or overloads, do you pay more to the "Sharp Programmer" or to the "Basic Programmer" ?

Next your a software house selling a custom solution to your "hasn't a clue" customer, Do you say "We have a team of Sharp Programmers or a team of Basic Programmers ?"

OK, so all the VB houses will say "We have a team of .Net Programmers" but they are still bidding against the company down the road that has a "Team of Sharp .Net Programmers"

I think it is a marketing thing, perhaps it will change as business discovers it can get 5 vb programmers for the price of 4 c# programmers, but first it has to overcome the word BASIC, im not sure that will ever happen.
# July 13, 2004 6:24 AM

M Kenyon said:

Search for truth, it will be found.

I like not worrying about case, but still use case for my own pleasure. (VB.Net allows me to choose.)

It's also a matter of syntax. Csharpers sometimes come across with the attitude 'If you're not doing it the hard way, you're not a real programmer.' Maybe they don't say it outright, but it comes across...

Would you like to drive a car with an engine you build yourself, simply because a real driver builds his car from scratch? Silly really. If we want to do things the hard way, let's say a kit car, fine... it's a good thing to know how to do. But if your out their trying to get a solid product in short time, your not going to go and use something that restricts your speed.

Use the right tool for the job. If you can do the job faster in VB, do it. If C# is better for the job at hand, use that. If you have a team and can have some people that dabble in both, better yet.

Me, I'm VB. I came from the ranks of hobbyist, but would not consider myself hobbyist now. I stick with VB cause it does a professional job, but doesn't take me a lot of time.
# July 13, 2004 9:50 AM

Tom Vande Stouwe said:

It's about the money. If the C# community can get the perception that thiers is the 'Real Language' and has less resources, then they will be able to charge the client more for the work. Time to get some real world studies to see if 2 similiarly skilled developers can develop the same code in different languages and see who is the most productive.

I also teach VB.net and C#.net, and the studens seeing C# for the first time are intimidated by the syntax structure, where similiar students in thge VB.net courses bet teh syntax structure immediately. It is easier for them to read, and see errors. (I spend more time in the C# class checking for ;'s and that is just plain dumb)

Tom
# July 13, 2004 10:45 AM

Frans Bouma said:

Tom: well in VB.NET you have to check for '_' at the end of a wrapped line :) A C# developer hardly forgets a ';' like a VB.NET developer hardly forgets the '_', both because of the editor. If you develop C# or VB.NET in notepad for example, it would be much harder (and as I've done excessive C# to VB.NET porting in templates (thus no intellisense) I can tell you writing VB.NET without the VB.NET editor is no picknick ;))
# July 13, 2004 11:52 AM

Sean Harvell said:

I have used VB since VBDOS and currently use C# 70% of the time though I like the appearance of well coded Visual Basic.Net better…

>"VB.NET is a toy language"
I can pull up Visual Studio.Net – File > New > C# ASP.Net web application. I can drag a button on to the form. Double click the button and add 1000 lines of interface, business and data access logic directly into the Button1_Click event. I can do this in VB too without semicolons… In reality either language (as most languages) can be used ineffectively.

- I find often less technical individuals (customers) find it much easier to read and follow VisualBasic.Net code. It can be an advantage to explain simple logic sitting next to a user viewing clear written English on the screen. In a similar discussion using C# you would really have to go to diagram because it is much less readable to “the average person”. I personally know of developers who do realize that because C# code is not as easily read initially by an “untamed eye” due to additional syntactical elements and arrangements it is perceived as more complicated and also therefore perceived as “the more powerful language” and this is why they use it...

I develop mostly in C# because of the uneducated developers and companies you speak of that assume C# is better... Unfortunately when opportunities present themselves its easier to implement with C# then to evangelize why I should be compensated the same with VB.NET after showing them err of their misguided ways...

>“Saying one language is “better” than another is like saying Aramaic or Greek is better than English because that’s what the bible was written in and you can’t understand Christianity without reading and knowing these ancient tongues.”
Knowing Aramaic and/or Greek can be helpful in knowing actual words used and their original meanings prior to English and other translations such as Petros etc… We do have references for such not requiring us to memorize the entire language though….
# July 13, 2004 1:28 PM

Carolus Holman said:

A famous person once said, "Don't Mistake Kindness for Weakness." I would like to COOP that statement to, "Don't mistake Ease of Use for Lack of Power". Many people underestimate the power of simplicity, I remember a government employee telling me that MS-Word wasn't a real Word processor, Word Perfect would prevail in the end. Where is Word Perfect today? (Remember reveal codes?) When i first saw Word, I was hooked, when I first used VB.NET I was hooked. C# has too many syntactical anomolies for me to use easily. It's not that I am too stupid to understand it, it's just that I DON'T CARE or HAVE THE TIME to learn all of the syntax and place in my mental framework. Nice one Carl, it's time the gloves came off!
# July 13, 2004 1:41 PM

Joe Grenier said:

I'm surprised they didn't tout the "C# programmers are paid more" argument in the "For The Manager" section! Oh well, we all know managers are too dumb to look in that other column.

I actually really enjoyed the User Testimonials: "Great tool to develop the application in VB.Net as your preferred language but then deploy and expose the code as C#". Gee, and I thought you deployed assemblies, not source code. Back to the docs for me!
# July 13, 2004 3:19 PM

Dan Appleman said:

Well, despite being quoted here, I already weighed in on this topic in my ebook "Visual Basic .NET or C#: Which to Choose". There I go into a great deal of depth comparing the two languages and suggesting when you might want to choose one over the other. Right now it's really a wash - both languages have strengths and weaknesses.

I happen to personally prefer VB .NET because I really like background compilation - it makes me more productive. The lack of unsafe code doesn't bother me, because in applications where I really need unsafe code I'm doing a lot of mixing of COM/pointers and .NET, and for those I like to use C++ - which is really brilliant at mixing safe/unsafe/managed/unmanaged.

I'll be reviewing VB .NET and C# again, probably with the next Whidbey Beta. Based on what I've seen so far, I don't expect either to prove decisively better than the other.

The truth is, as any real .NET developer knows - it's not about the language, it's about the framework. Any C# developer worth his while can read and write VB .NET and vice versa.

Dan
# July 13, 2004 7:36 PM

Dan Appleman said:

Oh, and by the way... I did like Carl's response very much. Sometimes extremist zeolots need to be responded to with extremist zeolotry.

I took a slightly different swing at it in my recent VS Magazing article.

Dan
# July 13, 2004 7:39 PM

Rob Teixeira said:

As a response to an earlier comment - XML documentation is in fact available right now. You can download the VB Powertoys from GotDotNet.com, and/or use it with nDoc. With Whidbey, the feature doesn't require a separate download.

> Now with .Net, VB is a more full-featured language, but it still doesn't have unmanaged code. (Yes, I need unmanaged code.) <

Well, I guess that means you can't use C# either. The only language MS makes that targets the .NET platform AND compiles *unmanaged* code is MC++. I really am tired of repeating this.
# July 14, 2004 9:39 AM

Carl said:

That's true. Unsafe code is not Unmanaged code. C# is managed, even when using pointers.
# July 14, 2004 9:41 AM

mike said:

I'm surprised that no one pointed out that the source of all this debate is a site whose business is specifically in converting VB code to C#. Why would anyone expect an objective viewpoint from them?
# July 14, 2004 11:33 AM

David V said:

I think the point is entirely missed here. Having programmed in many languages (FORTRAN, Pascal, C++, Java, etc) Ive learned one thing; great programming transcends language. I could give Lance Armstrong the cheapest bike in the world, and hed still kick my ass on the most expensive bike in the world. Its not the language, its the expression of the idea. These so called zealots of any language will always be just mediocre programmers until they learn to get pass language obsession. By the way I dont program in VB or C#, I program .Net.
# July 14, 2004 1:08 PM

Joe Grenier said:

mike,
"I'm surprised that no one pointed out that the source of all this debate is a site whose business is specifically in converting VB code to C#."

That's kind of what I was getting at by poking fun at the "User Testimonials" and "For The Manager" sections of their site. What we've got here is clumsy marketing-speak, not true zealotry.
# July 14, 2004 2:43 PM

Kathleen Dollard said:

Well, its an old argument...

I want to weigh in and point out that they are different languages. It does matter which you work with. There are things better and worse in each, and each language team is focused on fixing different things. Frans is right that there's some oversights in interfaces in VB (I think Whidbey may address this one). But have you really tried to manage various scoping options in interface implementations in C# - its a piece of cake in VB. You can't shadow by name in C# at all. VB's declarative, C# isn't (except attributes). VB's like a partner, C#'s like a tool. Some people like tool's and C# works like a computer - which can be good if you like that. My sons prefer C#, I prefer VB.

My point is not that VB is better, but that its not just an unimportant casual preference, like for different types of chocolate. It's a match between the way you think and the way the language works. If I was a manager, I'd give this test to my developers. I could not afford the logic errors that would result if they're immediate (2 second) reaction was wrong. (You can translate to VB.NET)

int i = 2;
int j = 3;
if (i/j > 0) then
{ /* Is this code executed? */ }

Also, the salary survey that the website quoted was fatally flawed. It was from a time that far more C# programmers were consultants and far more VB.NET programmers were hires. The survey did not account for this, and comparing cash income from conslutants and hires is just stupid.
# July 14, 2004 9:17 PM

Bill Ryan said:

This debate is soooooo tired. Like Dan said, it's ALL about the framework.
# July 14, 2004 11:10 PM

Josh Pollard said:

Great show guys! I can't wait for the next CD!
# July 16, 2004 8:43 AM

Tony Miles [non zealous C# programmer!] said:

Sounded great to me - nice guitar playing & your voices go together very well I think.
# July 16, 2004 12:39 PM

Jeremy Marsch said:

What a thread this created!

I use C#, but I won't count myself an elitist -- I think that the whole .Net family is incredible technology.

For me, there is one interesting theme that plays through these C# vs VB arguments: There _are_ differences in the languages. We know that .net languages are allowed to be different, as long as they are compliant with some base rules.

For me, here's the million dollar question: Why do VB.Net and C# differ in the ways that they do? What's the message? What's the theme? Is there coordination between the C# and VB.net teams, where they decide what sensible differentiation to apply, or are the differences that we see just the result of open competition or at least a lack of coordination between the VB and C# teams?

There just doesn't seem to be a consitent plan dividing the features. And for that matter, should there be features absent from either language? If VB and C# are both built on .Net, and they both leverage the same framework, and are built by the same company, and they are both billed as industrial-strength languages, why shouldn't VB have every feature that is in C# and vice-versa?
# July 16, 2004 3:29 PM

vbNullString said:

These guys are selling their little program to convert from VB .NET to C#. So it makes sense for them to make up stupid reasons to convert VB .NET to C# to sell their crap.
# July 16, 2004 5:42 PM

M Kenyon said:

Rob Teixeira, I couldn't find the XML documenter.
# July 19, 2004 10:00 AM

Eddy Recio said:

I guess am chiming in a bit late, but I still want to make a point.

It seems like I have heard a similar argument before, I wonder where…. Ahhh yes, I have this very same argument all the time with “real” CS geeks, who think that using a “toolkit” like the .NET framework is for sissies. They can write wrapper classes better! They can make better parsers in their sleep! They can, well you get the point. While I don’t doubt that certain talented people can write a better framework than the folks at MS. Who cares! I need productivity, I don’t have the time to write it myself, so I’ll use what ever tool fits the job at hand! The square peg in round whole example Carl uses all the time! So it seems we should band together under the Framework and not which language. After all there are lots of CS depts. in colleges all over the country that still only teach C, C++ and Java, and , .NET is viewed as part of the Evil empires goal to take over the world. And so in closing, while the latter statement might be true (jk), let’s convince the low level folks that writing your own shell and parsers is not the way the real world moves, unless of course you’re working on a framework team ;).

My $5 worth!
# July 19, 2004 11:03 AM

Bruce Haslam said:

Three cheers for the "SLECT CASE" statement in Vb.net. This statement is flexible, elegant and powerful. C#'s is clumsy, constricted and downright ugly.

In my opinion, of course!

All you zealots, GET A LIFE!!!

Bruce
# July 19, 2004 1:01 PM

Dan K said:

Carl,

You also forgot to add that VB coders bathe and wash their hair more! Cleanliness is next to Gatesliness you know.
# July 20, 2004 12:31 PM

Carl said:

Well, it's really the C++ programmers that have dirty hair. :)
# July 20, 2004 1:27 PM

Dan K said:

Yeah well "those people" all look the same to me anyways.
# July 20, 2004 2:40 PM

Arthur Dzhelali said:

so home come she is in men's jail?
# July 20, 2004 2:49 PM

Vinnie Tripodi said:

A better name for this mag would be

Martha Stewart Living... Behind Bars
# July 20, 2004 2:54 PM

TomB said:

Coooool, can't wait.
# July 21, 2004 2:22 PM

Paul said:

Great... should be a good show. Jeff is a great speaker.
# July 21, 2004 4:07 PM

Paulo Correia said:

What mountain i have to climb to earn that?
Or maybe, wich pinguim must i kill ;)

# July 21, 2004 10:14 PM

Str@fe said:

HO-LY CRAP - This one is MINE!

System.This.M200.Belongs.To.Strafe!

Did I win?!
# July 21, 2004 10:22 PM

SBC said:

I am coming down to New London from W Hartford right now!!
;-)
# July 22, 2004 6:13 AM

M Kenyon said:

I'll beat you, I'm only in E Hartford! I was in N London Sunday... (Stalking Carl, waiting for the latest Swag!)
# July 22, 2004 8:25 AM

Rob R said:

Don't you guys have anything better to do with your time?

Grow up.
# July 22, 2004 8:31 AM

SBC said:

you do realize that Martha is moving quite near into your neighborhood (in Danbury, CT) ?
:-)
# July 22, 2004 8:39 AM

Carl said:

Well, she lives in Westport, CT. That's actually closer to New London than Danbury.
# July 22, 2004 1:27 PM

mike said:

:( i found i had some error and i cant work out y
# July 22, 2004 5:08 PM

Amber said:

Hey you rock! Are you guys out of New London? Im in that area!
# July 22, 2004 5:22 PM

Amber said:

Carl,
It's not that C# is a better programming language than VB (even thought it really is). You are correct it is a personal preference. It's just that people who prefer C# are better.

anywho, I take it you are a VB Man. I was a VBer until I figured out c# is less typing. To me that is the major advantage. Less Verbosity.
# July 22, 2004 5:49 PM

Josh Baltzell said:

I don't think any of you understand how many times I have looked at that laptop. It will be mine.
# July 24, 2004 1:05 AM

Mark Anthony Spiteri said:

Awesome!! I have been considering purchasing that Tablet for quite some time now... drooling....
# July 24, 2004 4:04 AM

Stuart Hallows said:

As long as I don't have to listen to another two hours of Clemens Vasters I'm up for it!
# July 24, 2004 6:23 PM

Amber said:

Carl,
I really really want that tablet PC!! Did I mention I was in the Salivation Army!

Rock On!
# July 25, 2004 6:15 PM

Nicholas Sing said:

*Drools on screen*
# July 27, 2004 2:22 AM

benj said:

My personal preference is C#. I don't believe VB.NET should have come to exist at all, but I have begun to acknowledge its place for the thousands of VB developers out there. It is though, just syntactic sugar for those people, with only a skin-deep resemblence to VB6.

Point 2 - I would agree with. C# doesnt try to turn code into babytalk, rather allow developers to pick it up quickly because of it's remarkable similarity to Java, and it's syntactic similarity to C/C++, PHP, Java, JavaScript etc.

Point 3 - Is of course right.

Point 4 - Well, the reasoning for such comments should also be obvious, but I am a strong proponent of the 'Why make it more difficult than needs be' argument. I would have given this same argument more credit for VB6 because it was it's own language with it's own origins.

Point 5 - Wouldn't surprise me. But I am not in that team so what would I know?

Point 6 - Now come on.. Wrong? Because it's GOING to be in the next version? Would it be wrong to say VB.NET 2002 developers didn't have access to bitshift operators until 2003 came out?

Anyway, really I don't mind what people use until it affects my work directly, in which case I will of course TRY to steer clear of VB.NET
# July 27, 2004 3:15 AM

Nicholas Sing said:

Umm does it have a wifi card in it?
# July 27, 2004 3:53 AM

Carl said:

Yes. WIFI is built in.
# July 27, 2004 2:08 PM

Scott Hanselman said:

I think that's a silly band-aid and makes no sense. RunAs isn't that hard, just Shift-Right-Click on Icons to expose RunAs. Hardly a hassle. I certainly don't want my priviledges to change based on something so transient as my connection status.
# July 27, 2004 3:06 PM

Ryan Rinaldi said:

Interesting thought, but I'm curious as to how connected is "online"? At work I'm connected all day, but that doesn't mean I'm attached to the big amalgamation of evil that is the Internet. XP doesn't know the difference between being connected to a network and being "online", and until it can I think your band-aid would still have you running with least-priviledge.
# July 27, 2004 3:22 PM

Carl said:

Good point, Ryan. I'm going for what I think is doable. It isn't possible for MS to rearchitect the kernel now so that it can walk the call stack looking for what program executed a vulnerability exploit and whether that app came from the Internet or not. That can work with managed code apps, but since the browser is never going to be rewritten with managed code it's not possible.

I don't think "upgrade to Longhorn" is the answer in every case, either. Longhorn is going to take a serious hardware upgrade for many people. From MS' perspective it might be too good to be true: Make security work in Longhorn and don't touch XP/2000 so that everyone will HAVE to upgrade just for security purposes.

I don't see that as a bad thing, necessarily. I just wish there was something better that ordinary slobs could do besides deal with RunAs all the time.

Scott, it's not a hassle for you, geekbrain! It is a hassle for my family, none of whom even know what an administrator is.



# July 27, 2004 3:33 PM

nospamplease75@yahoo.com (haacked) said:

But that creates another hassle for family members. Now they'll think they have to disconnect the network cable in order to install the latest cool program they downloaded off the internet. The program is free to do whatever at this point. Havoc ensues at this point, or when they re-connect.
# July 27, 2004 4:12 PM

Tom Vande Stouwe said:

Interesting, but I think the better solution would be to block all connection off the local lan when you are run as mode.

TOm
# July 27, 2004 5:01 PM

Nicholas Sing said:

w00t!!!!! That is so cool!!! *Drools on carls tablet pen*
# July 27, 2004 11:14 PM

Ken Park said:

Dude, I'm getting an error when submitting the second part of the survey.
# July 28, 2004 7:43 AM

ItDoesNotWork said:

Same here (Server Error in '/dnrforms' Application.)
# July 28, 2004 9:41 AM

Str@fe said:

It seemed to work for me - Yahoo! I'm the only one who can enter! I told you I was gonna win!
# July 28, 2004 9:47 AM

Carl said:

Ken, email me your selections and I'll see if I can duplicate the error. Right now I can't.
# July 28, 2004 10:09 AM

myeager@siriusware.com (Mike Yeager) said:

I got redirected back to the second page, but it then told me "good luck". Also, when I selected "Professional" level developer, the drop-down list of industries was disabled, so I'm in the "Communication Carrier" business!
# July 28, 2004 12:27 PM

Carl Franklin said:

To anyone who had problems, try it again. I was using session state with cookies. If you had cookies turned off all sorts of weird stuff will happen.

Anyway, we're cookieless now. :-)
# July 28, 2004 12:50 PM

Andrew Baum said:

Company type combo is still disabled when selecting Professional Developer.
# July 28, 2004 12:57 PM

Chris Bilson said:

Aaron Margosis's blog Rocks! I wish this was around 6 months ago (and that I had found it), when I first started running as non-admin. I'm sure everyone has seen Keith Brown's security wiki.

What I ended up doing was adding a toolbar to my task bar, with a whole bunch of .lnk's, to "runas /user:hostname\la /savecred "rundll32.exe shell32.dll,Control_RunDLL sysdm.cpl" for example. I have all of the things I ever use from the control panel, and MMC console with all my favorite snap-ins, a link to iexplore.exe running as local admin, which I use as a surrogate Explorer (as per Keith Brown), and a link to a command prompt window running as admin. It took me weeks to accumulate this stuff. It _really_ sucks when you are nitpicky, and want to see the icons for the things that are being runas, and have to change all the icons for the .lnk's.

Now that I have this folder, I can take it with me to all the machines I have to run on. Now running as a normal user isn't so bad and I kind of like it. It makes you stop and think before you do something stupid. Kind of like sudo on Unix.

The _only_ thing that still bugs me is that when I run Enterprise Manager as an admin, I can manage my local SQL Server, but need to switch to another console running as my domain account to manage other servers. It's too bad Enterprise Manager doesn't let you specify credentials per connection.
# July 28, 2004 4:17 PM

Chris Bilson said:

That was an awesome show! I sure hope you guys get him on .NET Rocks again.
# July 28, 2004 4:18 PM

Carl said:

Can you just Run IE as a regular User? Will that not do the trick?
# July 28, 2004 4:20 PM

Jeff Fansler said:

Many of the solutions that have been posted are good for geeks who know there way around windows, but run-as is not a solution for the average user. My family didn't even like it when they had to start logging in to their computers. They just want to turn it on and use it. IMHO this is one of the biggest problems with security right now. I have a younger brother who just received his first computer. It ran great for about a month. After that he started complaining about how slow it was. I took a peek at it and it had so much junk installed I was amazed. The only solution was to backup/format/re-install. This doesn't typically happen to me because I can make educated guesses about what software is dangerous and what isn't, but my little brother can't, and either can most computer users. If I setup my little brothers computer to use run-as, he would just use it to install the latest innocent looking totally useless spyware app.

I wish I had a solution. Heck I don't even know who to blame. For now, I resort to the backup/format/re-install every 6 months or so.
# July 28, 2004 4:33 PM

Peter Stathakos said:

Done and done.

Come to papa baby. BTW, Carl, there's some 25 year old scotch in it for you. And for Rory um, how about some cold hard cash?
# July 28, 2004 5:27 PM

Paul S. said:

Sorry Peter, this one is mine!! I must have entered at least 10 times. I didn't read anywhere that you could only enter once!! :)
# July 28, 2004 8:42 PM

Carl said:

Duplicates will be rejected, of course. :)
# July 28, 2004 9:58 PM

Paul S. said:

I figured as much. :)
# July 29, 2004 8:13 AM

Chris Bilson said:

Jeff,

Get Dan Appleman's book for your kid brother. Unless some miracle happens, we will always have security problems with computers connected to huge networks. If people want to use computers like this, they either have to learn to live with the security obligations, or relegate themselves to using only web based applications. It is the later case where running as a non-admin fits perfectly.

Carl,

Running only IE as a normal user sounds like a good solution, but there are about a dozen other applications that I use constantly that connect to the internet that need to be run as normal users too (RSS Bandit, Outlook, heck...even Word!)

It's easier just to run as non-admin and only runas admin for the things I really need to be an admin for. I have a well defined list of what those things are and just use my short-cuts. It's really pretty easy once everything is set up.

Just be prepared to be slightly less productive while you get used to it.
# July 29, 2004 9:07 AM

David V. Corbin said:

Point #7 is the real interesting one. The [microsoft] developers for Whidbey placed generics as #17 on their priority list. It was #1 on the list for the C# developers.

As (beta) shipment neared, it was apparant that they were NOT going to get to item #17. An uproar [internal to MS] occured, "We have to have generics BECAUSE C# does!".

As a result 6 items which were deemed more important than generics [by user survey, internal analysis, etc] were abandoned for this release!!!!

Now we hav a language wich supports a given feature, NOT because it was a top ranking request, NOT because it was internally deemed technically important, BUT simply to appease a complaint that was marketing related!

# July 29, 2004 12:58 PM

Jeff Fansler said:

That looks like a good book Chris, thanks. I already sent a link to my brother. I only see this as a short term (necessary) fix though. If car theft became a huge problem and the solution was that everyone had to read a book in order to secure their car, people would not be happy. Instead, car manufacturers use things like locks, alarms, and GPS tracking. These are all things that consumers accept without any concerns. I know comparing cars to software is a dangerous road to go down (no pun intended), but I really believe that security must be easy. Easy to the point where the majority users don't concern themselves with it. Of course some breaches will always happen, but where we are at now is mayhem.
# July 29, 2004 3:07 PM

francisco lopez said:

Carl,
Having similar problems here.

I think what will be nice to have is the ability to throtle (so to speak) your permissions at will while logged on. For example, if you need to do something requiring admin rights, you would click a button - raising perms to x - and that's that.

Just a thought.

# July 29, 2004 6:11 PM

Iain said:

I thought that it was obviously open to people outside america because the form lets you enter your country.

Unfortunately, being in a different timezone and all, It's not easy for me to arrange to be telephonable between 10 and 12 US Eastern (I'm in AU EST, which is +14 or so hours relative to you). Is that going to be a disqualify me?
# July 31, 2004 12:35 AM

Carl Franklin said:

It would be great to call the winner on the show, but it's not necessary.
# July 31, 2004 12:48 AM

Meh said:

Now if only the web form wasn't throwing an exception...
# July 31, 2004 1:53 AM

Carl Franklin said:

Try it again. It does work. We've collected over 1600 entries, and I just tried it again.

Turn cookies on?
# July 31, 2004 2:03 AM

Meh said:

It happens when you enter a non-integer value in the "How many developers are there in your organization" question of the form. I originally put down 'Unsure'.
# July 31, 2004 2:49 AM

Carl Franklin said:

Aha. It's the old evil input thing.
# July 31, 2004 2:50 AM

Nicholas Sing said:

lol if I "Won" then my mom would probably answer the phone cause I'm at school. ;-)
# July 31, 2004 3:38 AM

James D. Beine said:

Oohhhh!!! how I would love to win a Tablet PC! I guess sucking-up isn't going to do any good. Is this a completely random selection or is there a definite and meaningful selection process? If this contest's rules are posted somewhere, and I just overlooked them; please direct me. Kudos to DNR for the .NET Rocks! Tablet PC Listener Giveaway. PS: Carl, if sucking-up will indeed help my chances, I am there! - JB.
# July 31, 2004 10:25 AM

Carl said:

Well, James, sucking up is always appreciated, but in this case it won't help. My computer is going to pick one lucky entry at random.
# July 31, 2004 10:28 AM

James D. Beine said:

That's cool. Pleease forward this to your computer just-in-case: Carl's computer is the best computer on the net! -JB.
# July 31, 2004 11:07 AM

Daveo said:

Evil input? Nooo, evil validation. :)
# August 1, 2004 5:50 PM

M Kenyon said:

Can we enter more than once?
# August 2, 2004 1:26 PM

Carl Franklin said:

You can enter as many times as you like, but we'll only consider your entry once. :-)
# August 2, 2004 1:59 PM

Carl Franklin said:

Yeah, that was an exceptionally great show, wasn't it?
# August 3, 2004 9:17 PM

Ian Blackburn said:

About your computer picking the lucky entry at random, will you be using System.Random? And if so what will be your seed value? I don't know how I could use this information but it gives me hope...
# August 6, 2004 7:01 AM

Carl said:

Yes, I'm going to use System.Random, seeded with Now.Ticks.

There are currently about 2500 entries.

Do you feel lucky now?
# August 6, 2004 7:40 AM

Ian Blackburn said:

hmmm, could you tell me *exactly* when you plan on running that bit of code, how many times you will run it, and precisely how many entries you currently have, and if new entries are added sequentially with duplicates deleted from the start. Please?

Ian
# August 6, 2004 12:01 PM

Carl said:

Sure. Would you like me to ship it to you by UPS or FedEx?
# August 6, 2004 1:05 PM

What is the Point? said:

Not sure why you have this Martha Stewart parody on your site. This is a .NET site (so I thought). The joke is not original and seems off-color.

Seems you should stick to .NET topics, or at least programming topics in general.
# August 6, 2004 2:21 PM

Subah said:

i think Acer TravelMate 303XMi is the best , becouse its have every thing , is there any body with me ?
# August 10, 2004 9:10 PM

RPS said:

What are the main arguments for/against case-sensitivity in C#? I like being able to use TitleCase for my methods and properties, and thisCase for my parameters and fields. (I hate using under_stupid_scores for things.
# August 11, 2004 12:51 PM

Get off Carl's Back... said:

I thought it was funny. Don't rag on Carl... Oh wait, is this Martha?!?
# August 12, 2004 9:42 AM

Nicholas Sing said:

Dot Net Nuke sounds pretty cool! But I don't trust giving out my personel information to something like this.
# August 16, 2004 3:37 AM

Maxim V. Karpov said:

It should be a good show. I will tune in.

[www.ipattern.com do you?]
# August 16, 2004 4:55 PM

Sahil Malik said:

Are you going to do it with Devconnections? If there are any free nights around devconnections, (because I remember every evening there was some sort of party goin' on already), this sounds like a good idea. Also in the party @ devconn, we should have some well known top geeks go to the stage and geek out - obviously remembering that geeks are bad as comedians, so it has to be impromptu and light hearted.
# August 20, 2004 4:44 PM

Carl said:

Kimberly Tripp wrote me back with this comment:

> It would be interesting to see how many people would pay just to hang out? You might need to offer lectures or something and once you get into that you have a whole bunch of logistical nightmares... <

I don't want it to be another conference, but maybe a few topical panel discussions would be good, if we can get the room.
# August 20, 2004 4:46 PM

Carl said:

> Are you going to do it with Devconnections? <

This is certainly a good idea, and the though had crossed my mind to piggy back with DevConnections somehow.
# August 20, 2004 4:47 PM

Don Kiely said:

Great idea! Count me in (it still stings that I had to miss the Redmond gathering), but I can't do it *after* DevConnections.

I would actually prefer it separate from a conference. There is plenty of geeking out there, and it would be fun to meet somewhere/somewhen else in a different place.
# August 20, 2004 4:50 PM

Richard Campbell said:

The three cheapest places to fly to for just about every one are Las Vegas, Phoenix and Orlando. They also happen to be places that are relatively cheap to stay at, and to get space for a party in.

Personally, I like Vegas best.
# August 20, 2004 4:53 PM

ActiveNick said:

Great idea... whether it's at DevConnections, in New London or whatever, count me in. I can be the token Canadian if you want (although I'm a New Yorker now).

Seriously, either you could have a small cover (less than 25$) for the venue and then people buy their own drinks, or you can charge more and have an open bar... but I recommend the former.

As for geeking out, having a stage and do some jam sessions, stand-up comedy and such would be great. I'd bring my djembe drum and I might also try some stand-up... I'm sure others would join in.

I would steer clear of official panels and such, and while people would surely talk tech there, it should definitely be more of a party than a conference sideshow... kinda like the old Geekfests... I miss those.
# August 20, 2004 4:55 PM

Chris Sells said:

If I'm going to hang out with my friends in Vegas, I don't expect to spend any time next to a computer. : )
# August 20, 2004 5:18 PM

Carl said:

My thoughts exactly. This is all about fun, networking, and fun.
# August 20, 2004 5:20 PM

Roy J. Salisbury @ VsDevCentral said:

Great! I live in Vegas, so it will be easy for my to attend something like this. I just wish MS would have more stuff here (such as the PDC).
# August 20, 2004 5:37 PM

Don Kiely said:

I don't think that you should put a big emphasis on "attendees". Advertise it, let people know that they can come hang out with some cool people, and geek out however they want. I see it as a way to hang out with friends, do some fun stuff, and maybe--but not importantly--learn some stuff. The social networking part of the conference experience.
# August 20, 2004 5:45 PM

Rob Windsor said:


Hey Carl,

Great idea! Looking at those who've responded so far maybe the weekend should be for Canadians only. Oh, plus you, Rory and Geoff... and I guess Chris should come too since he got screwed out of the Tablet contest... oh, and Don Kiely because anyone who lives north of Medicine Hat has to have some Canadian in him...
# August 20, 2004 6:01 PM

James Steele said:

Great idea Carl.

I have already booked for Devconnections so that would be great timing.
# August 20, 2004 8:58 PM

Mark Dunn said:

You might want to check with the hotels regarding space. If you can get 200+ people to stay at a particular hotel and possibly gamble, I bet they will give some free space for meeting times and probably some discounts on the room as well.

If my schedule permits, count me in as well. I also find the foocamp idea fascinating. Get some sponsers to give away some goodies and I believe plenty of listners would find that a $99 value for the weekend. A bunch can probably write it off as a company expense.

My .02,

-mark
# August 20, 2004 9:22 PM

Dan Appleman said:

I know it may not be practical, but I think it would be fun to do it on a cruise ship. During the off season they aren't too expensive. Carnival's Fantasy class ships have a card room and library that are almost always emtpy. We could cut a deal with the cruise ship for discounted Internet access.

Dan
# August 20, 2004 10:25 PM

Scott Hanselman said:

Hm.... www.geekcruises.com ?
# August 21, 2004 4:58 AM

Rob Windsor said:


The cruise is a good idea if you want what Geek Cruises offers but I don't think it works for what Carl's talking about. You can't really cruise for a weekend or on a tight budget while Vegas allows the option for both.
# August 21, 2004 6:16 AM

Marshall Brooke said:

Carl,

There is also the Interlocked.Increment method which takes a reference to an Int32/64 variable and atomically adds 1 to it. I'm not sure about the performance implications over Synclock/lock, but it may perform better for just incrementing an int.

best

Marshall
# August 22, 2004 9:30 AM

Carl said:

Yes indeed. Good point. It's hard to come up with a good synclock demo that doesn't generate a lot of data
# August 22, 2004 10:36 AM

Kevin McNeish said:

Sounds like a great idea...If you can get Markus Egger to wear lederhosen and give yodeling lessons you could probably charge at LEAST $99.
# August 22, 2004 4:16 PM

Karim M Garza said:

Great Carl!

My wife and I are planning on a trip to Las Vegas, maybe I can try to go on the weekend that you guys are going to be there.
# August 23, 2004 9:52 AM

Kathleen Dollard said:

I think it would be great to ensure that the bulk of the events were held where the under 21 crowd could attend. There are a lot of brilliant young programmers that are financially cut out of most conferences. I do not know Nevada's laws regarding minors.

And Fairbanks is beautiful in the winter. It would be a great place for it. The Princess or maybe Chena Hot Springs should be able to hold us and we could go out walking on the river.
# August 23, 2004 10:21 AM

DonXML Demsak said:

I don't know if this is possible, but maybe we can do this Vegas thing the weekend after Chris Sells' XML Dev Con (Oct 20 & 21)? A bunch of us will be travel out west anyway, and then we can fly down to Vegas, hang, and then go home. Probably not enough time to pull it off, but I thought I'd suggest it.
# August 23, 2004 10:31 AM

Brian Kuhn said:

I would pay to go to Vegas just to hang with the DNR crowd, regardless of whether their is a confernece going on, but that would make it easier for me to get work to pay for travel. Looking forward to seeing more details.
# August 23, 2004 10:40 AM

Barry Gervin said:

Can't see the cruise happening - but can't find a good reason why Vegas isn't the best choice.
# August 24, 2004 12:58 AM

Paul Vick said:

Hey, sounds like fun!
# August 26, 2004 1:32 PM

Jeff Houck said:

Count me in I have needed an excuse to go to Vegas why not do when you can get the good speakers if they have COMDEX 2004 it had been scheduled to open November 14 I am not sure if it is still.
# August 27, 2004 9:04 PM

Bob Reselman said:

I really like Vegas, if not LA.
# August 30, 2004 2:49 PM

Scott Hanselman said:

Portland, OR, of course is preferred. :) Vegas, eh. Only if there's no smoking. Or booze.

The Excalibur?
# August 30, 2004 2:52 PM

Don Kiely said:

It'll start really late, right? I don't get in until 9 PM....
# August 30, 2004 2:58 PM

Bill Vaughn said:

Sorry, can't make it. I already have tickets to arrive Sunday afternoon/evening.
# August 30, 2004 2:58 PM

Scott Hanselman said:

That's a good point...most people already have tickets for DevConns.
# August 30, 2004 3:03 PM

Carl said:

It's already decided to be Vegas. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.
# August 30, 2004 3:05 PM

Carl said:

I guess we'd have to have a party one evening DURING the show. That kinda blows, but it's better than not having it, I guess.
# August 30, 2004 3:06 PM

Bill Vaughn said:

That would be fine with me. I'm staying until the afternoon of the 11th. I'm going from there to the UK for another gig.
# August 30, 2004 3:14 PM

Carl said:

Sunday night at DevConnections there is a desert reception in the expo hall that ends at 10PM. We could certainly do it on Sunday.

How about Sunday Night at the Mandalay Bay Resort? Markus, do you think you can get CoDe Magazine to sponsor it?

Maybe we could hand out copies of .NET Rocks! the movie? Maybe a screening?

I could get a suite at the hotel. Do you think that will be big enough? Should we have an RSVP site?
# August 30, 2004 3:31 PM

DonXML Demsak said:

It will be impossible to please everone. I know that I'll be flying out West to go to XmlDevCon mid October, just to turn around 2 weeks later to go to this party, but that's a price I'm willing to pay. And I will not even stay for DevConnections. I'm just itching to hang with some of my friends (well and maybe visit Vegas, too).
# August 30, 2004 3:34 PM

Barry Gervin said:

I have no plans to be at DevConnections, but I'll do my best to come for the party.
# August 30, 2004 3:46 PM

Julie Lerman said:

Kathleen and I will be camping and hiking out in the wilds of Nevada until Sunday. Don't forget most of the speakers had to lock in their plane reservations already.
# August 30, 2004 4:02 PM

Stephane Rodriguez said:


What about linking to the segments of the show that are of most notice, instead of just pointing the page/
# August 30, 2004 4:06 PM

Carl said:

I just checked Expedia. Fares are about $237 round trip from Hartford, CT. They are probably much cheaper from a closer location.
# August 30, 2004 4:40 PM

Carl said:

Julia,

The current plan is Sunday night. That works for most speakers.
# August 30, 2004 4:40 PM

Scott Hanselman said:

What about non-speakers who work Monday?
# August 30, 2004 5:35 PM

Carl said:

What about the Druids who have ritual animal sacrifices on Sunday nights???
# August 30, 2004 5:41 PM

Carl said:

Saturday WOULD be better for most people, that's for sure. It would be a shame though, for speakers who have already bought tickets.
# August 30, 2004 5:43 PM

Brian Noyes said:

Sunday night would work best for me. Spouses welcome?
# August 30, 2004 6:00 PM

Markus Egger said:

CoDe Magazine involvement is def. an option.
# August 30, 2004 6:09 PM

Dan Appleman said:

I would definitely attend Sunday. Saturday would not be possible.

Dan
# August 30, 2004 6:18 PM

James Steele said:

Carl,

Sunday works for me. I am looking forward to meeting you guys.
# August 30, 2004 7:28 PM

Jim Duffy said:

I'm not going to be attending DevConnections and will have just been in Vegas for the Advisor show in early October so odds are (get it? odds are, you know Vegas and all, Oh never mind!) you won't be seeing me.

Jim
# August 30, 2004 11:24 PM

ActiveNick said:

I'm getting in a day early on Saturday as I have never been to Vegas and wanted to party a bit, so any night, including Saturday night, works for me, I'll be there.
# August 31, 2004 4:12 PM

Carl said:

Well, now I'm leaning toward Saturday, which will work better for anyone who is coming down JUST for the party.

All in favor?
# August 31, 2004 4:21 PM

ActiveNick said:

Brian... I sure hope spouses are welcome... more chicks for me to flirt with... *wink*
# August 31, 2004 4:25 PM

DonXML Demsak said:

I'm flying in on Friday and staying until Mon. so either works for me.
# September 1, 2004 8:57 PM

Mike M said:

Not planning on going to Devconnections, but would definitely be there for a party. Nov. 6th works for me.
# September 3, 2004 10:28 AM

Kory M said:

I'm not planning on Devconnections either, but would love to come to the party. Am I correct in assuming that this is an open invite for any DNR fans that can get out there?
# September 3, 2004 11:41 AM

Carl said:

Yes indeed! All are welcome!
# September 3, 2004 3:42 PM

Carl said:

Yes indeed! All are welcome!
# September 3, 2004 3:42 PM

Nicholas Sing said:

Carl I was gonna listen live on Thursday but I couldn't join the server.
# September 6, 2004 4:53 AM

Josh Baltzell said:

That sounds like quite a process to get it on there. When can we expect to see the video?
# September 6, 2004 6:28 PM

NJ John said:

Damn you people all to hell! I'm wearing a tin foil hat from now on.

A few weeks ago, I was e-mailing back and forth with skateboarder Tony Hawk's webmaster, Jaime, about some typo's I found on their site. Somehow it came up that he ran a goof site called MenWhoLookLikeKennyRodgers.com.

When you started the World Wide Weird segment recently, I kept saying to myself that I *have* to submit that one for the show. I'm just downloading the show now, and looking at the links list it appears that somehow, you beat me to the punch. Coincidence? I think not.

Damn you people! Stop stealing my thoughts! Arrrrggghhh!!!
# September 6, 2004 7:22 PM

NJ John said:

Um, it's Rogers, no "d". I fixed the Url.
# September 6, 2004 7:24 PM

Fred Beiderbecke said:

What about the media? I haven't found any that looks anywhere near affordable. Are the prices dropping or was this an expensive experiment?
# September 8, 2004 11:44 AM