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I thought it was a good read as well. I take it that the post was intended to assure web dev's that although there are not specifics yet, standards enhancements will come.

I think people are still venting off steam. People are not a caustic as they were when the IE blog started.

NOTE: if you are going to leave a comment against this thread, please also provide a link back to your own blog/site. Any further comments that don't contain a link to the authors site will be removed.

Is this a "get a life" post? LOL

There are quite a few very valid points.

http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2005/03/09/391362.aspx#391456

One of the reasons people are so vocal about this is because every time an IE "official" opens his mouth to say something, nothing's really concrete coming out. Lots of empty words.

Same situation with this post... the guy hasn't really said anything what so ever. He didn't mentioned any specifiec, didnt point out the what the new release is going to address... basicaly, he didn't say anything.

I also agree with opinion that words "fully" and "support" shouldn't be used in any way what so ever when describing IE. This is one of the things that will set off any developer that spends most of his time trying to figure out how to get CSS to work for IE and Mozilla in the same way. I happen to be one of those people.

Anyways... the point is, people who have a blog are not in position to tell other to get a life ;)

Alex

> every time an IE "official" opens his mouth to say something,
> nothing's really concrete coming out

Alex, it's their blog. Blog's are an ideal environment for informally communicating things. If you are looking for concrete things and reference documents, go to the IE page on Msdn.

I'm happy to listen to objective, constructive criticisms about "stuff" but, to just bag the shit out of some guy because he decided to say "Hi guys" is not on; it's not professional and it doesn't get anybody anywhere.

> Is this a "get a life" post? LOL

What do you think?

> Alex, it's their blog. Blog's are an ideal environment for
> informally communicating things. If you are looking for
> concrete things and reference documents, go to the IE
> page on Msdn.

That's not what I meant. I'm not looking for API docs. Myself along with many others just want to know what to expect from IE. I think the problem is that there's an "appearance of communicating" ideas, but in reality nothing new is said. I think it's that "appearence" is what setting people off who are already frustrated to no end.

Problem again is that they don't say or commit to anything...

> We will continue to improve our compliance under strict
> mode even when it breaks compatibility, and under quirks
> mode when it’s not damaging to our backwards compatibility.

This doesn't say anything at all... are they finally going to fully implement CSS1? They are aware of all the hacks and bugs in IE6 rendering engine... why not make IE7 ignore all those and just render everything as Mozilla does, ie in W3C suggested way? It will be mostly compliant with already existing code for Mozilla while IE6 will continue picking up on all the hacks...

Anyways, the point is... after a number of years people are tired and want to hear a commitment to specifics, not some vague abstracts.

Alex

So, do you think that it's "helpful" for 50 Css script kiddies to all slam the guy when he makes a post?

Out of curiosity - and I promise that this is not a loaded question - is there a "formal", definitive list of:

- how they are not currently fully implementing CSS1
- "all the hacks and bugs in IE6 rendering engine"

Is that laid out on the table anywhere and agreed upon? Because all I'm hearing is a group of whinging script kiddies who just love being negative.

Many of the comments _are_ downright embarrassing. But some are asking genuine questions, like Jims' (http://tinyurl.com/68chw) comment, respectfully asking for some specifics.

I think some of the issue stems from the attitude of the IE posters who insist on pointing out how good a job they've done in the past. Few deny that IE was a great product in it's time. The problem is that very little effort has been invested since they became market leaders, despite the multitude of customer requests.

People are - understandably I think - annoyed at Microsoft's lack of commitment about their plans and they want some solid ideas about what to expect in the future. So they can do their jobs easier, so they can plan their own futures. Note that I'm not advocating the personal insulting comments, just trying to explain why that undercurrent exists.

Oh, and there's a fairly comprehensive wiki on the various IE bugs here (http://tinyurl.com/27nof).

Thanks for the links Matt, I'll read through some of that stuff - although I have already read "Jims" comment/rant.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not just a shill, there are things about IE that annoy me too - some of them are even on the standards side of things.

It's just a pity that clear, concise arguments get muddied by this sea of negative developers; you see it a lot. Most of these developers are extreme hippocrites too I expect. Often I'll go to the blog of somebody who is slamming IE about standards and see that they haven't included simple things such as alt tags in their images and don't conform to the schema definition that they've attached to their pages:

http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fsublimesoftware.blogspot.com%2F

People should be balanced when presenting this sort of information and not be so ardent. While I hate some things about IE (and many other products) there are things that I totally love. Documentation is an example of this. My point here is that, if you look at the whole product you are in a much better position to present a balanced point-of-view that is more likely to be listened to.

I totally hear you, and I agree. Personally, I try to be balanced and even headed when discussing such topics simply because it's more productive.

All I'm saying is that I feel for (some) of the whingers - I've got many friends in web development that have been cursing IE for many _years_. Now that there is a channel of communication with that team I'm not surprised to see it being abused; a lot of pent-up frustrations are rearing their ugly head.

And in truth I believe Microsoft deserve some backlash. They've abused their monopoly of the market by ignoring customers.

That doesn't make the behaviour of some of the commenters OK, there's no excuse for that. However, an angry undercurrent is understandable.

And thanks for the validation link! :) When I finally shift my blog to my home server I'll ensure it validates; currently I'm using a Blogger template...

Darren, lets not have any name calling. I happen to be one of those "script kiddies". CSS has been 95% of my income for the last year and a half and I spend 50% of the time flipping between browsers and tweaking things to get both to render the same thing.

There's also a world of difference between valid HTML and incorrect box rendering. Just because I happen not to put a silly ALT tag in, doesn't mean IE's box rendering model is suddenly any better.

I think that if Microsoft wants to have the leading browser, they should stop talking about commitment and start showing it.

I'm sure they wouldn't like all the people who have "get firefox" button to just get rid of IE all together...

if(document.all) window.location = 'http://getfirefox.com';

:)

Maybe.

Has all of this good work that dilligent people such as Mr Holly and co. have done to expose the evilness of IE been surfaced on the ProductFeedback Center?

Perhaps if Mr. Wilson had begun by saying that the IE team was "aware of the shortcomings in IE6's W3C compliance" and the the team was "working hard" to resolve those issues in IE7 he might have elicited more sympathy.

I have worked in 'customer facing' positions all my life and I can assure you that there are two things that will drive customers away very quickly. One, deny you have a problem and two, insult your customer when he complains.

And yes, the IE ProductFeedback is stuffed with detailed examples of problems with IE. I think the major problem is that IE makes zero dollars for Microsoft. Its only purpose is to dominate the browser market.

ed

Here are my suggestions to make IE better http://www.ssw.com.au/SSW/Standards/BetterSoftwareSuggestions/InternetExplorer.aspx

Adam