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I don't subscribe to the too old argument. I'm over 40 and have returned to programming after a long period in senior managment, and still think I'm worth a line or two of decent code.

I actually think that the pressure is on the ever increasing numbers of young programmers who know how to 'write' software, but not how to 'design' software in relation to commercial end users.

Unfortunately the blogging phenomenon tends to exacerbate that 'development-centric' concept.

At 45 I observe this phenom as well and consider my future as a developer, which is all I want to be when I grow up. I don't agree with the theory that the brain chemistry changes to detract someone from being a good programmer. I certainly agree with your statement about being bumped-up to management; I would rather be an ice cream dipper at the local Ben & Jerry's than manage developers. If age does bring any obstacles to being a developer, to me it is a cyclic lack of drive and commitment to spend the after hours and late nights necessary to stay on top of ever-changing technology. Fortunately it is cyclic and at 45 I feel that I mostly live the life of a developer who continues to do what it takes to keep up with the young buckeroos and buckerettes.

You ask a very good question: Is it enough to continue learning and growing? On the surface, I would say "no. It is not enough." Then I consider the life of learning and growing we've known for so many years. I don't think we could change our perspective so much as to NOT continue to find satisfaction in learning and growing as developers. We are the lucky ones who can ask the question.

I hope to carry on this conversation with you again way down the road when we're 60+, my friend.

I'm battling this sort of thing too. Been in the industry since 1984 and am now 45.

In my company the positions have a grade.... maximum is 16 for _pure_ technical. Beyonf that involves management responsibilities.

They've periodically considered extending the technical track but haven't as yet. Management track extends to grade 19.

Here's the worst: I'm seriously considering how much burnout is settling in. You see, I've done something close to a virtual career path redirection three times already. First was in 1984 as college graduate. Second came in the late 80s when the PC started taking hold. Third change was in the mid 90s when I honed my Windows and web skills on MS products.

Do I _really_ want to upgrade to .NET? Yes. But at what price? Can I honestly say I'll be using anything remotely comparable to .NET when I'm 55? That is extremely tough to say.

Instead, I might seek other certification..... radon and mold detection (go figure!). At least there I can utilize my technical skills without ever becoming obsolete. And my primary goal is to sell myself - not what I can accomplish using the latest and greatest programming platform.

I guess I understand exactly what you are saying.

I wholeheartedly disagree with this statement:

<quote>
..this idea that at some point you just get too old to program.
</quote>

Hogwash! It's all about your attitude and how you see yourself.

The way I see things is that I get *better* with age. I've learned how to write code that is less likely to break. I've learned how to debug quicker. I've learned what things to do. I've learned what things not to do. I've learned how to research. I've learned how to solve problems quickly. I've learned how to deliver. I've learned how to better estimate how long a system will take me to write. I've learned how to design and architect systems.

The one advantage that I think young developers typically have over us is that they (in general) don't have family commitments to deal with. They have more time to "play" with new technologies.

You asked:
<quote>
Can you overcome the changes in how we think and react as we age with the experience we have gained?
</quote>

What changes are you referring to? Do you have any medical and/or scientific proof of these so-called changes? Any links would be helpful, if they even exist.

--
Rick

Hmm.. I'm thinking about hiring someone who is 48 because I want his experience here. He programs quite well if you ask me and his experience is priceless.

Well, I do think that an older programmer can bring things to the table that many younger programmers cannot. This might be programming experience, industry experience, etc. Of course as a 47 year old programmer, I think I can program as well as the next guy or gal, and frankly better than many.

But in some respects, the world of program development, especially Web development, is often a world of younger people.

As far as changes in how we think, I for one know that there are certain changes to my memory. I sometimes search for words that would naturally roll off my toung 10 or 15 years ago. This is most often in my personal life, and much to the chagrin of my wife, I have amazing memory for obscure technical facts (want to know what the bit pattern was for color bytes in an IBM CGA monitor? I know!).

As for ceilings in a corporate culture, I see these all the time, and it happens even for people a lot younger than me. I work at a client site where my technical contact is someone under 40, perhaps the best Delphi programmer I have ever seen (he can do amazing things with Delphi!) and he has been told by his manager that after 5 years at the company, there is essentially no rais in his future unless he becomes a manager. Dave, he would join you at Ben and Jerry's scooping out ice cream before that would happen. If there was a technical path where he could be a technical lead, without the HR and other paperwork, he would be thrilled, and he would be great. Sadly that company has no such track.

For myself, after landing in a .COM a little late to become rich<g> and adjusting to the somewhat faster pace in the .COM world (there was much less pressure to get the code perfect than to get it out there, as the cost of making corrections was ever so much lower than the cost of corrections when distributing CD's at my prior employer, a ISV) I watched in horror as the .COM died shortly after 9/11. Fortunately, I had a reasonable amount of side consulting work (I was doing 4 day weeks at the .COM) and so I just expanded the consulting, and have been working full time doing consulting for perhaps a half dozen clients since then.

Consulting as a developer is in many respects a perfect meritocracy: Many folks I work for either don't know me except by voice or email, and in any event do not see me terribly often, as I work off-site, and so the last impression they have of me is how well my last project came out - which is fine with me!

By the way, Rick, I also think I get better as I program more. I have seen enough fads to recognize one when it appears, and I continue to be excited learning new things.

But that does not mean that the rest of the world automatically agrees. I think my manager at the last real full time employer I had (the .COM) was at least a little surprised to see someone my age walk in the door and perhaps even a little more surprised at how well things worked out.

That does not, however, remove the fact that I do know programmers my age who do not have any interest in learning new things, and if their platform of choice (be it the AS/400, or MVS, or whatever) falls out of favor, they will be lost.

I agree with the "hogwash" sentiments. I am 54 and still coding. I do not consider my self to be "just a coder" or programmer. I have a niche in being able to provide working production solutions. A lot of the programmers here are half my age and half my capabilities, in my humble opinion of course :)
Age descrimination is a serious problem, I have been subject to it at MS, but there still seem to be some companies that value experience of "quickness of mind" or willingness to work rediculous (and can probably spell) hours.
I have been doing .NET for about 3 years and am still trying to find where I can belong or fit it for the next 10 years. I haven't taken to dieing my hair yet ...

Tom,

You have hair?<g>.

Yes, I certainly think it is just plain silly that someone at an older age cannot program, but it just keeps coming up. When I first heard it from a former programmer - now sales manager - years ago, I initially dismissed it out of hand, but it does keep cropping up...

As for the humility (or lack thereof) that is another thing we share<g>.

First of all, if you say "hogwash," you're too old to program.

Kidding! ;)

I mostly develop .Net Web applications, with some client/server apps mixed in, and that means that on the technical side I have to be an expert, or at least a near-expert, in:

- project architecture
- 3-5 programming languages (and that's just on the MS side of the fence--it doesn't include the Java world, although I've got a little Java experience too!)
- database design
- T-SQL (another language)
- database optimization and tuning (basically DBA skills)
- graphics applications
- networks
- systems administration (user accounts and permissions for both developers and software, deployment issues, etc.)

There's more, but you get the idea. That's just the technical side. Then on the management side, there's:

- project management
- client management
- interfacing with/managing other developers, systems engineers, management

There's more here, too, but this is plenty to chew on. How much learning, experience, and maturity does it take to reach proficiency in all these areas? A lot! We're really like apprentices learning how to become craftsmen, and it's unfortunate that we would lose people at their peak experience level, or even a few years thereafter.

Of course you know all this already, and I'm basically just "preaching to the choir," here.

I'm 31. I'm not sure that I want to still be programming at 40. At least I've always said that, but I suppose that could change, too. For you guys and gals who want to keep programming when you're 50, 60, or 70, why not? If you're learning what you need to and getting the job done, it shouldn't matter.

Good luck!

The brain chemistry angle is pure bull****. This is ageism, pure and simple. A programmer at 35, 40, or 50 years old is very experienced and thus costs most money. Especially when you consider someone at that age probably has a family and a sizable mortgage to pay for. Companies want to hire cheap, inexperienced programmers who will work long hard hours for no overtime pay.

Why do you think all these jobs are moving offshore?

I would rather work with a seasoned experienced programmer than work with some spewby newby out of college who writes everything in l33t.

You are never too old to program but like with everything else things change with age; interest, motivation, willingness to learn new languages, willingness to put up with all the new acronymns and buzzwords for things we identified years ago, etc.
When I was young I thought there was more to life than working. When I became married with children I forgot about the great spirituality. Now, at 48, I really can't stand to look at computers anymore and piss away my life with stupid things such as Windows operating systems.

Ouch! I hope whatever you are doing is making you happy!