Eric Maino

System.Brain.CoreDump();
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Comments

Jeff Julian said:

Congrats on becoming a Student Ambassador. I am with the INETA Academic committee, so we will probably be in contact soon.
# September 18, 2003 3:20 PM

Anthony Shaw said:

You are a definately a complete nerd... what's your license plate again? L1NUX?? I think that's right! Anyways.. congrats my man!
# September 18, 2003 5:36 PM

SBC said:

Take a look at the 'Patterns & Practices' at the MSDN website. Particularly, the application blocks (there are several) -
http://www.microsoft.com/resources/practices/Audiences.asp#dev
# September 19, 2003 9:49 PM

Chris Stewart said:

I'm curious to know what it's actually going to do as its primary function. But building a component driven program is a good idea for learning. Should be fun. ;)
# September 19, 2003 9:59 PM

Chris Stewart said:

Wow, you've got an awesome professor to allow you to do that. Unless the professor was really into .NET, we'd never be allowed to do that. Out program is centered around Java.
# September 19, 2003 10:00 PM

Roy Osherove said:

Take a look at my "plugins" article, it talks about something of the same nature:
http://msdnaa.net/Resources/display.aspx?ResID=2197
# September 20, 2003 3:44 AM

Richard Tallent said:

It's more painful, but you could also use J#, so your code becomes a comparison of VMs and frameworks rather than the core language itself.
# September 20, 2003 6:14 PM

Nicko said:

You should really use a High Resolution Performance Timer rather than DateTime.Now.

See:
http://codeproject.com/vb/net/vbnetstopwatch.asp
http://www.codeproject.com/useritems/highperformancetimercshar.asp

for sample code
# September 21, 2003 9:40 AM

Scott Watermasysk said:

I am a big fan of the Mentalis StopWatch class:

The .NET framework provides several ways to measure time intervals; you can use the DateTime.Now property or the Environment.TickCount property. However, these methods are not very precise. In fact, the Environment.TickCount can have a worst case resolution of 500 milliseconds. If you need to measure short time intervals, these methods may not be good options.[http://www.mentalis.org/soft/class.qpx?id=8]

# September 21, 2003 10:34 AM

denny said:

you may also want to take alook at the code profiling stuff at msdn ...
there is an episode of msdn tv that talks about it and has links from that video --
linked to the papers is a download of a CLR profiler with full source.
# September 21, 2003 10:55 AM

Ian Cooper said:

Talk to the guys and girls at MSDN. They send us a quarterly user's group kit which contains this sort of material, and I expect if that does not have what you want they can dig you out something else. They ARE very helpful.

# September 22, 2003 5:38 AM

Chris Stewart said:

This is quite common I'm afraid. I work in my major department at school as a NetTech. Our students are quite lucky as they get all sorts of software on the lab machines, but I know many of the professors are die hard fans of one technology or another. I mention I'm doing a cool project in .NET, and some of them act like it's worthless. Although I just automated our account creation process for Active Directory. It will only save all future NetTechs an hour a day (there are about 6 steps to take for every account). It takes about 5 mins now. The best part is it took me about 10 hours to write the code (I'm about to refactor everything now since I have a working prototype).
# September 25, 2003 12:33 AM

SBC said:

yup... it's true - the 'real world' politics (opinions) are very difficult to understand at times. I have encountered situation where I came to the conclusion - 'You can't get little pregnant with .NET!
# September 25, 2003 7:53 AM

Jerry Dennany said:

Are you certain that it's politics and not money? Schools don't have infinite resources, and maintaining an alternate OS can be pricey in terms of maintenance and licensing. (aha, I can't believe that I just referred to XP as an 'alternate OS')
# September 25, 2003 12:25 PM

Alex said:

You should show your closer friends those goods first :)
# September 26, 2003 1:39 AM

Roy Osherove said:

Dude! write what you got!
# September 26, 2003 4:48 AM

Anthony Shaw said:

I'm also a student at GVSU, who also worked in the IT department and I know firsthand that it's not an issue of money. They have so many licenses for Windows XP that they don't know what to do with all of them. The CS department has some very tight fisted political people on the board and such, and they don't want to stir up any trouble with their contributers :-/
# September 26, 2003 3:49 PM

Eric Lathrop said:

From my perspective:

CS People don't want Microsoft in their labs because they like working with software that they can hack if they need to. Most unix systems have the GNU toolchain installed. If you find a bug in the compiler you can patch it. You can't do that with Microsoft right now.

Also alot of instructional software is built to run on unix. The NachOS instructional operating system the was use in my operating systems class only runs on unix.

Finally, CS people usually like OSes that come with a compiler.;)
# September 26, 2003 9:50 PM

Brian Desmond said:

TreeNodeCollection is actually a collection of nodes on the Treeview control.
# September 29, 2003 9:56 PM

Eric Maino said:

I know that the TreeNodeCollection is a collection of nodes used in the TreeView class, but I am just curious as to why it wasn't put inside of the System.Collections namespace as it is a collection and could have many other uses, then just for the TreeView.
# September 29, 2003 10:07 PM

Chris Stewart said:

I'm curious to know what you got as well. I actually work in my major department. The tutor just became our MS ambassador. He's on a power trip thinking he's going to be writing code or something for them.
# September 29, 2003 10:19 PM

Scott Gowell said:

Try to get a hold of some of the CS professors at either Northern Michigan University (www.nmu.edu || euclid.nmu.edu), or Michigan Tech University (www.mtu.edu). They hold programming competitions every year and have for a number of years.
# October 7, 2003 7:43 AM

Eric Lathrop said:

Instead of a custom IM thingy, you could just do what the ACM does: use disks.
# October 8, 2003 8:19 PM

Jeff Julian said:

Congrats! I hope it goes well.
# October 10, 2003 10:01 AM

Steve said:

You actually read all their marketing fluff ;-). I agree its not really an accurate description...and I'm sure you could find many other examples of misleading wording on that site(as well as other MS sites). One thing witch I think MS has done poorly is in regards to the marketing for .NET. They've put all the buzzwords in the material, and slapped the .NET brand on everything which has led to a lot of confusion for a lot of "non-techie" people I've talked to. Hopefully, MS has learned from their mistakes and will do better next time around.
# October 14, 2003 1:57 PM

Julien CHEYSSIAL said:

I agree with you. I've been "fighting" a lot of customers way too long, trying to make them understand that XML is absolutely not a programming language ! Damn you customer ! XML is a simple and standard data storage file format, which allows to organize/structurize and give semantic to its data. An XML file is simply and just a text file ! That's it !

This is typically the kind of things MS should avoid... They're not doing any favor to anybody... Customers won't understand what's XML and IT Consultants, Teachers will have to struggle with them... This is surely a "Marking" guy who said that !
# October 14, 2003 2:00 PM

Julien CHEYSSIAL said:

By "Marking" I meant "Marketing" :) And I made many other faults, like "fighting WITH customers", "give semantic to THIS data".
# October 14, 2003 2:03 PM

Jerry Dennany said:

Hmm.. Do you really expect more from marketing junk? You aren't the target audience for this article - It's reserved for people who's eyes will glaze over if you tried to explain the technical details.
I actually appreciate this marketing fluff, because I can either direct PHB's to the material directly, or adapt it as needed.
It means a lot less work trying to sell technical solutions to those that _don't_ understand.
# October 14, 2003 2:12 PM

Eric Maino said:

Yes, I do tend to read and try and keep up on thier marketing material and everything else. As a student ambassasdor I am bombared with all sorts of questions from students and faculty and I try my best to be sure that I can adequately answer their questions when I am asked.
# October 14, 2003 2:13 PM

Randy H. said:

Semantics.
# October 14, 2003 2:52 PM

Shannon J Hager said:

I almost sent a CEO the link to that page 6 months or so ago, but then I read the first few sentences, scanned the rest, and realized it was going to be part of the problem, not part of the solution.
# October 14, 2003 7:54 PM

Vazz said:

Sure is...
# November 12, 2003 4:51 PM

Josh Holmes said:

Instead of a custom IM - maybe the solution is to "Blog" everything. Each of the teams would have their own secure blog so that the judges can see the posts, respond to them in comments and so on but none of the other students can see it. There are a couple of advantages to this. First, there would be a record of all of the communications so that there could be no dispute about the judges giving too much help and so on. Second, there are a lot of implementations freely available. For example, there is BlogX and dasBlog on GotDotNet.com. Maybe you could get SharpReader and modify it to have an extremely quick refresh time on eachside so that the communications would be almost instant.

Just some thoughts...
# January 24, 2004 2:57 PM

Josh Holmes said:

Some thoughts on this. Martin Shoemaker (http://www.TabletUML.com) lives about 30 minutes from GVSU and would probably love to help create the materials or at least give an outside opinion on what should be taught.

Since he is an instructor by profession, it would be a natural fit.
# January 24, 2004 2:59 PM

Kirk Allen Evans said:

Blasphemy. XML has and will continue to change the face of computing.
# January 26, 2004 6:43 PM

Eric Maino said:

I no way has anyone said XML hasn't change and won't continue to change the face of computing. The only point emphasized is that web services and other components are not written in XML. Yes they may use XML, render XML, consume XML, etc... but they are not written in XML.
# January 26, 2004 8:41 PM

Julie Lerman said:

Eric-
Are you familiar with nonprofitways? They have a whole infrstructure set up (by other .net user gruops) to manage what you are doing.
# January 27, 2004 10:25 AM

Eric Maino said:

Julie-

We are familar with Non-profit Ways this is really what has sparked the interest in Michigan. What we are focusing on right now is the collection of data about local interested individuals. Once this has been accomplished a better vision and direction can be determined.
# January 27, 2004 1:00 PM

Andy Lerch said:

I am very interested in java. It is almost as fun as pooping.
# February 20, 2004 11:59 AM

Pavel Lebedinsky said:

Well the password *has* to be available in clear text somewhere, otherwise IIS will not be able to log on this user. And if IIS can get the clear text password, then anybody with enough privileges can do it as well. There's nothing that can be done about it.

If it makes you feel better, the situation is exactly the same with NT services or COM+ applications that are configured to run under a user-defined account. There are tools (like lsadump) to dump clear text passwords for them as well. Of course, they require administrator access.

If you don't want to store the password, use a built-in account (NetworkService, LocalService or System).
# February 21, 2004 2:12 AM

Eric Maino said:

I understand that there needs to be a way for IIS to log on as that user, but one might think there could be a better way of doing it. I guess I would just much rather see the password stored encrypted and authentication done via a key that is generated with the username and encrypted password.

Also the NetworkServer, LocalService, and System all have passwords as well or they wouldn't be able to login. If you look at any of these users you can get their password as well :-(.
# February 21, 2004 9:42 AM

Eric Lathrop said:

"Well the password *has* to be available in clear text somewhere, otherwise IIS will not be able to log on this user."

Ahahahahahahahahaha! That's the funniest thing I've ever heard. You should _never_ store clear text passwords. You encrypt them before storing, and then when the user enters his password you encrpyt it and come part to the encrypted version. Then no one can see his password.

This is how most programs that aren't retarted do it.

# February 21, 2004 12:28 PM

Pavel Lebedinsky said:

Eric M: It's true that System, LocalService and NetworkService have passwords as well. But these passwords are not be stored in the IIS metabase, so if you don't like the way IIS handles passwords it's definitely an option you should consider.

Another advantage of using NetworkService vs. a domain user is that you don't have to worry about password expiration/synchronization.

Eric L: IIS needs to be able to create a logon session for the user. To do this it needs to call an API like LogonUser which requires clear text credentials.

So even if IIS stores the passwords encrypted/obfuscated (I think it does, actually) at some point it *has* to decrypt them and get a clear text version to be able to call LogonUser. And if IIS can do that then you could write a tool to do that as well. This is why exposing clear text passwords through methods like WAMUserPass is not a vulnerability. If there was no documented API for this, you could easily reverse engineer what IIS does and write your own password extractor.

It looks like both of you are thinking about something like storing a hash of the password. This wouldn't work because there's nobody to type the actual password when IIS starts.

Think about it this way: to logon a user, you need to know the user's "secret", whatever that is. If you know it, you can become this user.

When the user logs on interactively, he types his password, and the domain controller (or local LSA) compares it with the stored hash. DC doesn't need to store the secret, only the hash of it - because the actual secret is stored in the user's head.

This doesn't work for services, COM+, IIS etc because they can't ask somebody to come and type in the password. They *have* to store the secret on the local machine, and even if it's encrypted, they *have* to be able to extract it in clear text form.

This is *not* retarded. The programs that only store the hash of the password can only prove to *themselves* that the password is correct. But they will not be able to access any resources (like a database) on behalf of the user. If you need to do that, you must have the user's secret.
# February 21, 2004 4:12 PM

Eric Maino said:

I do agree that they best and most secure way to run IIS is to use System, Local Service, or the Network Service user.

I do not agree that if the password was stored as a hash that user could still not be authenticated. The authentication process could be re-written to authenticate based on a key which could be the encryption or hash of the username and hashed password. In this case only the hashed password would be stored and many would feel much better :-).
# February 21, 2004 5:57 PM

Pavel Lebedinsky said:

If the hashed password was enough to authenticate to any service, remote or local, then it would be just as sensitive as the password itself. Why would an attacker want a clear text password when he can dig into IIS metabase and extract a hash that allows him to do anything the user can do?

This is why in my previous post I used the term "secret" rather than "password". It doesn't matter what that secret is as long as you can use it to log on as the user.

I also wanted to mention an alternative to storing the password or running as a built in service account that's available in W2K3. It's called constrained delegation and it basically allows a domain admin to configure things such that a service (like IIS) can obtain kerberos tickets for another service (like a backend SQL database) on behalf of a domain user. This way IIS can avoid storing the password and still talk to SQL using a specific domain account rather than NetworkService or LocalSystem.
# February 21, 2004 10:08 PM

Eric Maino said:

Pavel I do understand where you stand on the "secret" issue, though I think there is still a better alternative.

The biggest reason I don't want the password stored in clear text is not for "security" reasons but for reasons of the wandering eye. I personally don't like to know other's passwords and I don't like others to know mine. In this case any intersted admin can just dump all of the passwords in the metabase and I just don't feel that should be allowed.

Ideally I would like to see authentication work in this way:
1. User enters username and password.
2. Password is hashed based on an algorithm based on time so you will never get the same hash for the same password in a relatively close period of time.
3. This hashed password would then be encrypted or hashed with the username to generate a key.
4. This key would then be stored in the metabase or somewhere else accessible by the application.
5. Then for authentication the hashed password would then be encrypted or hashed with the username and compared to the stored key. If these match authentication would be granted.

This is just a rough idea of how I would like to see security work, and I know it's still vulnerable but the *secret* is no longer stored in clear text. Also if each application ran their own hashing algorithm then this would alleviate some issues, though could introduce others.
# February 22, 2004 3:06 PM

Jerry Pisk said:

I think both Erics do not realize that that password is not to authenticate users but rather a password IIS has to use to authenticate itself (Eric L is probably one of those retards he's talking about since he would force you to enter a password every time you start IIS). IIS is the user who's entering the password. If you necrypt it IIS will still have to be able to decrypt it so all the attacker would have to do is to get the key used to encrypt the password. It will not be anymore secure.

But if you setup your permissions right the threat is not that big. IIS' user account will only be allowed to log in as a service, not locally, not remotely and it will not be able to access the computer over the network (so you won't be able to use it to read NetBIOS shares).
# February 22, 2004 5:00 PM

Pavel Lebedinsky said:

So you're problem is actually not with IIS but with protocols like NTLM and Kerberos. As I said before, IIS has to supply clear text credentials to LogonUser because that's how existing authentication providers work. And I think that's how it should work. Today, if I see in my audit logs that somebody connected to my SQL server as UserA then I know that whoever did it probably knows UserA's password.

I think it would actually decrease security if you could use a password OR a hash because you would now have to worry about protecting both. And it might not be obvious to everyone that the hash is just as sensitive as the password, so people would be more likely to leave hashes unprotected in registry, config files etc.

The alternative approach that you describe wouldn't quite work, but some pieces of it (like salting the hashes) do have equivalents in the real world :)

If the hash allows you to do every single thing that you could do if you knew the password (including authentication to remote machines, accessing user's private keys etc), then I still don't see how it's better to store the hash instead of the password.

Actually, you might have a point here - normal user passwords are typically not random, and if you look at one of them it might be easier to guess another one. But this argument doesn't apply to service account passwords which should be truly random, computer generated strings.
# February 22, 2004 5:01 PM

Eric Maino said:

Jerry: I do realized that the password IIS has is used in order to authenticate itself. It needs to do this in the case of the application pool to "ran as" the user specificed. I also understand the best practices in setting up IIS in the most secure fashion, but what I am trying to get at is not how to setup IIS in the best and most secure fashion, but an alternative way to store the passwords in the IIS metabase.

Pavel: I will agree that my problem isn't with the IIS directly, but most likely with NTLM and Kerberos.

I do agree that if you could use a password or hash to login that this would decrease security as well, but I think that alternative methods could be developed in order to limit the decrease in security.

As stated about the hash would not allow you to do everything as that user it would only allow you to authenticate through the specific program.

BOTTOM LINE: All I would like to see is that passwords stored in the IIS metabase are not stored in clear text. I could care less if they were stored with some very weak encryption algorithm, becuase even if it was very weak you would still have to make an attempt to decrypt the string in order to find the clear text password. Right now all I have to do is look at the metabase and there ya go.

I do think there could be inprovements on Kerberos and NTLM or at least another layer of authentication in windows before it gets to Kerberos or NTLM.

# February 22, 2004 5:40 PM

Pavel Lebedinsky said:

> As stated about the hash would not allow you to do everything as that user it would only allow you to authenticate through the specific program.

And how would you enforce this? If IIS can use the hash to authenticate as the user, and I have full access to the machine where IIS runs, then I can certainly write a program that will do the same.

Also, if having the hash does not give me the *exact* same rights as knowing the password, then this will break a lot of existing IIS apps. What if my app needs to use client certs to talk to another web service? Will your hash allow me to access the user's certificate store and private keys? What about EFS encrypted files?

> All I would like to see is that passwords stored in the IIS metabase are not stored in clear text.

I just checked my W2K3 box - the passwords are *not* stored in clear text, just as I expected. If you look into metabase.xml, the passwords seem to be encrypted, most likely with CryptProtectData() (of course, as we have seen, this is encryption *has* to be reversible).

There are a couple of reasons for protecting the passwords in this way. First, if you use non-random passwords for your app pools (bad practice) then there's the risk that someone could look over your shoulder while you edit the metabase and memorize them. Storing encrypted blobs mitigates this.

Second, if the metabase.xml file is stolen or accidentally copied to an unprotected location, it's impossible to extract the passowrds because they are encrypted with a key that's tied to the local machine.
# February 22, 2004 8:29 PM

Eric Maino said:

> As stated about the hash would not allow you to do everything as that user it would only allow you to authenticate through the specific program.

I meant that they hash would only grant that user access through that program. It would only be valid on that machine, for that user, through that application. I could elborate more but won't.

>All I would like to see is that passwords stored in the IIS metabase are not stored in clear text.

Somehow we got off track here. I know that the passwords are encrypted in the metabase.xml file, but if this file were to be read though ADSI the passwords are not encrypted and shown in clear text. I would be much happier if they just showed the same password that is shown in the metabase.xml. If this were the case then I would sufficiently happy.
# February 22, 2004 9:12 PM

Pavel Lebedinsky said:

>if this file were to be read though ADSI the passwords are not encrypted and shown in clear text. I would be much happier if they just showed the same password that is shown in the metabase.xml

I think I addressed all your points except this one.

If MS did what you suggest then somebody would reverse engineer what IIS does to decrypt the passwords and post a tool to bugtraq, claiming that "M$ still doesn't get it" and relies on security through obscurity.

And in my opinion, they would be right.

Hiding passwords like this makes life harder for administrators and other people who might have a legitimate reason to see the passwords. But it's just a small speed bump for a determined attacker.

In fact, no matter how hard you try to obfuscate the passwords, it would take less than a minute for somebody with admin access to get them in clear text form, even without understanding the obfuscation algorithm or using any special-built tools. Here's how I would do that (on W2K3/IIS6):

1. Use Image File Execution Options reg key to launch svchost under built-in debugger (ntsd.exe -server npipe:pipe=hack_iis)

2. iisreset

3. Connect to the svchost debug session (ntsd -remote npipe:server=%computername%,pipe=hack_iis)

4. Set a breakpoint on LogonUserExW that dumps the password (3rd parameter) and continues:

0:000> bp advapi32!LogonUserExW "du poi(esp+c);g"

5. Continue the process and watch it dump clear text passwords for all application pools.
# February 24, 2004 3:20 AM

par said:

hello
# April 5, 2004 7:42 AM

Avonelle Lovhaug said:

We have a small MCSD study group here in the Twin Cities. It is just a bunch a friends who get together to study for the tests. We have 7 participants, although it has really gotten down to 3 or 4 hard-core participants. So this may not work the same way for you, if you are able to get together a much larger crowd.

First, all have the same set of books we are reading. (I think they are the Microsoft Press set of books for the .NET MCSD.) We meet weekly for two hours, and assign a few chapters per week. Then, we get together and discuss the chapters, and questions we may have about the material. Sometimes we do the labs together, if that will help to draw out questions.

When we are done with a book, we start taking practice tests and sharing information with each other on the areas we are still trying to understand.

Problems we are having: the books we have aren't that complete. We got them on Bookpool for a deal, but there is a lot of material that isn't covered. The Transcenders continue to be an excellent gauge of how we will do on the actual tests. When we get to the practice tests, we read the sections in the MSDN documentation where we are having trouble.

Anyway, I hope that helps a little. Good luck.
# April 26, 2004 1:23 PM

Eric Engler said:

Tell us more about the high school .NET initiative! I have 2 sons in high school.

Thanks!
# June 3, 2004 10:32 PM

Eric Engler said:

Thanks for the info. I agree that there are 2 big obstacles:
1) Teacher training
2) Cost of procurring VS for schools

Even the $99 price of the Academic version is too costly for many schools, since they need multiple copies in order to teach a class.

I think Microsoft should donate VS to schools if they agree to use it in programming classes.

Having said this, I can't come up with an easy fix for #1. The programming teachers I've met at the high school level have very little formal education in computer science (they are normally math or science majors), and they structure their classes around the things they know (normally VB6, or sometimes Java).

This cuts to the bigger issue of the fact that .NET has a big learning curve. It's hard for people who aren't professional programmers to learn it. They just don't have the time to invest in learning it.

I wish their were a simplied IDE, and a good book that tries to teach a subset of the .NET Framework that could get people going in a minimum of time. It should be easier for people to build simple apps without learning lots of complicated classes, methods, properties, etc.

My son wrote a version of Life for a high school science fair using VB.NET. There wasn't a single teacher on staff who kew anything about .NET. I brought my laptop in to the fair so he could show people the program. I was expecting that some of the science teachers might ask me questions about .NET, and I was prepared to offer my own time to help them learn about it. Nobody asked any questions :-(
And this is at one of the biggest high schools in the Atlanta area.

Eric
# June 5, 2004 9:40 PM

Eric Maino said:

Eric

I do agree that those are two obstacles that do currently exist but are in the process of being resolved. I really can't disclose more details on this at the moment, but let me say that getting VS.NET into the high schools and to make it available to the students should not be much of a problem down the road.

As for the comment about the simplified IDE, is there anything specific that sticks out in your mind that would make the IDE easier to use or easier to learn? Please be sure you voice any concerns about the IDE so the product teams can attempt to incorporate these into the next versions.

I don't really agree with you that VB.NET has much more of a learning curve then VB6. One study I would love to see done is a comparison of new programmers to see what appears to be harder to learn as a first language. I will agree you can incorporate more complexities into VB.NET, but this doesn't mean the language really has a higher learning curve.
# June 5, 2004 9:56 PM

James Griffith said:

Hi Eric E.,

Have you heard of the MSDNAA High School membership? For $299 it provides VS to every student and teacher. Check out http://www.msdnaa.net/hsmember/ for more information.
# June 8, 2004 2:04 AM

Nancy Head said:

Can you elaborate for me your rationale for promoting .NET specifically, rather than programming concepts generally, for HS students?

My own feeling has been that CS learning does not (and should not) require a proprietary solution.

Nancy

# June 11, 2004 11:45 AM

Eric Maino said:

Nancy

The real objective of the user groups and programming contests are to promote programming concepts. It is just that the vehicle I have choosen to use and gain support for is .NET.

I agree that CS learning should not require a proprietary solution either and that is not my intention, nor my goal with all of this.
# June 11, 2004 12:16 PM

chouse said:

maino finally updates! slashdot offices in dexter! my backyard! :-D
# September 19, 2004 1:20 AM

Mark Mehelis said:

Glad to hear things went well in Redmond over the weekend.

Hopefully we will get the Sharepoint site rolling in the next few weeks.

Mark
# September 20, 2004 1:07 AM

Addy Santo said:

Sweet....
# October 20, 2004 12:44 AM

css said:

I'd be interested in seeing some of the other code you talked about too.
# October 20, 2004 3:49 AM

d said:

me too, i'm on the same journey :)
# October 20, 2004 5:34 AM

Geoff Appleby said:

Check this post: http://blogs.msdn.com/lucabol/archive/2004/08/31/223580.aspx where he goes into a pretty good discussion on it :)
# October 24, 2004 9:24 PM

Eric Maino said:

Thanks for the link. It was a good read
# October 24, 2004 10:51 PM

Szoke said:

I like it.
# October 25, 2004 6:30 AM

Daniel Moth said:

If you are into that subject check out danappleman’s commentary on it: http://www.danappleman.com/index.php?p=25
# October 31, 2004 2:37 PM

Chris McKenzie said:

umm, that's what total cost of ownership means. It's not just the cost of building the infrastructure, but of maintaining it.
# November 1, 2004 8:17 AM

Eric Maino said:

Yes, I clearly understand what TCO means and it's goign to be different in all of the situations I described based on the training, hiring and firing of the staff. I understand that the cost of buidling the infrastructure is mininmal in the overall TCO, but still the four instances will most likely vary greatly.
# November 1, 2004 9:43 AM

James Griffith said:

This is going to be an awesome year for Imagine Cup! I hope the US wins. :-)
# November 2, 2004 2:46 PM

Robert Hurlbut said:

You can check out what I, Peter Provost, Aaron Margosis, Don Kiely, Keith Brown, and many others have already mentioned regarding this issue (one start is my latest blog post: http://weblogs.asp.net/rhurlbut/archive/2004/11/02/251164.aspx that also points to all the other resources if you follow the links).

Specifically, to address the first issue, you would use something like Aaron's (http://weblogs.asp.net/aaron_margosis/) "MakeMeAdmin" cmd shell to temporarily put your user account into the Administrator group (only for that session).

Setting up for ASP.NET you have two options: 1. Open a cmd session as an Admin and fire up VS.NET 2003 for debugging, or 2. If on Win XP, edit machine_config to change the ASP.NET worker process user, or if on Win 2003, change the ASP.NET worker process for the application pool.

Beyond that, the biggest issue is to learn "RunAs" and other techniques to keep an "Admin" handy. When I talk about writing least privileged applications, I always show these techniques as I think its important -- if you tell developers to run and develop as non-admin, you also need to show them how its done, i.e. how to live the lifestyle.
# November 7, 2004 7:38 AM

<NO NAME> said:

So you're not even gonna share how you did it???
# November 12, 2004 10:56 PM

chouse said:

you are the man dude, welcome to the club :-D
# November 12, 2004 11:08 PM

Josh Blake said:

Congrats! Yes, tell us how you did it!
# November 13, 2004 10:44 AM

Andrew Flick said:

Congratulations Eric. As a true geek, I've read your blog on Saturday night.
# November 13, 2004 6:02 PM

James Griffith said:

Console.WriteLine("Congratulations Eric and Catie!");
# November 13, 2004 8:37 PM

Eric Maino said:

Expect to see the details about how I proposed later tonight.
# November 14, 2004 11:44 AM

Douglas Reilly said:

Congratulations!
# November 14, 2004 4:37 PM

Jeff Julian said:

Very Awesome!
# November 14, 2004 9:19 PM

TrackBack said:

# November 14, 2004 10:26 PM

Bill Gates said:

Congratulations. See, women love geeks too.
# November 15, 2004 8:42 AM

Ian Ceicys said:

Dude. You are the man! That's awesome. I wish I was that much of a hopeless romantic. Congrats!!!!!
# November 15, 2004 2:38 PM

Douglas Reilly said:

Such a geek<g>. Congratulations!
# November 16, 2004 1:49 PM

Jill said:

Awww....that's so sweet! I'm SO happy for you. Remember, you still owe me a 21st b-day celebration. Maybe I'll come up there for it............
# November 16, 2004 6:30 PM

Jill said:

Also, my friend's wedding is July 16th, so no problem.
# November 16, 2004 6:58 PM

Alex said:

Dude that is aweosme...in both senses!!
# November 17, 2004 10:35 AM

Damon said:

Nice job! So how does code resuse apply to this? *grin*
# November 17, 2004 6:40 PM

Fabrice said:

I noticed you did not made sigOther a singleton, but instead a parameter you can change...
What that in case the return value was false, or do you still plan to reuse this method with other Mate objects? Maybe you created a class library after all?
# November 19, 2004 6:22 AM

Matt Propst said:

So this Human Interaction API is marketable?

....sounds a bit out there to me. Go to bed, Eric.
# November 19, 2004 7:36 AM

Dave Burke said:

And upon getting that job where you can begin putting your skills to good use, you'll have sufficient personal satisfaction from the day coding that you'll be able get some sleep.
# November 19, 2004 8:17 AM

Dave Burke said:

D'oh! I wanted to put a smiley at the end of that. Didn't mean to sound so authoritative. :-)
# November 19, 2004 8:18 AM

Darren Neimke said:

Now... this may or may not be a good endorsement for that tool but, that's the tool I used recently when I needed to come up with a color scheme for my project distribution site:

http://www.projectdistributor.net/
# November 27, 2004 5:39 AM

Matt Propst said:

Wow! Just the thing i had been looking for!
# November 29, 2004 7:43 PM

Srinivas Ivaturi said:

Nice one to see in C#. I coame accross such things quite often but this makes more sense.

# December 7, 2004 1:31 AM

Kaisa M. Lindahl said:

Congratulations.
Best code I ever read!

Kaisa
# December 7, 2004 3:15 AM

Adi Oltean said:

public void Post(Person me, Blog blog)
{

BlogComment comment = blog.GetNewComment();

comment.Title = BlogComment.DefaultTitle;
comment.Name = me.Name;
comment.Url = me.MyBlog.Url;
comment.Text = "Absolutely cool!";

comment.Submit();

}

# December 7, 2004 3:21 AM

Anders Norås said:

public bool DecideWhetherToPropose() {
Magnoliophyta f=new Daisy();
int i=0;
while (f.HasMoreLeaves) {
f.Leaves.Pull();
i++;
}
return (i%2==0)?She.LovesMe:!She.LovesMe;
}

Get her a "I love my Geek" baby dolly tee-shirt from Think Geek: http://www.thinkgeek.com/tshirts/ladies/5981/

Congrats!
Anders
# December 7, 2004 8:06 AM

TrackBack said:

Aaron B. Hockley's DroppedPackets &raquo; A Marriage Proposal in C#
# December 7, 2004 8:29 AM

Dean said:

convo.Recieve("Hello, Mr. Maino you limo is here.");

should be YOUR limo!

I used to write this stuff in Pascal back in 1996

with women do begin sexings

Great fun!!
# December 7, 2004 9:20 AM

Dean said:

Winamp is a pig?!?!

you prefer resource, CPU and task bar hogs to minimisable, lean sleek aol software?!?!

H3030h3
i like WMP for movies, (esp over that rubbish Real player) but anyone playing mp3s in it over winamp is just plainly a fool!

no offence. But no one in their right mind uses wmp over winamp for mp3s!!
# December 7, 2004 9:23 AM

Brian said:

This is my favorite line:

me.PickUp(typeof(CD), "Monster Ballads Vol. 1");

Awesome.
# December 7, 2004 3:03 PM

Jota said:

damn...

doesnt compile here... whats your .net version?

nice code ;)
# December 7, 2004 6:14 PM

nice one said:

Nice Stuff
# December 8, 2004 1:21 AM

Anand said:

Nice Stuff.. Enjoy
# December 8, 2004 1:21 AM

simi said:

very funny....
# December 8, 2004 6:02 AM

daryllmc said:

Congrats my man! :)
# December 8, 2004 6:39 PM

rick said:

It might be more interesting if you index Feedster searches. Its results are in RSS, can be queried at will with no appkey, and indexed way more often.
# December 9, 2004 1:50 AM

Joel Martinez said:

Nice ... so what was the return value?
# December 9, 2004 11:36 AM

Eric Maino said:

It returned true!
# December 9, 2004 7:49 PM

TrackBack said:

Hian's Weblogs &raquo; Marriage Proposal in C# ??
# December 9, 2004 8:08 PM

Chua Wen Ching said:

Wow... that is unique. Congrats :)
# December 10, 2004 3:37 AM

Jens C said:

...you forgot the interesting part: the finally block??? ;-)

Congratulations!!! For both, your marriage and the code!
# December 10, 2004 5:23 AM

kamran khan said:

mail id :k4kami@msn.com

good Excelllent keeep it up child!
:p
# December 11, 2004 4:54 AM

TrackBack said:

# December 14, 2004 2:05 AM

Tiernan OToole said:

Either that or someone's server is returing the wrong date/time information...
# December 14, 2004 12:02 PM

Eric Maino said:

Tiernan

You are correct but if you search for something like Microsoft daterange:2453400-2453450 which is sometime next year it still returns results. I could understand if the sytem clock was off by a few minutes or maybe even a month, but I am sure that isn't the case based the the results returned.

The fact is that Google's date range doesn't work properly.
# December 14, 2004 12:15 PM

Sahil Malik said:

Slashdot = tent of anti Microsoft sisterhood eunuchs !!

'nuff said !!
# December 19, 2004 5:23 PM

chris (not the one from the article, the one from said:

dam dood, you've fallen in deep since your days of rockin' SAS code. you make a beautifully crafted rant, yet it has no backing. trying to tout Microsoft as a superior option because "someday" people will treat linux like microsoft is foolish. how can you compare an open, community driven code base to a closed proprietary system? as long as linux stays open source the days of companies "packaging spyware and malware with applications that Linux users need/want" won't come because the second somebody tried that the community would shut them down. i won't argue that we're heading to a market where linux (and all open source for that matter) solutions will come with some cost associated, because everybody needs (and deserves) to make a living. but i'd much rather buy a car and be able to change the oil myself then get one with the hood welded shut and a co-pilot who tells me when, where and how to drive it.

p.s. sahil, you shouldn't fear those who disagree with you. steel sharpens steel my friend. unless you're wielding a ruber chicken you have nothing to fear...
# December 21, 2004 1:09 AM

Eric Maino said:

I understand that I didn't back up all my comments and rants and usually would have, but due to the shortened ammount of time I didn't.

Yes while Linux stays open source you may see a lower ammount of spyware and malware packaged into products that people are running, but there will come a time when the software developers that have great products cave into the capitalist society therefore not releasing the necessary products under an Open Source liscense.

I was just peeved based upon the profesional article written that didn't have much backing... Plus I wasn't the original once comparing apples to a peach cobbler, for that you can thank the researches at Stanford.
# December 21, 2004 1:19 AM

TrackBack said:

# December 21, 2004 2:47 AM

daryllmc said:

The fact is that Chris didn't craft a good argument. He tossed out LOTS of data. But all of it to support the Linux story, not to write a balanced, compelling argument. I didn't finish reading it and think to myself, "wow, he made a lot of great points"...I finished thinking, "that's it?". I won't point out the factual inaccuracies and incomplete points--that's Chris's job as the author. IMO, he just comes across as an unintelligent, ranting Microsoft bigot.
# December 21, 2004 1:50 PM

chris (from stats, again) said:

ah, see that statement assumes that every developer thinks like an M$ developer and is prone to being a slave to capitalistic greed. this however is not the case. the very heart of the open source movement is to fight the greed of capitalism. or at least the bulk of it.

as for tossing out data i think the masters in redmont are every bit as guilty, so lets not be so quick to call shenanigans on others for crimes we ourselves are so guilty of commiting.
# December 21, 2004 9:49 PM

Eric Maino said:

Not everyone is a slave a capitalist greed, but everyone has to pay bills at some point in time and if those that are investing their entire life into the success of free software eventually they will snap. At this point in time the will either get out of the, well I would call it a business, but since you (Chris) don't think OSS people understand that I guess I will call it, torture.

Yes, as for tossing out data EVERYONE has been guilty of that, it appears to get a little better here and there, but I just wish I could one day see an equal comparison of technologies.
# December 21, 2004 9:57 PM

TrackBack said:

# December 27, 2004 11:30 AM

TrackBack said:

# December 27, 2004 11:30 AM

Robert Hurlbut said:

Congratulations, Eric!
# January 4, 2005 11:34 PM

James Griffith said:

Way to go Eric! Congratulations!
# January 5, 2005 1:32 AM

Drew Robbins said:

Cool, I look forward to seeing you.
# January 5, 2005 2:25 AM

daryllmc said:

you da man!
# January 5, 2005 11:34 AM

Dave Donaldson said:

Me too. Make sure to introduce yourself to us.
# January 5, 2005 1:09 PM

Mark Mehelis said:

Congrats man
# January 5, 2005 11:59 PM

Jill said:

Congrats, Eric! But you definitely don't get MVC, Most Valuable Cousin. In fact, you've already lost your first cousin status. You're on the verge of losing cousin status altogether!
# January 6, 2005 8:30 PM

James Geurts said:

I'm there...
# January 12, 2005 10:08 AM

ff said:

why do you publish your ph no in your signaure ?

expecting calls ?
# January 12, 2005 4:19 PM

Eric Maino said:

I publish it that way so that if someone ever needs to get ahold of my they can farily easily. I had thought about putting it somewhere else on my blogs, but just haven't yet. I don't answer every call that comes in and if the person doesn't leave a message I am assuming that it must not be that important.
# January 12, 2005 4:23 PM

TrackBack said:

# January 15, 2005 1:08 PM

TrackBack said:

# January 16, 2005 10:26 AM

Matt Propst said:

I'd take your word over NPR, but the combination of the two....ok i guess i believe it.
# January 31, 2005 2:48 PM

Eric Newton said:

schweet! that means my bonus is 10+3.1% this year, oh wait... i'm self employed

but i do have some msft stock ;-)
# February 2, 2005 12:21 AM

David Smith said:

Hilarious. =)
# February 2, 2005 11:41 AM

David Smith said:

Good luck!
# February 7, 2005 6:16 AM

David Smith said:

=) VERY cool. I'm glad you had fun. I look forward to reading about your experience soon.
# February 18, 2005 7:43 AM

Charles Chen said:

Dude, you realize that your *phone number* is on the front page of weblogs.asp.net?!?!
# February 18, 2005 8:33 AM

Henry Balanon said:

what groups did u interview with?
# February 18, 2005 10:00 AM

Gina Gazic said:

Hey Eric,
I chatted with you in the lab several times last semester. I'm in Florida now. It's pretty nice. :) Glad to hear you are doing well, and best wishes for the job.
# February 18, 2005 5:14 PM

daryllmc said:

Glad to hear that you survived the "marathon" interview. :)

Sorry that we couldn't connect. I'll catch the next time I slide through Michigan!
# February 18, 2005 6:23 PM

TrackBack said:

# February 20, 2005 3:37 AM

TrackBack said:

En gut der bliver interviewet af Microsoft. Rimelig sjov beretning.

I have finally gotten around to...
# February 20, 2005 5:03 AM

TrackBack said:

En gut der bliver interviewet af Microsoft. Rimelig sjov beretning.

I have finally gotten around to...
# February 20, 2005 5:03 AM

TrackBack said:

En gut der bliver interviewet af Microsoft. Rimelig sjov beretning.

I have finally gotten around to...
# February 20, 2005 5:03 AM

David Smith said:

Congratulations Eric. I'm glad you had a good time on your trip. I'm very happy to see that the Microsoft team may potentially have a great new member. I'm proud of you.


P.S.

You say: " This was a very fun question to answer and his comment was very accurate that I would never look at an elevator the same after it :-). "

What was his comment?
# February 20, 2005 5:34 AM

Frans Bouma said:

"I asked Jon at this time what his perception of me would have been, had I worn a Linux t-shirt rather then my C# shirt (I was honestly thinking about doing this. I even emailed Scoble asking what his thoughts were on wearing such a shirt). Jon responded that he would have noticed the shirt, but probably would not have thought much about it."
I couldn't believe my eyes when I read this. Not Jon's response but your thoughts about wearing a shirt to make a certain impression using the text on the shirt. What's of upmost importance is that the potential employee is him/herself. Only THEN the recruiter can have a chance of determining if that person is a good fit for the team or not.

So what you should have done is wear what YOU would like to wear because it is YOU, not because some recruiter will get a certain impression. Now you seem to be too much of a suck-up, pardon my french: do everything to please the employer. No employer will hire such a person, as it will weaken the team: if everyone always says "Ok boss, you say it, we do it", there is no control on the vision of the boss, no interaction what might be best.
# February 20, 2005 5:48 AM

Eric Maino said:

Frans

I am sorry to hear you think that way. Let me tell you that I do what I want to do and I am in no way a suck up. You could talk to some of my current co-workers if you are really intersted how I work. The shirt I wore was just a safer shirt that demonstrated my passion for technology. I did not know at the time who I would be interviewing with, it just happed to workout that I interviewed with the C# team.

The only reason I asked before attempting to push the line, is becuase I was not on the inside yet and don't *know* the culture. I could make estimates about the culture, but figured it was easier to just ask someone that understands it.
# February 20, 2005 8:54 AM

Eric Maino said:

The comment was that I would never look at an elevator the same and he was correct. Actually after going through the interview process I don't look at many things the same. I was thinking of all sorts of test scenarios on my drive home today :-)
# February 20, 2005 3:43 PM

Matt said:

Perhaps you need to try an organically grown windshield.
# February 20, 2005 6:42 PM

Hmmm said:

Some of those qns are really silly.

Example: gold bar. What do you do if he spends his gold? What skills does this problem test, other than (possibly) inclination to think in binary?

Example: Arranging colored objects. Anyone with high school combinatorics could figure this out in seconds. Anyone who hasn't really been exposed in their CS course or whatever will have to think (which is good). However, how is the interviewer meant to know which category the interviewee falls into? Purposeless.

Most are pretty good though, especially the more open technical qns.
# February 20, 2005 10:39 PM

Cale Corbett said:

I don't really have any experience with bad GM windshields, but the film orhoaze you describe is from what is called "outgassing." This is caused by fumes being released from the plastics in the dash and driver console. This can be counteracted by leaving your windows slightly cracked when you park the car for the night.

To get the existing residue off, you can use any non-ammonia based cleaner.
# February 20, 2005 10:45 PM

Eric Maino said:

Thanks for the tip. I think you may be talking about a film on the inside of the window, when the one I am actually talking about is on the outside.
# February 20, 2005 10:52 PM

Eric Maino said:

Correct that some of these problems can be answered in a few second, but really that's not what MS is looking for. The acutally ask you before every problem if you have heard it before. This is becuase they really want to see your thought process more then anything.
# February 20, 2005 11:00 PM

Andy said:

Uhh, quite the contrary, these questions are very useful at determining a large variety of applicant qualities.

To begin with, a seemingly pointless or out-of-the-box question is entirely what we at Microsoft are looking to use in many cases. A question that is deemed at the outset as useless or 'purposeless' to many, puts the candidate in a state of mental discomfort. This in turn is used to test the candidate's ability to respond to stressful or possibly uncomfortable situations that he or she will DEFINITELY encounter working for this company. Being able to think under pressure and within the constraints of the time allocated for a project (or in this case, an interview) is crucial to his or her success. That's one small point...

Assuming however that the applicant is good on his or her feet and doesn't stress to the breaking point over questions like these, there are still benefits that cannot be overlooked.

At Microsoft, everyone has responsibilities. Therefore, everyone is a manager in some sense or another. Whether coding, working HR, sales, evangelism, or testing, you absolutely need to be able to make decisions here. The corporate culture is NOT one that promotes babysitting or having someone stare over your back to ensure that you are making the proper choices all the time. Granted, there is a level of peer-review, however, in the end, you need to be able to make choices on your own.

What does this have to do with the questions? Quite simple.

We aren't looking at your combinatorics math skills or your optical nerves. In fact, as one who interviews plenty of candidates here, I can tell you that I honestly don't care about the mathematics you present in your answer. The point is that you justify your methodology in a manner that makes logistical sense while remaining within the constraints of the question asked. So in many cases, instead of working their butts off to come up with the right 'cuts' for the gold bar or the right arrangements for colored objects, applicants will come up with another way to solve the problem that is totally off the wall and entirely outside the realm of what would by most be considered 'normal' answers.

BAM! That's exactly what I'm looking for! Now that isn't to say that I want only answers that are so far-fetched that I end up with a mish-mosh of useless information at the end, however, I do look for uniqueness and this question allows me to probe for that.

If the candidate simply returns an 'n C s' combination calculator-style answer to colors question while returning to me a very static answer to the gold question, you really aren't that interesting and likely, you lack the spontaneity and depth of thought that I require for members of my team.

The point in the end is this: for a company that has our level of success, I wouldn't just discount what seem to you to be pointless questions. In fact, given your response to them, don't bother applying here. :) No offense, but it will save you time to simply look elsewhere.
# February 20, 2005 11:08 PM

Frans Bouma said:

Eric, just a FYI: you are aware of the fact your phone number is in the RSS feed ? In case you aren't aware of that...

About the questions: while I do see the point of having some tests to see if someone didn't fake his/her resume, I don't see the point of a very long interviewing process. Here in the netherlands we have a trial-period of 2 months (by law) which gives the employer and employee the right to break the contract and quit the agreement. What I wondered was: why doesn't MS hire a potential candidate who passes the IQ tests (which is what you're doing here, no-one can tell after answering these questions if someone can really program a good program other than that the person isn't REALLY stupid) for a week or so, and let the employee do a payed assignment. Then you can see what the employee is capable of and the employee can see what it's like to work there and perhaps decide otherwise.

This has the advantage that the employer doesn't have to fire someone and the employee doesn't have to relocate to redmond yet, because perhaps the employee doesn't like working at MS after spending a week there or doesn't like the job that much. (could be). After all, employee and employer agree on a contract and both should be happy about that contract.
# February 21, 2005 3:38 AM

sRPI said:

After reading through the questions, I was asked the last three questions when I interviewed (different wording). I'm surprised to see that the questions are repeated with changes in situation, numbers, etc...

The questions are a good evaluator of person's thinking and "tinkering" ability, especially the logic questions. All large and serious software companies ask brainteasers, coding questions, or logic puzzles to assess a candidate's strengths. Development jobs require the ability to think out of the box most of the time and that is where the ability to logically and creatively solve problems is critical!

I for one enjoy answering such questions even if they are silly. Silly questions usually yield creative solutions!
I happen to know what a perfect number is because I took an analysis course in school therefore as a CS major, one cannot make excuses about the lack of exposure to certain types of problems. We have to face the fact that these types of problems are the basis for designing quality code.

It is nice to see that you were asked general design questions along with the programming questions. I wasn't asked any general design questions during the interview process. However, I was asked the first two questions during the career fair at school.

Which groups did you interview with?

Good luck!

btw, I'm waiting for an e-mail from the recruiting team.
# February 21, 2005 3:52 AM

Kevin said:

Frans:
Speaking as someone who knows Eric, it would have been odd for him not to wear a t-shirt proclaiming one technology or another. I don't see the C# call as sucking up, but as an obviously reasonable bet when you don't understand yet the lay of the land. Outside of something demeaning or truly offensive, what you wear on a t-shirt to one of our interviews really won't make much of a difference anyway. But Eric didn't know that, and if you are actually interested in the job, it makes sense not to go out of your way to *potentially* peeve off your interviewers with your attire before they can even ask you a question.

I would have laughed at the Linux t-shirt, as I think most interviewers here would have, and then moved right on to questions.

Of course, I tend to interview marketing-types only, so coming in wearing a t-shirt and jeans for a marketing manager job isn't really the best way to start off your day. No ties needed, but us marketing folks tend to dress it up a touch. :)
# February 21, 2005 1:42 PM

SJB said:

well the string question has resulted in a few arguments around me. Is it actually solveable?

Think we are in real danger of setting fire to the building..
# February 21, 2005 6:13 PM

Paul said:

Hi Eric,

I was wondering do you intend at all to elaborate on some solutions to the questions you posted? It would be nice to compare answers with someone who got them correct to see how close or how far :) off I am.

Thanks!!

Congratulations on the offer.
# February 22, 2005 3:30 PM

Eric Maino said:

Paul

If you would contact me through the blog using the contact link so I have you email I would be more then happy to share with you the answers. I would even be willing to chat with you on the phone about them if you are interested.

Eric
# February 22, 2005 4:09 PM

Steve No Jobs said:

If you can NOT find a job outside Microsoft, try Microsoft.
# February 22, 2005 6:53 PM

Radu Grigore said:

Andy, math IS the art of efficient reasoning. So to me it seems that you are contradicting yourself when you say: we don't look at the math but at the thought process. Also, the problems are a bit too known to put the candidate in a mental discomfort state. (1) I've heard the 7 oz problem from a friend who read it on the Net, (2) the burning strings problem is pretty much a classic, (3) the Josephus permutation problem -- again, a classic, extensively discussed in Knuth's TAOCP and in Concrete mathematics, (4) the train collision problem was recently (cca. 1 year) discussed in the SIGACT "overview" journal (though it was about a sheep searching for her son :) ), (5) the word inversion problem -- a classic one from Dijkstra, available on the Net in one of his EWDs.

The 7 oz problem has an _ugly_ solution. It is designed to test out-of-the-box reasoning but what it really does is that it requires a solution on a sub-problem (the worker can give gold back) which, aside from being a sub-problem, also hurts common-sense: that worker probably wants to _use_ his payment. (NOTE: I consider the "sub-problem" objection much more important than the "common-sense" one).

The burning strings problem however is extremely cute and it is very interesting to see how someone who doesn't know it solves it.

Overall the questions seem quite nice. I even like that some of them are underspecified (you get to see if the candidate asks for clarifications). Let's take this one "Please write a function that will determine and return the duplicate strings given two lists of strings". Hmm.. what exactly is a "duplicate string"? One that appears in both lists? One that appear twice in the input? One that appears twice in a list? It is clear that the problem is interesting only for the first interpretation; nevertheless that is the most non-standard meaning of "duplicate" from the three I've enumerated. I also like this pb. because I haven't heard it before and has many levels of solution. One can propose a naive O(nm) solution or do a sort + binary search on one of the lists (the shorter one) to get O((m+n) lg n). But wait, we can try to do even better! Before we do that we may ask if we really need it. What is the typical size of the lists? Is at least one of them typically less than 100 elements? How often will this operation be used in the program? etc. In any case if we want do do better we can use a 16b hash on the strings, and then compare only strings with identical hash. Ignoring collisions this is O(m+n).

OK, that was brief :) A bit more details.
1. allocate two arrays of size 2^16, fill them with NULL
2. for list 1 and array 1, then for list 2 and array 2 do step 3
3. for each string in list add string to the linked list starting at array[hash[string]].
4. for i = 0 to 2^16 - 1 do (solve original problem for lists array1[i] and array2[i])

And this is just a 10min idea. I'm sure lots of improvements can be found.

The test/design problems are very interesting and IMO could entertain a discussion for at least one day.
# February 23, 2005 4:57 AM

TrackBack said:

I remember the tips they used to give you at high-school about interviewing for a job. Wear black trousers...
# February 23, 2005 5:46 AM

juan calcagno said:

would you be willing to share them with me as well? Thanks, and good luck with your decision
# February 23, 2005 2:57 PM

RobertK said:

Elevator:

I am curious what your response for that was. Since an elevator is basically a stack a la FORTH/RPN it needs a simple instruction set.....

do you remember your response?
# February 23, 2005 6:17 PM

Michael Swanson said:

Good responses, Eric. Working for a company is a two-way fit. Not only do you have to be right for the position and company, but they have to be the right fit for you. Simply reciting information that you learned the night before doesn't benefit anyone. First, you'll probably be figured out during a Microsoft interview (they're intense), and second, even if you were to get the job, how do you expect to be effective?
# February 23, 2005 7:19 PM

Eric Maino said:

RobertK - I don't remember my exact responses to the elevator question and while you may be correct in your assumption, you don't want to assume anything in these interviews. You really need to look at the whole picture and consider all options :-).
# February 23, 2005 8:42 PM

TrackBack said:

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# February 24, 2005 5:52 AM

TrackBack said:

Cool Post from Eric Maino about the Microsoft Interview he went to recently. Link: The Problems.
# February 24, 2005 9:01 AM

Endoscopy said:

Andy, interesting that not even fellow Microsofties agree with your style.

http://blogs.msdn.com/michkap/archive/2005/02/23/378975.aspx

Frankly, I prefer michkap's less confrontational and more productive approach, its more likely to achieve results.
# February 24, 2005 10:42 PM

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# February 25, 2005 9:44 PM

Jennifer Swanson said:

Good for you! The answer to the "most proud of" question is straigt forward. Depending on delivery... appears honest, but most importantly; confident.

Hope it works out well for you. I know that many MS managers worth their salt, crave confident but not stupid. If you can pull it off, you can be their best ally.... and that might make for a good team mate :)

Best Wishes!

Jennifer Swanson
# March 2, 2005 3:52 AM

Eu said:

The answer to the interviewer's question shows that you can hardly spell. Hopefully, your code doesn't suffer from similar basic problems.

"conceded" comes from concede which means to cede, to give up, to surrender.

The word you were looking for is "Conceited". What do they teach you kids these days?
# March 4, 2005 4:14 AM

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# March 5, 2005 12:49 PM

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Hey, cool - Valorie works for NSD too. Any ideas what school Catie's considering?
# March 5, 2005 6:04 PM

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# March 6, 2005 5:22 PM

daryllmc said:

right on man! :)
# March 7, 2005 11:57 AM

Rafael M. Munoz - C# MVP Lead said:

Here we go again, while MS continues to get class acts hired on, I as the C# MVP Lead looses yet another great MVP. So to Eric, good luck, farewell AND welcome aboard, see you soon.
# March 7, 2005 11:58 AM

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welcome aboard! :)
# March 7, 2005 12:26 PM

David K said:

Great decision.

Catie, change is tough. I won't deny that. But, you will find you will expand your ideas, learn things about people and places that you never thought existed, and gain a greater appreciation for the world. I love West Michigan. But, after growing up in the Midwest, my wife and I moved several times. After several moves, and living on the East coast for several years, while we loved it, we did feel a drive to move back to the Midwest. Wevare BOTH happy we made the moves. We learned so much more that we could have from text books, family and friends.

Further, it is good to "escape" from West Michigan. While it is a great place to live, its incredibly conservative, closed minded, living in the past mentality is something you need to break out of. I am very conservative myself, but I see many advantages to change that those who have never left the area cannot comprehend. (And, they do not WANT to see). Maybe in 5, 10, 15 years you will come back. Or maybe not. But, you will be much brighter from your experience.

Eric, you dog.
You know we are all going to miss you! You have been a great asset to this program. (I know there are MS people reading this, but that is not why I am writing this) Truthfully, they are gaining a GREAT employee! I mean that.

I suppose I do have one option for keeping you around...
"will be moving to the area shortly after I graduate"
hmmmmmmm
;-)

I wish you all the success in the world Keep in touch.
# March 7, 2005 12:42 PM

jake a said:

congrats and good to hear good things are going your way
# March 7, 2005 1:35 PM

Michael Swanson said:

Congratulations to both of you! As you know, my wife and I recently made a very similar move. It was a tough choice for us too, but we're very glad we made the decision that we did. Welcome to Microsoft, Eric!
# March 7, 2005 1:42 PM

Gabriel Esparza-Romero said:

Eric
Congratulations! Looking forward to having you here.
Gabriel
# March 7, 2005 8:34 PM

Dave said:

So.. uh... does this mean you won't be attending any more Day of .NET events? Who will we get to take the pics? :-)

But seriously, congratulations. That's pretty cool.
# March 7, 2005 9:28 PM

Eric Maino said:

Dave - Don't count me out of those events totally. While I won't be able to attend most of them, I would be more then happy to try and arrange a time when I come out to such an event and speak :-)
# March 7, 2005 10:32 PM

TrackBack said:

# March 8, 2005 12:37 AM

Steve said:

<blockquote> The one I enjoyed the most was the one where I had to write a single program for two trains in order to make them collide</blockquote>

For some reason, it doesn't surprise me that Microsoft would write software like this. But to do it on purpose?! :-)
# March 8, 2005 1:09 PM

Kartik Shridhar said:

Welcome aboard Eric. We are really looking forward to you joining the C# Team.
Kartik
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chouse said:

give me some recommendations for online C# starter material.. having conquered vb.net, i'm looking for fresh challenges.
# March 11, 2005 10:33 PM

Jean-Luc David said:

Congratulations Eric! Great meeting you at the Summit
# March 13, 2005 8:48 AM

ron said:

too bad the kid is kind of a jackass... he used to play for my local OHL team (the erie otters).
# March 22, 2005 3:09 PM

Dillon said:

He's been watching Jonathan Cheechoo :)

http://www.sjsharks.com/interactive/play_of_the_game/movies/sharks_highlights_042404_3.wmv
# March 22, 2005 6:05 PM

Joel Ross said:

I use a plug-in that allows posting to multiple .Text blogs at the same time. It's available here:

http://www.biasecurities.com/blogs/jim/archive/2004/01/06/271.aspx

I don't post through NewsGator, but all that it has to do is support IBlogExtension, which the one above does. It works great too!
# March 23, 2005 9:53 PM

daryllmc said:

dude, that would be cool.
# March 25, 2005 12:46 AM

Steve said:

Tough Decision? Tough decision for a new college grad accepting a job at Microsoft? What kind of maniacal egoism is that?

Should fit right in.
# April 6, 2005 10:36 AM

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Code Syntax Highlighting would be nice.
# April 7, 2005 9:17 AM

Rob Gibbens said:

Did you get around to releasing this? I've been looking for a good addin for CS.

gibbensr@hotmail.com
# April 8, 2005 4:04 PM

Eric Maino said:

I didn't get around to posting it yet... I had an uncle passaway since the post and have been out of town since. I will get it up this weekend.
# April 8, 2005 6:05 PM

TrackBack said:

^_^,Pretty Good!
# April 10, 2005 3:47 AM

TrackBack said:

^_^,Pretty Good!
# April 10, 2005 3:47 AM

TrackBack said:

^_^,Pretty Good!
# April 10, 2005 3:47 AM

TrackBack said:

^_^,Pretty Good!
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daryllmc said:

Welcome Eric! :)
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Eric from the MSDN Student Flash blog chronicles his recent interviews with Microsoft . By the way, he received an offer. Congrats, Eric! I have to say I loved his answer to, “What are you most proud of in your career so far?” gretchen...

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Eric from the MSDN Student Flash blog chronicles his recent interviews with Microsoft . By the way, he received an offer. Congrats, Eric! I have to say I loved his answer to, “What are you most proud of in your career so far?” gretchen...

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