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VS.NET 2005 will not have a multi-line search/replace feature :(

A couple of days ago I blogged about VS.NET lacking a multi-line search/replace feature. I filed it as a suggestion in the MSDN feedback center. And I did receive a response:

Resolved as Won't Fix by Microsoft on 7/12/2004 at 11:31 PM

We LOVE this suggestion. I remember the alpha chat that we had almost a year ago and remember you making the suggestion and loved it back then. As you've noticed, we have made huge progress on the Find UI since this alpha release. Unfortunately, this work didn't allow us enough time to add this suggestion. It ranks highly on our list of requests for the next version of VS and we hope to get it to you then. We're also planning a chat in the near future and hope that you can make it. Stay tuned to our team blog for details.

Thanks,
Sean Laberee
http://blogs.msdn.com/vseditor

Now, what disapoints me the most is that a year ago, they already knew this was a great feature to add, that a lot of the editors available have such a feature and it really helps development and that today VS.NET 2005 is almost a year away plus that it seems that two years apparently aren't enough to add a feature to search/replace multiple lines of text. It might be a little more complex than editorContents.Replace(from, to); but how hard can it possibly be?

A year ago I joined the Whidbey Alpha program because I thought it would give me some, maybe even a little, influence on the future version of VS.NET. Apparently not. What's the use of joining these kind of programs then? The thrill of being able to peek into the kitchen where Chef Microsoft bakes 'the next version' ? Why bother? Why invest time testing versions, supplying suggestions while all you are really able to do is looking? If you want feedback Microsoft, do something with it or tell the community to not provide feedback at all.

"We LOVE this suggestion.". So do we, Sean, for a heck of a long time already. However why on earth should we even bother with spending time on giving you suggestions? It is not as if I was late at the party giving you the suggestion, so it wasn't possible to add the feature. The whole search dialog was in development at that time, nothing was finalized.

"It ranks highly on our list of requests for the next version of VS and we hope to get it to you then.". Sean, perhaps you don't realize this, but for us, outside MS, the next version is VS.NET 2005, not VS.NET 2007

You know what I'd really love to see, Sean? Some honesty. I'd have loved the honesty from you and your team back then and now why you couldn't add a multi-line replace routine in a full year and one year before shipment. Saying that you love the feature, you already did a year ago and still have it high on your list is a little hard to match with the cold reality of having a tool without a multi-line search routine. Was the feature scrapped because of the fact that it might not be that useful? It's high on lists at the moment, so I don't think that's the reason.

(paragraph removed)

It might be me who thought it would be added, considering your reactions back then. Perhaps that's my perception of the matter, I don't know. It's just very frustrating, looking back at the whole process from participating in the alpha group and now the end result. But perhaps it's me and were my expectations simply irrealistic, however I don't think they are, not now, not back then.

But I give up for now. I hope others have more luck with their suggestions and bugreports, or should I rephrase that to "I hope others have any luck with their suggestions and bugreports"... it seems so.

Published Tuesday, July 13, 2004 1:33 PM by FransBouma

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Comments

# re: VS.NET 2005 will not have a multi-line search/replace feature :(@ Tuesday, July 13, 2004 7:57 AM

Frans,

Quit whining. Seriously. Just because they like a feature doesn't automatically mean that it's going to make a certain release, that doesn't mean that they are incompentent or worse dishonest as you imply.

That's a really really cheap shot, bordering on irresponsible considering you have absolutely *no* evidence of this. You are speculating on the reasons and motiviations here because you have your feelings hurt. You wanted to say, "Hey! that nifty multiline search/replace was *my* idea!!" Great. Good for you.

The bottom line is that they will incorporate some features, and others won't make it, and it's not because they are eevvvviiilll, it's because there is a finite amount of time to produce this product (yes even for Microsoft).

If you're so passionate, create a plug-in yourself. It's easy, remember?

Reality Check

# re: VS.NET 2005 will not have a multi-line search/replace feature :(@ Tuesday, July 13, 2004 8:16 AM

Hi anonymous on airband.net. Next time mention your real name.

All I want to know is WHY is it not in this release. Because they were so enthousiastic about it THEN, I expected it to be in the final, however it wasn't. Why?

I don't give a damn about who brought up the feature idea, why should I care? All I want is this small feature and I'm definitely not alone. I'm also not late, I was very early. It's also not a feature they didn't like, they liked it a lot (as others in the alpha btw).

I then want to know: WHY isn't it added? If it had ANY priority it would have been added. It's not. So I want to know: Is it cancelled because some person/group thought it wasn't necessary to add. I then have a handle to discuss why it IS important. "There wasn't enough time" is not true. There was plenty of time, a whole year to be exact till TODAY, and we even have a whole year to go.

It's not about my feelings, it's about an editor I have to use which won't have a simple feature which greatly helps development and there is no reason given WHY it doesn't.

yeah I can create a plugin, I can create a plugin for all things I want to do in an editor. Writing stuff yourself is not productive if you can buy it off the shelve.

I also know I can cram in a regexp in that tiny textbox and hope it will do what I want, but regexp can contain bugs and how to find these, in a simple search/replace box, mr. anonymous? Oh, right, I could write my own plugin, of course!

And being in an alpha program is fun! you can spend all those time suggesting things, having the feeling you can actually accomplish something. Well, you can't.

I'm not alone in this, mr. Anonymous.

Frans Bouma

# re: VS.NET 2005 will not have a multi-line search/replace feature :(@ Tuesday, July 13, 2004 8:25 AM


To get this far into a product lifespan and still not have this feature is a little bizarre given the other less useful options that it already contains.

Anon

# Creating an Atmosphere of Accountability@ Tuesday, July 13, 2004 8:30 AM

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# re: VS.NET 2005 will not have a multi-line search/replace feature :(@ Tuesday, July 13, 2004 8:43 AM

Sometimes features get cut, or aren't even considered for a certain release. Yes, it's sour that, being release 8, there's still no multiline search/replace. But Microsoft is a professional company and the people working on VS are passionate about their jobs and passionate about delivering a great developer experience; this is not some hobbyist group creating a shoddy peace of shit resembling an IDE.
Even implying something awkward went on in this feature not being implemented is silly. How many feature requests do you think the team gets for any releases? It'll be in the hundreds or maybe even thousands sooner than in the tens. No way all these features can be implemented. Not in 1 year, not in 2, not in 5. Features have to be cut. Choices have to be made. What do we implement, what do we leave for the next version?
So, it's too bad we're not getting this feature. But it's not the end of the world. I can't believe you were in the alpha program just for this feature. And I can't believe you won't participate in alpha programs anymore because of this experience. And I don't think you yourself can believe you will.

Final note: if there's so many people that really NEED this feature, writing your own plug-in is indeed easy. Get together and write it. Post the code in a GotDotNet workspace and Microsoft can immediately mine it for the next VS.

Wolfgang Al

# re: VS.NET 2005 will not have a multi-line search/replace feature :(@ Tuesday, July 13, 2004 8:58 AM

Wolfgang: normally I wouldn't expect a feature to be implemented at all. That's just realistic. However when you're on the alpha program, a thread is started with new screenshots of the search window, requests for feedback on that particular window, feedback is given (make it multi-line), which is acknowledged by more people, MS responds: "Oh we didn't think of that, indeed great suggestion", then what would YOU think, early 2003?

That it's highly unlikely the feature gets implemented? No. Especially when it's not a silly feature you probably will never use.

That's why I wrote about honesty towards teh community and to people who were close to the team in the alpha group: if you first are enthousiastic about something and you seem to add it, you can't come with an excuse later on with 'there wasn't enough time'. It's not E&C we're talking about, it's replacing 1 string of characters with another string of characters.

In fact, the code is already there, as a regexp guru can already search/replace over multiple lines so editor support for these kind of changes is already in place and tested. So why it is not added is, sorry, beyond me.

Then receiving these kind of responses from MS is really not motivating me to participate in another alpha group. (note: teh resizable windows suggestion was given to them a long time ago too)

Frans Bouma

# Creating an Atmosphere of Accountability@ Tuesday, July 13, 2004 9:33 AM

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# re: VS.NET 2005 will not have a multi-line search/replace feature :(@ Tuesday, July 13, 2004 9:40 AM

Frans you are being a baby.

Firstly, I don't know why you say 'Hi anonymous on airband.net. Next time mention your real name.' This is childish. The poster's name is irrelevant, and your childish 'aren't I clever, I reversed his IP' comments are not really very friendly.

Secondly Homesite is probably written by a single guy, and if someone says 'can you do X', then he will do it on the spot.

Things don't work like this in Microsoft. Things need testing on 100 different systems. In addition, you are acting like there is nothing else for these guys to do. This is not correct. They will have a list of features for the next version of the software. They will have prioritised these, and then tried to remove as many as possible that are not essential in order to SHIP THE SOFTWARE. This is just common sense.

This feature might be important to you, but don't act like Microsoft has nothing else to do, and had 2 years to build this. Yes they did have 2 years, but they probably decided 2 years ago that they weren't going to do it. Which other feature would you like cut instead? Do you think the PMs haven't thought about this?

And what scenarios are you using multiline find and replace?

matthew

# re: VS.NET 2005 will not have a multi-line search/replace feature :(@ Tuesday, July 13, 2004 10:01 AM

"Firstly, I don't know why you say 'Hi anonymous on airband.net. Next time mention your real name.' This is childish. The poster's name is irrelevant, and your childish 'aren't I clever, I reversed his IP' comments are not really very friendly."
Ranting as an anonymous person on my blog is IMHO rather childish, why not state your name?

Matthew: as I explained above already: it was to me very clear that the new search dialog they proposed would get multiline search facilities, there wasn't a single word from their side it shouldn't have one.

After a year it seems it doesn't have that multi-line feature and I wonder W H Y. Is that so freaking hard to understand? Apparently. Asking 'WHY' is apparently childish. I'm not asking why because what I wanted is not implemented, I want to know why a feature that everyone agreed on was a great thing to add, at a time where there was plenty of time and room left to add it, is simply dropped and as a reason there is given: "not enough time", while they LOVE the feature.

The search dialog was completely redone, why didn't they include a multi-line feature? Is that so hard to answer, or is it so childish to ask for that reason? ONLY If they have said earlier on already "no, we won't do this".

I've needed it on various occasions, like something is spanning 2 lines, or you want to replace sometext; plus the next line with sometext; plus another line.

Perhaps I'm being misunderstood as a crying fool, but all I want to know is: why is it dropped when they loved the feature a year ago, they still LOVE it today, it's high on lists for the next version...

Did they forget to implement it and it's now too late? (can happen, seriously: I can live with that). Did they think it wasn't that useful? (then why LOVE it still and having it high on lists for a next version?). It was impossible to implement? (while you can with a clever regexp do it already)?

It's the whole picture: being in the alpha program, having the illusion you can actually suggest something or debate some feature, getting the feeling that some feature is actually being added, then seeing it's not and reading the reply that the feature was/is still great and it's on lists, but there wasn't enough time.

I'm doing software development for a loooooong time now and I know what it means: "There wasn't enough time": the feature didn't have a priority high enough to get it added.

Again, I can live with that, seriously. But if that's the case, don't come with excuses that you LOVE the feature and it is high on lists for hte next version. To me that's a bit weird.

Frans Bouma

# re: VS.NET 2005 will not have a multi-line search/replace feature :(@ Tuesday, July 13, 2004 12:43 PM

Microsoft uses Betas and Alphas to get your feedback on their ideas. Not that your feedback really matters very much unless it is in line with their plans and ideas. Every single beta tester could say "that sucks" about a feature and be told "the decision was made before we told you about it". That happens often, as I am sure you know.
MS Beta testers are there to report bugs for the version being worked on and to offer suggestions for the version after the version being worked on (or the version after that, depending on whether the feature/bug is going to require a lot of work or not). Beta testers are "testers", not partners or contributors or anything other than bug hunters. Spot and report bugs that the developers missed, that's the tester's role.
Even at Alpha stage, all the features that will exist are probably already in place and featureset changes are limited to "removed this feature" only, for the most part. Features are removed in order to get the product out the door by RC1 stage (which MS calls "gold"), they don't want suggestions of more features, they have too many on their plate as it is by that time.
I don't really understand why you're acting surprised about this, Frans. Isn't this the way things have always worked with them?

Shannon J Hager

# re: VS.NET 2005 will not have a multi-line search/replace feature :(@ Tuesday, July 13, 2004 12:54 PM

"I don't really understand why you're acting surprised about this, Frans. Isn't this the way things have always worked with them? "
Well, if I had suggested the feature last week, and even during a beta-stage, I wouldn't have been surprised really, perhaps annoyed about the fact that they could have thought about it themselves.

This was very early, during the design of the feature itself, so perhaps my naivety got in my way, blinding my view on reality ;)

Frans Bouma

# re: Request From The Windows Guys@ Tuesday, July 13, 2004 1:46 PM

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# re: VS.NET 2005 will not have a multi-line search/replace feature :(@ Tuesday, July 13, 2004 3:01 PM

Hi Frans,

I just wanted to say, please keep on whining. It's critical that someone makes noise about real features that affect real developers. This is one of those things that people probably don't realize they can't live without. I used homesite for several years before giving it up to move to asp.net and the multiline search/replace is easily the feature that I miss most. There's so many cases it woulc have saved me tons of time.

Please keep bringing these issues to light because no one will listen to most of the rest of us that feel the same way :)

Michael Cook

# re: VS.NET 2005 will not have a multi-line search/replace feature :(@ Tuesday, July 13, 2004 8:26 PM

I believe Microsoft Access went at least six versions without a way to print the Relationships Window, despite numerous requests, discussions between alpha testers and Microsoft developers, professions of interest, and so on. Input from external testers is one small factor in the bigger picture; I think Microsoft's own vision of where a product is going next is weighted much more highly.

Mike Gunderloy

# re: VS.NET 2005 will not have a multi-line search/replace feature :(@ Tuesday, July 13, 2004 9:01 PM

Another "no brainer" feature (this time in the Windows shell) that's long overdue is being discussed at: http://weblogs.asp.net/OKloeten/archive/2004/07/13/181939.aspx

Frans isn't the only one who's "been ignored"! I'm hoping the new product feedback center helps, but have my concerns about how the "wish-lists" are maintained...

Steve Hall

# re: VS.NET 2005 will not have a multi-line search/replace feature :(@ Wednesday, July 14, 2004 12:08 AM

well, Frans, maybe "naive" is too strong... "overly optimistic", maybe. If we were talking about a great year-old suggestion for LLBLGen, I would be as surprised as you, unfortunately, change and movement at MS is glacial compared to smaller, more agile [ack, I don't want to use that word, but it fits] companies like yours.

Shannon J Hager

# re: VS.NET 2005 will not have a multi-line search/replace feature :(@ Wednesday, July 14, 2004 2:52 AM

"Input from external testers is one small factor in the bigger picture; I think Microsoft's own vision of where a product is going next is weighted much more highly."
I can see a point in this, however I can't match it with the weight they seem (!) to give to the MSDN feedback center now, as if they are very eager to hear our feedback and are very willing to add these things provided by feedback... However, it more and more looks like it's just hot air and business as usual.

Shannon: heh :) You're right. I like "overly optimistic" :)

Steve: thanks for the link, seems like a similar situation... I really don't understand why these kind of things are left out while stupid features a lot of people never use are added, like clippy is now re-added to VS.NET 2005.. I mean... yes, we all want THAT one to be part of vs.net 2005 and not things like resizable windows and multi-line search / replace!

Frans Bouma

# re: VS.NET 2005 will not have a multi-line search/replace feature :(@ Wednesday, July 14, 2004 3:26 AM

Surely you are joking about Clippy? I mean I saw the screenshot, but I am pretty sure it was mocked up in jest.

Michael Teper

# re: VS.NET 2005 will not have a multi-line search/replace feature :(@ Wednesday, July 14, 2004 3:35 AM

I *hope* it's a joke, myself I can't believe it on one side, however on the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised if they add a similar 'wizard'like feature to the express stuff.

Frans Bouma

# re: VS.NET 2005 will not have a multi-line search/replace feature :(@ Wednesday, July 14, 2004 3:38 AM

Ok, I saw the screenshot now. It looks really bogus (especially the statemachine prank :D) *pfew*

Frans Bouma

# re: VS.NET 2005 will not have a multi-line search/replace feature :(@ Wednesday, July 14, 2004 6:27 AM

I would just like the find / search facility to search inside region tags(Multiline would have been nice aswell).

I have had this problem so many times before that you search for seomething in a project and it does not find the word becuase it is inside a region.

If this is possible then please point me in the right direction.

I guess i can't complain to much about "VS.NET 2005 will not have a multi-line search/replace feature" seeing that i have not been participating on the MSDN groups, but i would like to say - To wait for the next version of VS to get this little feature is madness!!

But i guess it is part of the way M$ works..they never fixes something the first time - you always have to wait for a patch that may or maynot appear or buy a upgrade or even buy a new version in which the problem is supposedly solved, and after getting the new version you find that all they have done is changed the GUI to make better looking or they have broken something else.

This makes me think of the sinario where we are donkeys and M$ is riding us while holding a big juicy carrot infront of us, with the promise that we might get the carrot someday.

Wayne Barker

# re: VS.NET 2005 will not have a multi-line search/replace feature :(@ Wednesday, July 14, 2004 8:42 AM

It surely isn't that hard to understand where Microsoft are comming from. They have hundreds of potential enhancements for VS and have a priority for each one. Your suggestion will, no doubt, have been added to it but by the time it gets to alpha the two top priority features are stability and shipping. The priority cut-off point was before your feature.

Stuart Radcliffe

# re: VS.NET 2005 will not have a multi-line search/replace feature :(@ Wednesday, July 14, 2004 5:53 PM

Wayne, I don't know about vs.net 2005, but for 2003, check "Seach hidden text" in the find box, that should work for you.

In general, why does Microsoft actually except feedback? Have they ever implemented anything based on feedback? It seems like developers (and users) whine for years and years, and maybe Microsoft will accidentally implement something they asked for. So why have the pretense? It just leads to expectation and then disapointment.

Michael Cook

# VS.NET 2005 will not have a multi-line search/replace feature :(@ Saturday, July 17, 2004 6:32 PM

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# My Thoughts on the MSDN Feedback Center@ Wednesday, July 28, 2004 3:11 PM

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# My Thoughts on the MSDN Feedback Center@ Wednesday, July 28, 2004 3:12 PM

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