ISVs, Access, and VS 2005

Speaking of  ISVs and VS 2005...

One of my current areas of expertise and interest in migrating VB6 developers and projects to .NET.  Over the past 2 years  I have had the opportunity to have many formal and informal discussions and consulting engagements on this topic, including my VB Upgrade Tour through Europe.  More recently, I find myself having alot of conversations with ISVs on (finally) moving their applications to .NET.   More significantly, I find that alot of these ISVs have applications developed with Access (or something similar such as Magic or Powerbuilder).

These conversations generally go pretty well - until we start talking about what it takes to get a fully functional "bread and butter" data access & data entry form in VB (or C#).  That's when I start offering to buy them beers...  I have never developed applications with Access, but have definitely come to appreciate how easy it is to develop straight forward forms with Access.   And if that is really all your app needs, then it is a good solution for you.  Of course, I don't think that going forward, Access is really flexible enough to really meet all customer needs and also add real value - simple desktop (or even C/S) apps that just talk to a single data source are becoming less and less common.

Microsoft has really come a long way in closing the gap in functionality/productivity for building "standard" data-bound forms.  VS 2005 has become much more Access-like in terms of how you define your data sources, how you define and execute commands against those data sources, and offering a fast but flexible tool for autonmatically generating functional data forms that are also customizable if required.

In my opinion, the four most significant and compelling issues in this area are:

(1) The improved experience and productivity of designing/building data-centric WinForms
(2) The improvement in easily building forms that use automatic data binding and actually work correctly
(3) The integration of SQL Server Reports
(4) The improvements in the typed DataSet and the introduction of the TableAdapter

 Of course, it goes without saying (but I'll say it anyway), that I am talking about Access as an app builder.  In terms of the database itself, you need to be using SQL Server or  MSDE / SQL Express for any significant application.

Are you an ISV or Access developer who has already moved to .NET or is currently considering it ?  What are your thoughts and issues?  Have you checked out  VS 2005 yet ?

 

Published Tuesday, January 18, 2005 11:07 PM by Jackie Goldstein
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Comments

Tuesday, January 18, 2005 5:39 PM by TrackBack

# Four most compelling issues in VS 2005 around data access (by yag)

Tuesday, January 18, 2005 5:39 PM by TrackBack

# Four most compelling issues in VS 2005 around data access (by yag)

Wednesday, January 19, 2005 12:30 AM by Alex Kazovic

# re: ISVs, Access, and VS 2005

I have recently looked at moving a few apps that have Access as the front end (SQL Server 2000 back end) over to .Net. These apps work fine as is, and my motivation was to ease maintenance by moving as much as possible to the same platform (.Net), but only if the cost was small.

My first comment is that is is generlly too much effort to move an app if it does stand alone reporting. The reporting engine in Accrss is very good (I wish it was ported to .Net). You mention SQL Server Reports; I've only briefly looked at them and they don't seem as easy as Accrss reports.

My second comment is regarding ADO.NET. Some of the application are being used by a small number of simultaneous users i.e. they don't need to be scaleable. ADO.NET relies on a disconnected data model which is the way to go if you need scaleability. But for these apps I would prefer a connected model (e.g. the ability for one user to make a change to data and have this reflected to other users. This comes free with Access.) I know that writing code to do this in .Net is not difficult, but it takes a certain amount of time.

So in summary, I haven't upgraded quite a few of the apps because of these two reasons. Yes, it is possible to replicate these two features in .Net, but it's too much effort.
Wednesday, January 19, 2005 1:52 AM by TrackBack

# Changes from Beta1 to Beta2 in VS 2005 Data Design-Time Features

Wednesday, January 19, 2005 2:02 AM by Alex Kazovic

# re: ISVs, Access, and VS 2005

A couple of things I forgot to mention un my previous post. Firstly, continuous forms vs Datagrid. The first Datagrid was not very good (how many times did I see in forums people asking how to have a combo column in a Datagrid?). The DataGridView in VS 2005 seems a lot better. But there is still one thing I can’t quite put my finger on; it still seems a lot easier at design time to design a continuous form rather than a DataGridView. E.g. to add an unbound combo box to a continuous form at design time you just drag a combo box from the toolbox on to the form, to change the background colour of the combo box, just select it and change the colour; it just seems there are less steps and it’s easier.

Secondly, Access has a bound OLE control. I find this useful to store Word documents in a DB (I know there are people who say you shouldn’t store them in a DB, but it gives me an easy was to use full text search). When VS 2005 was announced there was the ActiveDocumentHost. Even though it was not a bound control, it was a step forward. But now it has been cut from VS 2005 because it was too difficult to implement. This gives the impression that it is so difficult to interop between .Net and Office products that even MS can’t do it!
Wednesday, January 19, 2005 8:23 AM by Jackie Goldstein

# re: ISVs, Access, and VS 2005

Alex,

It sounds like you are making the right choices - using SQL Server and migrating (only) when it makes sense.

Reporting - there is no doubt the that Access report designer is great and is always the tool to beat. Wait until the next Beta of SQL RS 2005 is out and take a look at it again.

Connected ADO.NET - I hear what you are saying. You are right that it is not there, but that it is not really a big deal to write to code to force updates immediately when you need it. The DataSet offers other programmatic features that, for me at least, make the tradeoff well worth while. I have passed on the request for a connected model more than once to the dev teams in the past few years.
Wednesday, January 19, 2005 8:24 AM by Jackie Goldstein

# re: ISVs, Access, and VS 2005

Alex,

As to your feature requests in your second post, I'll leave that for the MS guys to address - I know they are watching these comments. Thanks.
Wednesday, January 19, 2005 11:52 AM by Denny

# re: ISVs, Access, and VS 2005

Hey right in my path....


I use .Net and VS 2003 and Access 2000 and SQL 2000

I am looking at 2005 with much hope.

I'd *LOVE* to work with Microsoft on some of the problems with the Access Vs. .Net stuff.

some issues I have been working thru:

Mega Corp has paid for Access 2000 on over 4,000 desktops.
do not want to give users install rights
do not want to roll out .net to the whole company.
do want changes that will not fit in access.

having to work that is a pain...


then there is the other part:

I and a few folks I work with can crank out a good access database, forms and reports with almost zero code and very fast time.
and for the "Mega corp" from above that fits the deplyment perfect.

SQL server and SQL reports: OVER KILL
the apps are not for all 4,000 Plus users.
often they are for a small work group of 3-10 users.

we can't run a server w/o a big hassle with the IT SHop.
we can use the Access data files but then folks get worryied about the backups and data corruption.

SO I am thinking that the 2005 sql "Express" with a version of SQL reports that runs to the express db + .Net 2.0 forms might be a good fit.
if we can get that packaged so that it can deploy "Like an access database" with some local station acting as a server for the reports and the data we might be able to pilot one or two and then get IT to trade up to a full sql server.

they have Oracle apps now so there is some culture issues to deal with also.

Wednesday, January 19, 2005 11:54 AM by Alex Kazovic

# re: ISVs, Access, and VS 2005

Jackie,

Do you know if the next Beta of SQL RS 2005 will work with SQL Server Express? Whilst, I’m using the full version of SQL Server, I’m sure there are a lot of people using MSDE or Jet that are thinking of using SQL Server Express, but would like a good reporting deigner.
Friday, January 21, 2005 7:19 AM by TrackBack

# SQL Reporting Services in VS2005 (by yag)

Friday, January 21, 2005 2:20 PM by yag

# re: ISVs, Access, and VS 2005

Alex,

Check out my response at: http://blogs.msdn.com/vsdata/archive/2005/01/21/358304.aspx

yag
Tuesday, March 01, 2005 8:22 PM by TrackBack

# New DataSet Features in Visual Studio 2005