Silverlight vs. Flash: The Developer Story

Published 03 May 07 06:03 PM | Jesse Ezell
A few people didn’t like my proclaimation that Flash is dead. This is understandable. It is a bit premature to make such claims, but the Silverlight model is pretty amazing. As someone who works with Flash on an ongoing basis, I thought I'd chime in with a more in depth look at the issues.

First off, let me explain my background for those of you who may not know. Way back in the day, when Flash 4 was the latest and greatest, Macromedia decided to “open up” the Flash file format. They released documentation (which was poor at best) and an SDK (which was horrible at best). I saw the potential here. Finally, the format third party developers could unleash their creativity and usher in all kinds of amazing tools. Unfortunately, the documentation was full of errors and the SDK was so riddled with bugs that you spent more time debugging it than using it. 

Nevertheless, debug I did. I came up with quite a list of fixes to the SDK, fixes which would render it near complete and bug free. I signed up for a free hosting account and promptly placed a list of the updates you had to make to the SDK in order for it to be bug free online. Macromedia’s response: cease and decist. Rather than integrating the changes themselves or acknowledging that they solved a serious problem, they told me that it was a violation of the license agreement to be posting that kind of information…. Some definition of “open” they have there. 

Not to be dismayed, I determined that the source code license was just far to restrictive then and I would create my own SDK. As familiar with the spec as I had become, it didn’t take long for me to put something together. In a few short weeks, I had an SDK that was far more complete, far less buggy, and far easier to work with than the Macromedia SDK. It wasn’t long before hundreds, then thousands of developers were downloading the SDK and posts to Macromedia’s own open-swf forum turned from questions about the Macromedia SDK to questions about this new alternative SDK. It wasn’t too long before Macromedia completely discontinued their SDK (rumor has it that product teams internal to Macromedia even considered using the SwfSource code for their own projects).

Ever since then, I've been working with the Flash File Format. I've helped put together some award winning tools that are arguably some of the most successful SWF generation tools outside of Macromedia. This gives be a unique perspective on the differences between the two formats and how these formats enable developers to create tools that work with each of them.

Admittedly, my view point isn’t the same as  a lot of people, who are perfectly content just buying the Flash IDE and can do everything they will ever need to do from there. I create tools that work with the File Format itself, tools that export their content into the Flash Format. So, if you are a software developer like myself (which is probably a good chance if you are reading this blog), then you would almost assuredly come to the same exact conclusion as myself if you knew the details of the two formats.

Animation

The Flash format itself has no notion of animation other than transformation matrices. You can apply a matrix to an element on a per frame basis to move it around. Want to move something across the screen in 3 seconds? Calculate how many frames 3 seconds will take, then calculate the matrixes required for each frame along the way. Oh, and don’t forget that the player won’t actually maintain any frame rate unless you embed blank audio tracks, so that 3 seconds might turn out to be 2 or 6 or 5, it just depends what kind of mood the machine is in.

Silverlight supports the WPF animation model, which is not only time based instead of frame based, but lets you define the start and end conditions and it will figure out how to get there for you. No need to deal with matrixes. No need to calculate positions on various frames. It just works. 

Shapes

Flash stores its shapes using binary shape records. In order to write shape definitions, you will need to either license a 3rd party Flash file format SDK, or build your own. It isn’t too difficult, but it does require a bit of a learning curve and the ability to manipulate things at the bit level, since shape records don’t align on byte boundaries. Needless to say, it isn’t the kind of thing most people can write and have all debugged in one afternoon.

Silverlight uses XAML. XAML is text based and can be output using a simple XML object. No need to buy special libraries to write files. No need to write your own libraries. Just stream some text to a file and you’re done--easily the type of thing that can be debugged and finished in an afternoon. 

Text

Flash stores its fonts glyphs using the same exact shape definitions that are used for any other shape. The player itself does not understand TTF files, so you’ll end up digging deep into the Win32 APIs and the fairly vague definitions in the Flash file format documentation to come up with something that sort of does the trick. You’ll probably spend ages trying to deal with all the intricacies of fonts, because it turns out that typography is actually fairly complex… and you will have to deal with all those complexities yourself.

WPF/E lets you embed true type font information directly into your projects, and download that information with the downloader object. No need to do anything special. No need to handle anything yourself. It just works.

Video / Audio

Flash supports multiple video formats. The latest codec is really high quality and the bandwidth usage is nice. There is one problem though if you are creating a tool that outputs Flash content… the formats it supports aren’t really used by anyone else. The original video codec, Sorenson’s proprietary H.263 implementation is a mutant version of H.263. The compression follows the spec fairly closely, but there are a bunch of features dropped out and you can’t exactly just go find a complete spec on how to build your own encoder. The later codec from On2 puts you in an even worse position. Licensing Sorenson’s codec isn’t that expensive, but On2 will rape you with fees. They are relying on revenue from licensing the codec used by Flash to revive their $2 a share stock price. It is also a completely proprietary format (where at least the Sorenson one was loosely based on a standard). The audio formats Flash supports are all proprietary, except for ADPCM, which no one uses because of its horrible compression, and MP3, which is decent but dated, and still requires licensing fees and 3rd party conversion libraries.

Compare that to the Silverlight story. Silverlight implements industry standard VC-1 codec for video, as well as offering support for WMV and WMA. Just about everyone already has Windows Movie Maker, but if they don’t it’s not a big deal. Why? Because Microsoft makes available a free Encoder SDK for producing WMA and WMV. So, not only are you using formats that people are more likely to be able to encode themselves, but Microsoft also provides your product with SDKs if you want to do the encoding yourself. The best part about it is that Microsoft doesn’t rely on WMA/WMV licensing revenue to keep themselves alive, so not only is it easier to integrate, but it’s also cheaper.

Scripting

You can reuse C# classes from your tool inside your exported content. There is no development environment out there for creating real desktop applications which is based on ActionScript. If you go the Flash route, this means that all your classes and objects have to be written twice. You need .NET classes to handle the author time experience and Flash classes to handle the run-time. If you have server components, once again you need to switch back to .NET and throw out all the classes that the run time is using. For example, let’s say you are creating a tool that outputs rich media quizzes. With Silverlight / .NET, the same entity classes you use to deal with results in the player could be reused on the server side. With Flash, you’d have to write all that logic 2x and keep it in sync as your tool changes.

Tools

You can create Silverlight content with the same tools you use on a daily basis. Visual Studio.NET is by far the most powerful and most popular IDE. You can potentially have all the code for the server components, the authoring tool components, and the runtime/player components inside the same project. No extra skills required. No needing to hire some special Flash guru to do the graphics junk. Every developer can contribute to every part of your application.

The bottom line: about the only thing Flash has going for it from my perspective is adoption. Adoption isn't hard to achieve, especially for the people that ship the operating system 90% of the world uses. As such, it's just a matter of time till that is no longer part of the equation. Adobe has a lot of work to do in the mean time, and the clock is ticking. Open sourcing Flex is a really good start in the right direction... unfortunately, Flex was built on top of the wrong platform from the start (something I told the Flex team while Flex was still in Alpha), so this last effort, while a good one, still might not be big enough to turn the tide that is coming. Now, this isn't to say that Flash isn't a great format and doesn't enable a lot of scenarios (like I said, my job is working with Flash and I'd be doing something completely different if it wasn't for Flash). So, Flash is great. Silverlight just solves a lot of the major problems that I've run into with Flash.

Comments

# Peter said on May 4, 2007 08:02 AM:

Good article. I know that you were responding to the "Flash is dead" article, but how about you take a 180 and try to put forth Flash's strong points? Is adoption really the only thing in favor or Flash? Is there something you can do in Flash and not in Silverlight? I'm not on either side. I've been reading a lot about SL and FL lately and most of the stuff I read was FUD (from both sides, but mainly Flash). There’s a lot of misinformation out there. Since you have deep knowledge about both I was wondering if you could compare the two from the other angle. Thanks.

# Rodrigo said on May 4, 2007 08:31 AM:

Silverlight has a serious problem.. it doesn't run on Linux and in "old" Windows versions like windows 2000(my case).If Microsoft solves this problem...then it might kill flash.

# Peter said on May 4, 2007 09:46 AM:

Rodrigo,

I'm not too worried about Linux; the Mono guys said they would love the challenge. I hope Microsoft gives them the help they need. Linux may be only X% of the market, but the fact that you have a competitor that runs on that OS and your solution would not makes that X% seem like (X*10)%. This may not be rational, but who said people are?

As far as Windows 2000 I would really like to know the technical reasons behind this. I'd imagine supporting OSX would be a lot harder than Windows 2000.

# Glenn said on May 4, 2007 09:55 AM:

How can I make cool animations without Onion Skinning and other tools if something isn't frame based?  

I agree that ActionScript is a mess as a programming model.  But I don't see so far how SilverLight can challenge the full functionality of Flash without having some kind of Frame based animation available, and the IDE that goes with that.

# Jonathan said on May 4, 2007 10:44 AM:

I haven't made up my mind on this whole issue, but I think considering Flex and Apollo in a more objetive manner is essential to a discussion of these issues. Java isn't going anywhere, and I think it'll work perfectly as a framework for Flex. Apollo sticks Flex (or Flash, or Ajax) applications right on the desktop, without having to rewrite anything.

I believe a more accurate way of looking at this issue is that this is the first time, at least recently, but maybe in the history of the web, that two companies have been able to innovate back and forth on the same issue to the extent and scale that Adobe and Microsoft are doing right now with RIAs. Browser wars are a joke compared to this. Yahoo and Google occasionally trade shots on an issue, like Maps, or Mail, or whatever, but I don't think the competition is as intense, or as beneficial to developers and users as this Flash/Flex/Apollo vs Silverlight has the potential to be.

I think this is the good thing about Adobe's purchase of Macromedia. Microsoft didn't seem to be entirely concerned about the swf format until Adobe bought it and decided what kind of things they would do with it. And Macromedia didn't have the size and scale that Adobe has in order to get the attention of Microsoft, or Google, or anyone else, and create this kind of competition.

# Jesse Ezell said on May 4, 2007 11:05 AM:

Functionality wise, there isn't much that Flash can do that Silverlight can't. I don't think Silverlight has support for alpha channels on video or low level, socket based communication at this time. Those eliminate a few specific usage scenarios (I know some people interested in gaming are really pushing for socket communication). The big difference IMO is that Silverlight targets application developers from the ground up, where Flash has a legacy of supporting animation. Flash is very much frame and movie clip oriented, which can be a pain when you are trying to do anything other than create a little animation sequence. Defining an application as a series of movie clips and frames is just lame.

Flex and Apollo are interesting. Apollo is a whole different ballgame though... it's like Central 2.0, and Central 1.0 was a complete failure, so I'm not expecting much from 2.0. It also doesn't deal with the creation of content, which is the side of the equation I am interested.

Flex, on the other hand, looks a lot more like Silverlight and does allow you to create SWFs. It is very much about application development. However, it still inherits all the limitations of the Flash file format. Although it has an improved animation model and can generate SWFs, you sill have the video / audio codec issues, the fact that you can only use actionscript, and the fact that you can't use your existing skills or tools. It also requires a  Java application server. So if you wanted to create an app that uses it to generate SWF, it's not a lightweight component you can bundle with your application. If an open source .NET port came out as a result of their recent announcements, it would be a lot more compelling, but that remains to be seen.

# Quentin said on May 4, 2007 04:40 PM:

I'd still say you're jumping the gun.  Also, I'd say you're making the wrong comparison, in terms of Application Development, Flex is the Adobe product to compare, not Flash.

# Jesse Ezell said on May 4, 2007 05:01 PM:

Quentin, obviously Flash isn't going away any time soon (as much as I'd like it to). I'm just pointing out why, if I had it my way, Silverlight would win in the end. I could be completely wrong, but there I think there are really good reasons to chose Silverlight over Flash (especially for the YouTube's of tomorrow who need things like lower cost video solutions).

See my comments above about Flex:

"Flex, on the other hand, looks a lot more like Silverlight and does allow you to create SWFs. It is very much about application development. However, it still inherits all the limitations of the Flash file format. Although it has an improved animation model and can generate SWFs, you sill have the video / audio codec issues, the fact that you can only use actionscript, and the fact that you can't use your existing skills or tools. It also requires a  Java application server. So if you wanted to create an app that uses it to generate SWF, it's not a lightweight component you can bundle with your application. If an open source .NET port came out as a result of their recent announcements, it would be a lot more compelling, but that remains to be seen."

# Vikram said on May 5, 2007 11:12 AM:

What ever happens I am really interested in knowing if silverlight will take the center stage in a year time. But if the microsoft guys do not support windows 2000 atleast, It cant really take the market.

# Daniel Greitens said on May 6, 2007 04:00 AM:

I think doing compairison is not the right way in this matter. There may be things that Apollo can do better an other things that Silverlight or WPF can do better. The problem is, that by dealing with phrases like "Flash is dead", you're doing nothing than supporting the people out there who think Microsoft wants nothing than to dominate the whole world.

I think the better way is to choose one of the tools and be happy that there will be a choice in future.

# qwerty said on May 7, 2007 02:48 AM:

Flash is an graphics/animation tool that developed a programming model. Not the best approach, and it's apparent if you've ever programmed a substantial Flash application. Flex (which I do professionally) is certainly an improvement, but the language and tools are still lacking.

As a .NET developer for 6 years prior to Flex, I'm acutely aware of the gap in languages and tools between Flex and .NET. Silverlight is approaching the problem of RIA development from the ground up. They have stronger, more powerful tools and languages with which millions of developers are familiar with - a solid foundation. This is a better long-term strategy and one that will make significant gains.

# Tim said on May 7, 2007 04:04 AM:

I know that Silverlight can do animation.  I have seen a few examples of the programmatic animation.  But I haven't found any example of the more "traditional animation" such as those done in the ecards of www.jacquielawson.com or www.ojolie.com.  So my question is, can Silverlight do that kind of animation?  If so, is there any example out there?

# TrackBack said on May 7, 2007 09:51 AM:
# milan said on May 7, 2007 01:07 PM:

Hi, thanks for your comparison. It's a true developer story. When you see timeline, you don't see nothing, right?  Well, I can tell you that for designers it's like: when they see code, they see nothing. They LOVE timeline and when they see timeline, they see interactions, dinamics, and everything else what you see when you look at code. That is the main reason, why designers love flash, and other designer tools (photoshop, etc) and they also prefer macs. I think that in future rich applications design the most important fact will be environment, which will allow developers and designers to collaborate. Even if SL has it's advantages over flash it is far away from replacing (or killing) it. Just my 2 cents :)

Milan

# Matt said on May 7, 2007 02:18 PM:

Hi, just to correct one thing, building a Flex 2 application does not require using a Java application server.  You can build a Flex application with the free Flex SDK or you can choose to build with the Eclipse-based Flex Builder IDE.  There are plenty of .NET developers trying and liking Flex.  We know there are plenty of improvements we can make in the tooling, but fundamentally the move can be made without much difficulty.

Matt

Flex PM

# Jesse Ezell said on May 7, 2007 06:12 PM:

But you do need a Java app server to compile the flex in the first place right? So, you'd still have to take the java dependency if you were creating an application that output SWF via Flex, which is the main problem with that approach (outside of the general file format limitations).

# TrackBack said on May 8, 2007 03:34 PM:
# milan said on May 8, 2007 05:34 PM:

well, wrong again, but never mind :)

# Quentin said on May 11, 2007 11:42 AM:

I think the one thing that a lot of people are missing in the equation is that developers can't design, no more than designers can develop, right now, Adobe has the best environment to allow them to work together best.  Microsoft has more than just silverlight to develop in order to create that environment.  I know they have Blend, but it's not, in my opinion, as good as Flash/Flex for the designer side of things.

# Fabio Serra said on May 12, 2007 05:59 PM:

You don't need any java application server for Flex/SWF applications. Compile in your own machine, maybe with eclipse, and deploy the swf wherever you want.

# TrackBack said on May 16, 2007 04:22 PM:
# Brooks Andrus » Blog Archive » Flash 9 File Format Still MIA - Flash Should Be More Open said on May 21, 2007 11:39 PM:

Pingback from  Brooks Andrus  » Blog Archive  » Flash 9 File Format Still MIA - Flash Should Be More Open

# Tino said on May 22, 2007 06:14 AM:

Flash is dead;)

# WPF Team Bloggers said on May 24, 2007 10:43 AM:

weblogs.asp.net/.../silverlight-vs-flash-the-developer-story.aspx - Interesting

# Chris Cavanagh said on May 24, 2007 03:26 PM:

Yep, Flex 2 doesn't have any dependencies on a Java app server.  Just use Flex Builder or the free SDK and you're good :)  Issues with fonts still bug me though:

 @font-face

 {

   src:url( "Assets/TradeGothicLTStd-Light.ttf" );

   fontFamily: TradeGothicLTStd-Light;

 }

All that to embed a font is just nasty ;)  Likewise embedding an image is a bit creepy (I generally like attibute-based approaches, but not this one):

 [Embed(source="Assets/MyLogo.svg")]

 [Bindable]

 public var Logo:Class;

The data binding is VERY sweet though, easier and sometimes nicer than WPF...  It'll be interesting to see which route Silverlight 1.1 takes with databinding.

# Khurram Aziz said on May 28, 2007 06:06 AM:

I commented to Adnan’s recent post on Cheaper Solutions to Flash Lite post; saying that Flash is not

# TrackBack said on May 30, 2007 12:15 PM:
# TrackBack said on May 30, 2007 12:16 PM:
# Dino Esposito's WebLog said on May 31, 2007 06:33 AM:

Nice wrap-up and perspective from Jesse Ezell on the Flash vs. Silverlight theme. I'm relatively new

# fardoche said on May 31, 2007 11:02 AM:

SL have nice developper attraction (good thing i'm developper) but we are far behind the graphic quality that we could do in flash. We are just starting to make button and control and animation on the control.

btw, i would like the Xaml of this flash site:

http://www.gettheglass.com/

# Staffan said on June 1, 2007 06:17 AM:

There seems to be some sort of misconception amongst certain persons here. I just want to make clear that Silverlight does not mean "not using timeline". For all you graphics artists out there: The Blend tool from Microsoft has Timeline animation possibilities.

# Jesse Ezell said on June 1, 2007 12:55 PM:

Good point. The difference is that with Silverlight, the timeline is actually a timeline. With Flash, it is really a frameline.

# SilverLight vs Flash? | Mysite's Advisor Blogging Spot said on June 2, 2007 10:47 PM:

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# jtadros said on June 7, 2007 03:28 AM:

How about we all discuss if an alpha/beta product beats 10 years of engineering, and market penetration?  I'm glad everyone has ideas of where silverlight needs to catch up.  Frankly it just makes Microsoft’s job easier.   The question I have is if Microsoft adds every little thing that you think Flash can do better (which they are already doing. .i.e. sockets etc. ) then who will win?   It’s not about the format if the devs listen...it’s really about adoption both by devs and users, ease of use, and market dominance.   Ever hear of Netscape, word perfect, and Apple.  No matter how cool and powerful they became in the end they were no more than a bump in the timescales.  Microsoft does one thing better than the rest..and that’s re-engineer a product and integrate it so well you in the end you really don't care to buy or use anything else.  Microsoft is listening....so keep up the great feature requests...I'm sure in 2 years of Flash's 10 years we'll all miss the good ole WordPerfect..er Adobe days. ;)

# DImi said on June 8, 2007 03:41 PM:

Given Microsoft's track record, even if the technology is better than flash/flex I dont think I would ever switch, microsoft never created anything for the good of us, untill they had too, and even then they sucked at it. Example: Mac started gaining ground with OSX and Microsoft comes out with Vista, we all saw how great that is! So for microsoft coming out and presenting this HOLY new technology that they have called silverlight! when flash has been around for 10 years is just ridiculous, people will see through the marketing propaganda. Just my opinion.

# Jesse Ezell said on June 8, 2007 06:26 PM:

Dimi, Vista kicks ass FYI.

# Keith Elder said on June 10, 2007 10:33 PM:

I saw several people commenting about if Silverlight didn't support Windows 2000 it would never make it.  My response is, "Are you kidding me?".

That operating system is 7 years old and isn't used that much at all.  I don't know what the percentage is, but it has to be extremely small.  To say it is going to kill Silverlight adoption is pretty funny.

# jrush said on June 13, 2007 05:45 PM:

Interesting to hear folks thoughts on this. I've been using flash since beta 0.9 & have always loved it, but since most of my sites leverage .net I've really been looking over SL. Unlike most of you I design & program and my reservations about SL mainly revolve around implementing a given design. Considering that PS & Illustrator are my bread & butter for design work, MS Expression appears too limited to me for applying designs to pages & user controls. I use alpha channels all the time in my designs & sure don't want to give that up. Also I'm puzzled by the perception that timelines should factor in time as opposed to being solely FPS & Layers. By leveraging time it would seem that either frames get dropped, added, or an adjusted in some way. I just don't see how that approach has smooth transitions. I would really like SL to be a hit, but in many ways it seems to have some serious flaws. Especially in terms of what can be done graphically. I admit that actionscripting is a pain, but I've always been able to get it to do what I want. The real problem with flash is that most designers can't write actionscripting & most programmers don't really get how flash movies should be structured. I'm glad to SL on the market & in the future I'd probably use both SL & flash. However to say flash is dead b/c of SL is just absurd. I think both will have a place in the future, but in my opinion SL will always be a bit limiting graphically compared with flash. I say that simply for the fact of how well Photoshop & Illustrator work with flash. Any vector work I do in Illustrator will export as a .swf file & colors, gradients, & layers are maintained. SL looks very promising, but I'll wait to make a more serious evaluation when it's out of beta.

# Flash vs silverlight « Kollaborativ said on June 14, 2007 04:05 AM:

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# jcktej said on June 15, 2007 02:00 AM:

"It also requires a  Java application server. So if you wanted to create an app that uses it to generate SWF, it's not a lightweight component you can bundle with your application. If an open source .NET port came out as a result of their recent announcements, it would be a lot more compelling, but that remains to be seen."

Flex DOESN'T requires a Java App server, you can do server side things in .NET, ColdFusion, Java or PHP.

# Alasdair Mackenzie - Such Great Heights » Flash vs Silverlight said on June 16, 2007 07:46 AM:

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# Xadoa Toloit said on June 18, 2007 04:30 AM:

Who says that MS has never done anything good? Who can touch the .NET Framework? - Java can't. Who can touch MS Office? - Everybody else is busy copying. Vista? - Surely Better than OSX - which runs on limited hardware set! And VS.NET – nothing to compare against.

Silverlight will win because it has all developers behind it. VB.NET, C#, J# and even C++ I would guess. Web applications are not about design in the end. They are about functionality. Programmers are the minds behind the designs. What good is a design if it cannot be implemented to deliver a business solution?

# Adam said on June 18, 2007 06:34 AM:

I definitley agree with Xadoa.

I am a .NET developer and have always wanted to acheive things in Flash that couldn't be done in .NET but didnt want to learn Flash.

With Silverlight, i can use all the same programming knowledge for the backend code and just learn a new front end.

I dont know anything much about the technical details of flash but I will personally be jumping aboard the Silverlight bandwagon just because I'm a .NET developer and I know many others will as well.

Something to keep in mind as well is that Silverlight is still in beta and alpha stages (dependant on what version you are working with.)

# Lee said on June 23, 2007 04:23 PM:

thanks for the great comparison, even with all that's great about flash, the programming side definitely sends shutters down my spine.

I got a question though, how would apollo and javafx compare? (dunno anything about central) What would a web app gain from being outside of the browser, any potential development issues/ security issues?

Also, how does the performance of silverlight vs flash compare? which will have the smaller app size for a similar functionality?

# Craig said on June 24, 2007 12:04 AM:

Ultimately, SL vs. Flash/Flex is really a .NET vs. 'something else' discussion.  If you are a .NET developer, you will obviously tend to do work in Silverlight.  Of course a .NET developer will not feel comfortable doing ActionScript compared to a Java developer, as many describe it as being a mix between Java and JavaScript.  IMHO, Flash will not be killed by Silverlight because in order to do that, you really have to move all the developers to .NET.  The obvious reality is that there are many developers and organizations that are rooted in languages/frameworks other than .NET (i.e. J2EE) and developers' comfort with either Flex or SL will reflect that.

<br><br>

Based on what I hear and read, I am sure SL will be excellent for .NET and RIA in general (although my organization will be sticking with Flex ;-).  I believe that weaknesses in each one will be addressed and the competition will force quick product growth and innovation in both.  Adobe will improve Flash video issues, .NET will improve its design tools - you get the picture.  The way I see it: .NET has grown tremendously and Java has grown steadily and is still strong in the enterprise.  There are still heated discussions about .NET vs. Java/J2EE as there always have been.  Similarly, I foresee SL growing tremendously in the .NET community and Flash/Flex growing as well and remaining very strong.  It's real easy to see only one side of the story when you only live on the one side of the fence - I say that for both sides.

# Chris said on June 25, 2007 10:17 AM:

Our company develops for Web and CD at the

same time with Flash. One swf can run

through Director off the CD with very little change.

Most of the time no change is needed.

Mac and PC mostly. We've yet

to ever have a client even request Linux.

Can Silverlight run the same body of code

on Web and CD? Without exposed source code?

Flash dead? Yea, right. Have fun with script

kiddies stealing your XAML code.

# Chris said on June 25, 2007 10:26 AM:

Also...

<< Web applications are not about design in the end. << They are about functionality.

And that's why most clients want to see things like

intro animations and graphics above all first.

You know, the "important" stuff.

All the while only giving you temporary materials

to work with while promising finals up to the end.

Clients aren't developers and they don't think

like you do.

Most of the time you're paid to do what THEY want.

Not what YOU want.

Design is VERY important. It is usually what

gets you the job in the first place.

Like I said clients aren't developers.

# Bobby said on June 25, 2007 06:13 PM:

Can anyone confirm that the statements posted on Grant Skinner's blog are true? That Flash really is far better than Silverlight? Check out the arguments:

www.gskinner.com/.../a_flash_of_silv.html

# tom said on June 26, 2007 03:51 AM:

How come no one has realized yet that Silverlight doesn't support the most basic components such as text box.

I know the development workflow in Sliverlight is smother compared to Flash/ Flex but come on. I truly believe that anyone who has actually done some work with Sliverlight, Expression Studio and Visual Studio realizes that this technology is at least another 18 months away from really being a possible competitor to Flash... and I don't think Adobe will be sitting on their hands.

# Burak KALAYCI said on June 26, 2007 09:29 PM:

Hi Jesse,

I don't agree that Flash is dead, on the contrary I believe Silverlight is to be born dead. Anyway, the reason I'm commenting: Macromedia decided to open up the SWF format in May 1998, when Flash 3 public beta was released, there was no SDK, just the specs. I remember that clearly because that was the time I started working with SWF format.

Best,

Burak

# John said on June 27, 2007 01:59 PM:

My biggest issues with WPF and SL is the designer tools. I work in a MS shop and I'm trying to embrace WPF, but Microsofts design tools just blow.   I've tried Expression Designer and Expression Blend. MS needs to take additional cues from Adobe and get the design stuff down before they expect me to give up Illustrator,Fireworks,Flash and Flex.  

# More about Flash & Silverlight : standing on the shoulder of colossi said on June 28, 2007 04:51 AM:

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# MSDN Up North said on June 29, 2007 06:51 AM:

Helt siden annonseringen av Silverlight på NAB tidligere i år har det gått livlige diskusjoner om hvilket

# Blog'A'Little said on June 29, 2007 07:16 AM:

Read Jesse Ezells blog about the difference between Silverlight and Flash and why you should consider

# ToolmakerSteve said on June 30, 2007 03:12 AM:

Chris Said:

> Can Silverlight run the same body of code on Web and CD? Without exposed source code? ... Have fun with script kiddies stealing your XAML code.

No, this is NOT a problem with Silverlight.

Typically, the XAML for an application gets compiled into an assembly dll, along with all the C# code. No source remains. As for running on a CD, I am going to do that test soon. Might end up compiling two different dlls, one for the CD, one for the web server, but 99% of the XAML and the C# and the media resources (bitmaps, audio, video) will be the same between the two.

# ToolmakerSteve said on June 30, 2007 03:29 AM:

> Tom said:

>> ... Silverlight, Expression Studio and Visual Studio realizes that this technology is at least another 18 months away from really being a possible competitor to Flash... and I don't think Adobe will be sitting on their hands. <<

Could be. But in the long run, Microsoft's underlying technical approach is fundamentally superior. Its not just Silverlight. Its the entire .NET approach to blending media with logic. IMHO, this is like comparing gunpowder to bow and arrow, when gunpowder was first invented and tended to blow up in your face. Yeah, the archers could still win, but not for long. For Adobe to be competitive in the long run, they would have to invent something like .NET -- not going to happen.

Yes, Microsoft's design tools are far, far behind -- and Adobe keeps moving. But given all the technology Microsoft is making available, other companies will be able to rapidly make all kinds of specialized tools, customized to particular usage scenarios, industries, or work processes. Perhaps what we'll see is Adobe hold the deeply trained graphic professionals, while everyone else ends up using .. a wide variety of interesting new tools.  Check my website early 2008, and you'll see one example (no relation to the product I've got currently). I'm sure there will be hundreds of other interesting applications from other vendors, applications that would have been too expensive to develop in any previous era.

# ToolmakerSteve said on June 30, 2007 04:06 AM:

Another thought on Adobe vs. Microsoft:

I know the graphic artist I am working with will continue to use Illustrator and Photoshop. And the videographer likewise is unlikely to use any Ms software for editing video. And some of the animations and effects we use will likely come from Flash [the tool]. So any Ms-centric web development solution will need to slurp in all those media formats.

Silverlight, because it fits seamlessly into .NET development, and includes extensible languages (XAML, C# or other .NET language), is a great platform for creating customized media services. Flash [the file format] isn't designed for such a role.

Maybe in the long run, Flash [the tool] would output Silverlight as a file format. That to me would be the best of both worlds. Adobe and Microsoft could then each make money doing what they do best, and all of us would have an overall solution that was superior to either side alone.

# Miroslav said on June 30, 2007 05:29 AM:

I see here a lot of technical comparison between Silverlight and Flash/Flex, but this is wrong way of thinking. Silverlight will end as a tool that some .Net developers use to make their products more visual attractive. Flash doesn’t need to win the battle, because there won’t be any. Flash is a tool for expressing visual creativity and that only matter.

# Headphoneguy said on July 4, 2007 05:22 AM:

From wikipedia: "Silverlight has been criticized for lack of Linux support - or indeed any platform other than Windows and Mac OS X, citing it as a factor that could limit the widespread adoption of Silverlight. However, according to Mike Harsh, a program manager for Silverlight, Microsoft will eventually port Silverlight to Linux after the work has been completed on the Windows and OSX platforms."

en.wikipedia.org/.../Silverlight

# Will Dieterich said on July 5, 2007 09:40 AM:

From a developer standpoint(not doing ads) the talk about features is basicly worthless, for the most part both Flex and Silverlight can do the same things.

What does matter is the cross-platform and cross-browser support and what will happen with it in the future.

As it is Microsoft has a horrid track record for suppling product that are not focused around the latest versions of thier products.  They do have a good track record of just dropping support for the product after they have gained market share and driven out most of the competition.

Adobe and Flash have a great track record for supporting a wide range of platforms(although coming in late to Linux) and supporting a huge amount of browsers.

According to O/S statics collected from various web sites as of June 2007 usage Silverlight is not supported on over 10% of users.

So if you are doing a cross-platform/browser web site and need to use Flex/Silverlight cabability, silverlight is not the smart one to use.

# yohami said on July 7, 2007 03:58 PM:

I can understand why Silverlight would appeal to .net engineers since they have less to learn to produce "flash like" applications, but as a flash game developer Im only interested in the results.

What can be done in Silverlight? what are the advantages, what are the weakpoints, etc. How is Silverlight stronger than flash, I dont care about video formats or SDK problems or learning platforms, thats just not the point.

# ChrisL said on July 8, 2007 03:05 PM:

Here are a few:

1. A complete integration of all MS development tools like VS.NET utilizing all of the their backend media and communication technologies for advanced enterprise level applications that many will be using regardless if anyone like it our not.

2. Utilizing the newest VS.NET will Seemless integrate with MS SQL which will give us powerful desktop applications over the web.

3. Even faster RAD deliverables and now with stunning UI designs.

4. Vector based enterprise scale application which flash was unable to achieve will now be fully accepted by larger companies which will drive the next wave in  many aspects of internet communications.

5. DirectX for with full 3D hardware support.

6. Programmers may probably build converters and importers to support SWF animations for Silverlight. So die hard flash animators may be used for cool vector effects with in a silverlight applications. Not sure how much will cross over though.

# ChrisL said on July 8, 2007 03:09 PM:

IT and Marketing are no longer in 2 different camps.  They are currently engaged and will be getting married shortly.  It would be like if Mr. Nerd marries Beautiful Chick and has a family of very intelligent, trendy, well stressed kids.

# Bayar said on July 22, 2007 09:49 AM:

Nice comparison and nice discussion.

I added your link in my Silverlight post.

You can find Silverlight related resources, tutorials and articles from my blog.

www.plentyofcode.com/.../what-is-microsoft-silverlight.html

# NKast said on July 25, 2007 08:56 AM:

Flash is dead...

..and I have found it's dead body!

# Shailesh Mewada said on August 2, 2007 09:35 AM:

If Silverlight is booming in its alpha versions then think what Microsoft can do in the next few releases.

# Yair said on August 5, 2007 01:24 AM:

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# Patrick.O.Ige said on August 10, 2007 03:06 AM:

Silverlikght Vs Flash

# Microsoft Silverlight ??? A worthy contender to Flash and what the ???Java Applets??? should really have been « TeXpressions said on August 12, 2007 07:46 PM:

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# Venkat said on August 14, 2007 01:10 AM:

The biggest problem I see with Silverlight is: You cannot have “x:code” chunks embed in the XAML file anywhere you want. One can only include in the Top parent Canvas. This fundamentally alters the web and the why many people write web applications. For example, you cannot embed mash-ups, if they contain JavaScript code.

Other limitations are, you cannot dynamically generate JavaScript code or include data for the components inside the Top-canvas..

# Alan said on August 17, 2007 11:14 AM:

The world of technology is littered with the dead bodies of "better" technologies.  The simple fact is without adoption a technology is doomed regardless of how much "better" it is.

In order of SL to succeed it has to attract the designers, not the developers.  That is how Flash got and has kept its market-share and that is where SL will either succeed or fail.  

At the end of the day a designer could give a flying crap if the file format is better.  What they care about is if they are able to pick up something easily, make it do something cool, and if they can sell it to other non-developers.

As a developer I see too many other developers who are so out of touch with reality they actually think people care about their opinion.  News flash!  90% of the rest of the world either does not understand what you are saying or does not care.

Now I would be the first to say that the adoption by developers would be extremely important if we were talking about a database technology or something that did not need to be sold to the masses... but what we are talking about is something that has to come out of the gate being ultra cool to the average person... and so far all the ultra cool stuff about SL is under the hood.  

Without the designer community SL is doomed...

One other thing.  You do not need a Java app server to compile Flex.  Not sure what you are smoking but Flex is able to be compiled from the Flex Builder IDE.

# zack said on August 17, 2007 03:21 PM:

along with all the good points made here (as well as skinner's) - there are a few more...

While adobe is no better than MS in the corporate world, the flash/flex community ( most notably OpenSourceFlash.org ) is by far stronger and more well established than anything that SL could ever hope to create.

It's funny to hear .NET guys talk about 'standards' and 'open' formats... hmm, and you work with the most closed and non-standard of them all!

Now, you're right, the FLV format is no WMV (thank god) but have you seen any web video lately? All Flash. That'll be a hard one to convert. Like the million of XP users.

But that's all nonsense. Here's the real-

go look at ToolmakerSteve's website

That's why MS, .NET and SL will never kill ANYTHING

(no disrespect Steve, but damn... )

# SpeedDesaster said on August 23, 2007 09:33 AM:

It tooks me 1h to read all the funny stuff you post here( And the links )

Here two fractions:

------------------

- Designers

There are two things i heard from the designer guys here. First "Design is much more important than functonallity", second 'Microsoft Expression ***' suxx".

First, if nobody would care about functionallity why the People go on a Website with such functionallity when they can go to museum or in a cinema( ok it's a long way but... ).

Second, if you don't want to create your graphics in Microsoft Expression '***', import the graphics from Photoshop or Illustrator( I heard you can do this ).

------------------

- Programmers

ActionScript vs. .Net, Features from hell,... :)

ActionScript 3( only 3 ) is a nice Language but the 48 and more .Net languages are nice too( specially C# ).

More Language/Framework Features -> .Net

Better drawing routines -> Flash

After this funny text...

I studied game development, so i have learned to respect both, the designer and the programmer side( I'm Programmer ).

In my job i develop at this time with ActionScript 2/3, and sometimes C#( It's not a game job, but this is changing ), and i think C# is a nice language, much nicer than ActionScript 3( And ActionScript 3 is nice too ). I also work with Photoshop, Illustrator,....

Fact is, Microsoft has much more Money, they have a own OS to spread Silverlight with one update( So over 80% of the Internet users will have it ), and at least, they have much more developers to make a silverlight a sucessfull product, that will not remove Flash from the web( Java exists and havn't got killed by .Net ), but Adobe has much to do if they want Flash alive in 5 Years.

( I hope my English doesn't suxx to much )

SpeedDesaster

# Niel Drummond said on August 24, 2007 04:43 AM:

I agree Flash is probably dead, unless they open up their file format.

Silverlight may seem great, but unless the player is ported to OS X and linux, it will go the way of ActiveX. History teaches more than poetry.

# SpeedDesaster said on August 24, 2007 11:46 AM:

-------------------------------------------

I agree Flash is probably dead, unless they open up their file format.

Silverlight may seem great, but unless the player is ported to OS X and linux, it will go the way of ActiveX. History teaches more than poetry.

-------------------------------------------

Maybe you should read something about MacOSX before you write something about it.

# McFurry said on August 28, 2007 08:14 PM:

Microsofts WRD magnification senario spills magazine bits against all Adobe efforts.  See the case where Carvel software guru Michael Mcfurry ate spanish rice and felt sick in the morning.  Macromedia made a smart busness move leveraging rich experiences to experienced rich people who own levers.  Needless to say I smell trouble for my post.

# Frank said on August 29, 2007 01:17 PM:

You would be crazy to trust Microsoft for anything that involves an open platform like the web.

Flash is great tool for making web applications.  Microsoft has a long history of making products that lock in a market subset and forcing others out.

I just can't see anyone in their right mind who wants to make a web app using Silverlight.  How could you trust Microsoft given their history... it would be painting a big "I'm stupid" sign on your forhead.

# McGruff said on August 30, 2007 09:44 PM:

Both have pros and cons. Here are my thoughts

Flash / Flex / AIF - pros /cons

- swf / actionscript is fairly hard to decompile in a useful way.

- AS 3.0 is now a strongly typed language, though nothing compared to C#.

- The Adobe Integrated Format (AIF) applications run as desktop applications on both Windows and Mac, with either SWF content, or plain old html / javascript. Perhaps we can run silverlight apps inside the AIF player (anyone have any thoughts here?)

- The latest Flash runtime (I think it's called the Flash Virtual Machine) is 10x faster than the previous flash player (because of strong typing I believe), and is thus quite capable.

- Flash video compression is quite impressive.

- Many designers / developers already know flash (though most complain about it).

- Flash code is often spread throughout many frames, and is not very organized, and is quite difficult to debug.

Silverlight Pros / Cons

-- We can now use C# for silverlight (as a xaml code behind file). C# on server, C# on client.

-- Silverlight will eventually integrate seamlessly into the ASP.NET event model, as well as the ASP.NET AJAX framework.

-- Source code is not protected (AFAIK) -- though this is only a partial issue because many SV "applications" will have client - server interactions and the server code is not accessible.

-- Silverlight is still very new and needs time to grow up. It's just simply not there yet, but it's growing quickly.

-- Frameworks will be developed to make developing RIA applications quite easy. I could see the Acropolis framework ported to Silverlight.

# yloquen said on September 5, 2007 11:27 AM:

Interesting thoughts.

Flash is not dead for certain. It has a lot of momentum, so it will take at least a few years even if Silverlight is strictly better in everything. And Adobe will not exactly wait for that to happen.

Nobody brought up price. With Flash , if you abandon the IDE, you get everything for free ... Is that so with SL?

# conte said on September 5, 2007 01:00 PM:

well, i guess jesse is a microsoft fan boy ("vista kicks ass" - what a crap), but appreciate the comparison anyway. But to my 2 cents:

- I think it´s a stereotype that developers don´t know about design and designers don´t know about dev. - IMHO the real outstandig people out there are both and now about both.

- from a app developers point of view Jesse might have a point, but he totally forgets to mention the streams of tears of agony Microsoft developers shed already about Microsoft products and tools - don´t think that will change with silverlight

# bowlman said on September 5, 2007 10:42 PM:

yloquen... i expect that SL code can be compiled with the .NET compiler that you get when you install .NET Framework or Mono/Moonlight.  There are actually heaps of free .NET tools out there and we will see some for SL/Moonlight as well.

# Microsoft Buys Corel | SilverlightFlashKiller said on September 7, 2007 08:44 AM:

Pingback from  Microsoft Buys Corel | SilverlightFlashKiller

# Microsoft Buys Corel | SilverlightFlashKiller said on September 7, 2007 09:19 AM:

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# Ronald Avendaño said on September 7, 2007 05:40 PM:

Just a question... Microsoft paid u for said that crazy things?

# Jeremy Daley said on September 10, 2007 11:00 AM:

i haven't read all the replies to see if this has been said already, but from what i've seen, Silverlight only embeds through a javascript (no object/embed tags).

i this this would be a problem for myspacer's or bloggers who are restricted from implementing their own javascript.

i may be uninformed on this, so forgive me if i'm wrong...

# KN said on September 10, 2007 11:16 PM:

There are always a couple of things that one tool can do that others can't. Flash/Flex have unprecedented animation capabilities that only artistic people can appreciate and SL is no where near it. Every site that's been defined visually cool for the past decade was most possibly done in Flash; and Flex is growing on that foundation. Likewise, SilverLight has the unprecedented support in .Net framework and it's legion of developers that Flex can't match. It is stupendous to call one technology/community dead rather than cherishing the competition. Where would IBM be if not for Microsoft, and where would Yahoo and MS be if not for Google. It is called FREEDOM of CHOICE. Every living being deserves it.

# DZ said on September 17, 2007 02:39 AM:

I just cant wait for MS plans to integrate Silverlight with XNA Game Studio Express, for all that rich unprecedented graphic and animation capabilities :)).

# Rob said on September 17, 2007 03:59 PM:

I don't think Silverlight should be compared to Flash. Sorry, but whenever I see Flash on a web site, I look for the skip button so that I can get to the real content. While Flash can be used to great effect, its usually used for value-free marketing gloss, and frankly, I find all those 'cool animations' superficial and annoying.

Silverlight (especially from 1.1 onwards) will be used be developers to create cross platform browser based content with genuinely interactive client side functionality that doesn't rely on the 'make do' string and sticky tape of AJAX.

If Silverlight makes Web sites look nice, that's great too, but that's not why it will be successful. Silverlight will finally make it easy for developers to create browser hosted software that matches the user experience of desktop or client/server apps.

# CK said on September 23, 2007 06:05 PM:

see www.microsoft.com/silverlight

Siliver know supports some flavours of linux (i think its also supprted on mac) and the list a list of some popular websites that are now using silverligght, wwe.com, mlb.mlb.com to a few. So SL seems to be gaining adoption slowly.

# Blog de Juan Peláez said on September 24, 2007 09:32 AM:

Extractado del Blog de Jesse Ezell , quien ha tenido una amplia experiencia en desarrollo de herramientas

# Silverlight Vs Flash: Trying to collect different opinions | MCSE Blogs said on September 26, 2007 03:42 AM:

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# Pieter Kersten.com » Blog Archive » Silverlight vs. Flash: The Developer Story said on September 28, 2007 08:20 AM:

Pingback from  Pieter Kersten.com  &raquo; Blog Archive   &raquo; Silverlight vs. Flash: The Developer Story

# Kurt (AS Dev) said on October 1, 2007 08:32 PM:

Hey, I love microsoft, but turned away from their products because of lack of open source. Will admit that I sort of like Vista, but think Linux blows it out of the water, plus it's FREE.

A lot of statements made in the main article of this page are logical fallacies in regards to the Flash authoring environment and Flex 2 Flex 3, and adobe's free SDK. I highly recommend this article. www.onflex.org/.../m-silverlight-vs-adobe-flash-player.php

# Silverlight Takes on Flash: A Race to Deliver Rich Interactive Contents on the Web « Television and Interactive Content said on October 2, 2007 04:22 AM:

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# sami said on October 4, 2007 07:16 AM:

can anyone please show me a silverlight application that cannot be done in flash except the 3D stuff.

Can applications like buzzword be built in silverlight?

Can we build a portal based fully on silverlight?

Al the demos I have seen done with silverlight have been on the web since some years.

I recoomend everybody to stop beleiving the hype . Instead believe what you see.

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# POKE 53280,0: Pete Brown's Blog said on October 10, 2007 01:31 PM:

Vishwas turned me on to this article , by Jesse Ezell, pointing out some of the shortcomings in Flash

# Bogrollben said on October 11, 2007 10:48 AM:

These opinions are still strongly divided into 2 camps:

Flash - Great for animation. For coding though it's taken a VERY long time (and 8 player versions) for anything solid  to materialize, like Flex, AS3.0, etc. Debugging still sucks AFAIK.

Silverlight - Great for coding. Animation tools suck.

It's interesting to note that for the last few years, the coolest flash sites are almost always ones that integrate really difficult dynamic coding into flash movies. Now for Microsoft the coin is flipped and the coolest SL sites are going to be ones where they figured out how to do a slick animation.

Conclusion: If Adobe stayed the same and if MS dramatically improved their designer tools, I think MS would win. But Adobe won't stay the same and MS might not improve their tools, so it's definitely good competition at this point.

# Mahesh Ramachandran said on October 12, 2007 02:38 AM:

Silverlight has a big drawback over its network foorprint over Flash. Flash delivers compiled binary vs Silverlight which delivers Text based XAML. Hence the amount of content that is delivered over Flash is much smaller compared to XAML. Try delivering similar UX over the web & access it over a 512 Kbps connection from anywhere in Asia and you'll know what Iam talking about.

Do you really think Flash is dead?

# John A said on October 13, 2007 06:17 PM:

Silverlight also offers the compiled binary option.  The XAML is compiled into BAML, which is binary and smaller in size.  Actually, Microsoft recommends this.

# Julius said on October 15, 2007 07:40 AM:

It’s the middle of October, and Silverlight is nowhere to be seen... How could it be that Silverlight, such a killer-app is so... ...Dead?

# Steve said on October 15, 2007 03:50 PM:

How is BAML for streaming, as I don't think you would be able to stream in XAML.  If BAML can't handle that I would see it as a rather large problem for Silverlight and Vid

# Swiss DPE Team Blog said on October 16, 2007 06:41 AM:

Seit anfangs September ist Silverlight 1.0 ( http://www.silverlight.net ) released, nachdem es im Mai

# Noticias externas said on October 16, 2007 07:44 AM:

Seit anfangs September ist Silverlight 1.0 ( http://www.silverlight.net ) released, nachdem es im Mai

# MSDN Blog Postings » Silverlight vs Flash said on October 16, 2007 09:21 AM:

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# JLM said on October 16, 2007 10:05 AM:

People are taking up ruby because it is nice to work with, designers are not going to take up XAML because it is not nice to work with, I know I am working with it.

Blend is so far behind the flash IDE in terms of creative flow you might as well start creating your own version, and often it is easier to hand code the XAML.  No one yet has any idea how to really work well with XAML in large applications.

XML solves everything is a current mistake, panel are good but start trying to animate and jump between code and graphics, and reusing sections of XAML like movieclips instances, na you guys missed the sum of parts aspects of flash.

# SLdoah! said on October 18, 2007 04:18 PM:

Hi – flash developer here

(in addition to C#.net, VB,  PHP, AJAX, and every freakin design tool you have ever heard of)

I love all the comments from MS developers who cant/wont learn flash/actionscript. Honestly, imho the best SL can ever become is roughly equivalent to Flex - or as I like to refer to it "canned-flash for the layout challenged".

With effective use of actionscript, it will do anything you tell it to do (with a tiny footprint, and low resource allocation). But it does take a level of graphic talent to handle it all - which I understand is a bit threatening. I am all for frameworks…but I don’t them.

Silverlight will fail because propeller-heads are not art freaks and hippies. Back away from the client code-monkeys, and leave the aesthetic to the eclectic.

Even better, SilverLight will be to Flash what Front Page was to Visual Studio. (I know, that smarts).

The only way it will take off is if "designers" adopt it and produce flash killer UI's with it. (that ain’t happening - from what I have seen so far). People, designer types aren’t leaving Adobe.

Do you really think you can force designers to use SL just b/c it will be easier on you?

Ha! Btw, when is MS coming out with a Photoshop killer? lol. Wouldn’t that be the next logical step? *I am grinning big right now*

Then, one blessed day you wouldn’t need graphic designers at all, and the web will resemble a communist nation or even better, a huge, featureless brick-wall with two colors of bricks, and one color of grout (grey prolly). Won’t it be lovely?

One day when you crank open VS, and bind a control to a datasource in your aspx pages, the UI will automatically created by SL by simply adding another page directive and a single line in web.config:

<appSettings>

<add key="GUI_type" value="Gates_CheesyUI_1"/>

</appsettings>

Silly...programmers. You can’t do it all yourselves. And if you do, no one wants to look at the result. But you know that already. Sheesh….

Here's a suggestion – instead of bashing flash, and those “special” flash developers you love to hate (like me) I would say to approach them and BEG them to try Silver Light.

I would even suggest giving licenses away to these people, in addition to offering free training. If not, they will never have a reason to switch, and you wont get too far teaching stud MS developers how to use it if they don’t have an eye for it in the first place.

I will be waiting – but not holding my breath.

Good luck, and God speed.

# wow. said on October 21, 2007 09:50 AM:

SLdoah -

Love your comments, but I dont think anyone hates you. 8] (jealous maybe)

You are right though, what Microsoft really needs is to tap into that rare breed of "programming designer" that would be willing to cross over to Silverlight. The easiest way is to give them incentives for bringing thier talent over.

Another way is to demonstrate huge income potential for someone with this skillset - but make no mistake, this type of head count is expensive (but very neccessary) for any employer who cares about the front-end.

I dont think that its a one way or the other propisition btw. Those who will excel at this new technoloy will continue to excel at Flash/Flex/Actionscript.

If you compensate them, they will come.

# Hua said on October 23, 2007 01:51 PM:

Hi,

I am new to silverlight and Flash. Can we create a silverlight application using dynamic data loaded from Database? I am searching for an example, I can not find one.

thanks

# Tdz said on October 24, 2007 12:22 PM:

Wow im speachless. Iv worked with flash for a good 4-5 years now and, well actually Im impressed by what you say. I mean, for example, that you have to put a blank sound to force a regular frame rate is absurd. Why go into so much trouble when you can just use intervals... I mean, im not saying that silverligh dosen't have potential...but its faaar from what flash is doing right now and it will take time before it catches up. Too much time if you ask me, flex has become simpler, air will make everything better, and silverlight will fall into the shadows until MS shows you ppl what we have in stores..

# Jonas said on October 25, 2007 02:46 PM:

I'm surprised one very simple point has NOT been substantially brought up. The Designer vs. Programmer issue. Design vs. Code.

I mean if you take away the fact that a non coder can do some pretty amazing stuff in Flash, well, then Flash AS is just another language. But it never was AS that brought me to it, but rather the SIMPLICITY of being able to animate and create interactivity with ease. What tools can a designer use in conjunction with SL?

Is there a WYSIWYG GUI like Photoshop/Premiere/After Effects/Flash that I can use?

# Todd Anglin's Code Campground said on October 26, 2007 05:15 PM:

In what can only be considered one instance in a series of examples, I saw this story today on TechCrunch

# Edward Apostol said on October 29, 2007 02:35 PM:

Just to clarify for all those M$ - centric folks, You really should be comparing SilverLight to Flex, not Flash. Flash (the "Player") is just the plugin, and the branded name for the authoring tool used for over a decade to make rich internet app-type stuff.

Hey - it looks like everyone on this thread forgot (or were to young to know) that M$ tried to enter into this environment over a decade ago. When Flash was in its infancy, M$ bought a company called Liquid Motion, which had a product called Liquid Motion Pro... the software allowed you to create animations using a timeline based mechanism...If they treat Silverlight like they treated Liquid Motion Pro, than its as good as dead.

# New to the RIA topic said on October 30, 2007 08:16 AM:

I wonder how one could create an app that manages peripherals with Flex/Flash. Is there any kind of integration between action script and Java? I mean not via an app server but simply being able to invoke methods on local java classes. I guess it can be done in SL since it simply integrates with .net languages.

In Flex/Flash world what would be the better way to integrate the presentation layer with business logic and hardware control? Thinking about a kiosk type app?

# NuUzer said on October 31, 2007 05:49 PM:

IMHO the *true* power of flash is on the server, NOT on the client.

I'm referring to FMS (or any other open source equiv. e.g. Red5). Does SilverLight have an associated server engine? If not, it cannot even begin to compete with Flash technology on any serious level for building full-featured, audio/video database-driven, multimedia apps.

# Ducky said on November 1, 2007 03:30 PM:

Flash sucks - it doesn't run on Win 3.1.

# NuUzer said on November 2, 2007 09:07 AM:

Ducky, Win 3.1 has been extinct for a while now...

# me said on November 3, 2007 06:19 AM:

"Does SilverLight have an associated server engine?"

Silverlight content is just plain xml any web scripting language will already allow server integration.

For me the biggest positive about the Silverlight plugin is the smooth hardware accellerated playback at 60fps. It puts the flash player to shame.

However I find the Flash Design tools are far easier to use than Expression Blend.

# 60fps? said on November 4, 2007 08:36 AM:

60fps? Why would you waste processor cycles like that for ....anything?

Do you know the human eye can only detect 32fps -ish. Anything more is just wasted frames for visualy effects.

Why on earth would you ever want anything running that fast? lol.

You need to get out of your cube more often dood. I hear the outdoors around Redmond is fabulous this time of year.

# casey said on November 5, 2007 05:01 PM:

From a nice posting here:

http://www.colettas.org/?p=93

Unlike Flash/Flex it(Silverlight) doesn’t do (as of v1.1):

sound processing

binary data exchange

sockets

per pixel bitmap editing

bitmap filters (convolution, color matrix etc)

bitmap effects (drop shadow, blur, glow)

frame based animation (i.e. hand made)

webcam

microphone

text input

e4x

built in file upload/download

user controls

layout engine

local data storage

linux player

express install (through player)

BACKWARDS COMPATIBILITY for 10 years so far! 1.1meg footprint

… these are just a few features.

Id say MS has a long way to go.

# Winturds said on November 6, 2007 03:10 AM:

I knew I read enough after seeing "...vista rocks...".  Within 5 minutes of using Vista I (really!!) wanted to take the whole-tower outside and beat it with a baseball bat.  Then go out to the street and throw the remnants down the sewer, followed by a molotov cocktail to ensure that "no raccoons were harmed in the destruction of this MicroJunk product".

Fact of the matter is that if you want something crappy, get Microsoft to do it.  Ev