Jeff Key

AAC is NOT proprietary - WMA is. Why do you begin your analysis by accepting WMP as your axiomatic "preferred media player"? Hundreds of Windows users in public forums (ArsTechnica, OSNews, and others) have declared their preference for iTunes over WMP after giving the Apple program a try. So you reach a conclusion that is driven by the door you enter. Unless, of course, you really DO prefer WMP. And given the size of the Windows world, I bet that WMA will be hacked into iTunes in a matter of weeks.

Thanks for the info, I appreciate your candor. For some reason I was under the impression AAC was proprietary. I apologize for the inaccuracy and I updated my post to reflect it.

If you'll reread my post, you'll note that I'm writing about me, my experiences, my preferences and so on. At the same time, I'm not recommending anything to anyone; simply stating my opinion. Therefore, it would be silly of me to NOT state that WMP is my preferred media player, because it is. I'm sure there are better ones out there for any number of reasons, but WMP does what I want and I've never run into a situation that made me look for something else. I'll bet that I'm in the majority of Windows users, although that's irrelevant.

I ripped several hundred CDs to WMA. (I wish I would've ripped them to MP3 now; I've noticed MP3 at higher bitrates sounds better than WMA.) If I can't play them in iTunes, I'm not going to use iTunes. Likewise, my portable media player plays MP3 and WMA, as most do, I believe. As I understand it, only the iPod plays AAC. That doesn't work for me either.

I'll be the first to admit that I know little about all of the great sound formats, cool media players, and so on. Again, I think I'm in the majority, and my experience probably isn't uncommon. I think iTunes is great and I may use it in the future if they support the more common formats.

It's fantastic that so many Windows users are using iTunes. I've never liked the religious issues surrounding the computer industry. I don't care what OS/media player/browser/etc people use. I care about what I use and if something doesn't work w/my configuration, that's OK, I just won't use it. Makes my life just a bit less stressful (and the last thing I need is more stress).

iTunes DOES support MP3... you can even rip CD's using the MP3 encoder!

iTunes, the service, does not support MP3. As I've mentioned, this presents a problem to my portable. iPods are great, but I'm not buying one; I have too many albums to keep on them, even the newer ones.

This is all irrelevant anyway due to the fact that there isn't much on the service for me to buy. They simply don't have much in the way of independent labels. I'm sure this will change over time. Maybe then I'll buy an iPod, get a Mac, re-rip all of my CDs, and curse everything Microsoft. In the meantime I'm stuck in my world where it just isn't useful to ME.

AAC == Mpeg 4. Mpeg 4 is of greater quality that mp3 of course. If you convert m4a to mp3 you would of couse get something similar to a quality had the file originally been in mp3 to begin with.

http://www.apple-x.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=563&mode=thread&order=1&thold=0

You really need to read the third post on the above...

Long live macs and great software

Jasey: Very cool. It's unfortunate they won't play in my Rio, DVD player or boombox (all of which play MP3/WMA).

iTunes, the program, plays MP3 just fine. iTunes Music Store uses MP4/AAC, which has digital rights management built-in to an industry standard.

WMA is a Microsoft proprietary technology, so it's unlikely Apple is going to pay licensing to Microsoft to be able to use it.

Other software like WinAMP and other digital players could play AAC songs if they choose to support QuickTime, I believe.

i think you're actually making it more work than it is worth - i use a ipod and tunes just go on that and, blam u go, u got music... if ur rippin to WMV it aint worth it

Disclaimer: I'm not partial to WMA. Since ripping most of my CDs to WMA (>40GB), I've noticed MP3 is warmer at the higher bitrates. If I had to do it over again, I'd rip to something beside WMA. I'm your typical Joe User when it comes to stuff like this; WMP did exactly what I wanted, so I used it. You guys need to remember that you're in the minority. Not everyone knows everything about all of the codecs, players, etc. The issues I had may be a result of my ignorance of this topic, but they will be experienced by many, many more people: The "I just want it to work w/o having to futz around with it" crowd.

Carlos: AFAIK, most other media players play WMA. If I didn't have over 40GB of stuff in WMA it wouldn't be an issue. Also, why would other players need to support QuickTime if they chose to play AAC? Isn't AAC a standard?

ash: If it was only that easy! :) The biggest iPod available is 40GB. It's $500.00. I have over 40GB of music. I have a portable player that plays my music. Even if I had < 40GB of music, why in the world would I spend $500 on a player to replace one that already works? Not only that, I would need to re-rip 11,568 tracks off of my CDs. All of this so I could use the iTunes service, which doesn't really have any music that I like anyway. I'll pass. ;)

Who on earth would want to lock themselves into using a proprietary file type such as WMA?

Dude, take another look...iTunes supports MP3s from the very beginning. Under Preferences->Importing you'll see some choices as to the encoder you'd like to use when ripping a CD.

If you purchase music through the iTMS, it'll be in AAC format (because of the DRM scheme being used). If you want to convert to MP3, then you''l have to burn to CD and re-rip to WMA. Hint: if you do it that way, make a MP3 CD rather than an audio CD so you'll fit more on the CD; an audio CD will retain higher fidelity, but you'll have to judge that for yourself.)

Tony: Millions of us already have.

Anon: Dude, I have >40GB of WMA files already. What am I going to do w/those? I don't have the time to re-rip 11,568 files, although I would love to since I prefer higher bitrate MPx files, as I've mentioned previously. Unfortunately, it won't let you burn an MP3 CD with M4P files, nor will it let you convert M4P to MP3.

Here is a copy of that explanation of AAC files vs. WMA and mp3 from apple-x:

People need to understand that the AAC files on the iTunes Music Store are not encoded from CD albums themselves. They are "ripped" from the 24 bit audio master--the same master from which CDs are created. So the lossy compression AAC file resulting is usually equal to, or higher in sound quality than what you find on a CD due to the modern compression algorithm being utilized. The music contained on CD albums have been re-sampled to 16-bit audio. In both instances sound information is lost. Too many people think that the iTunes Music Store files are ripped from CDs, thus implying the sound quality is degraded. So statements such as, "Besides, iTMS music files are too[sic] low quality for me." make absolutely no sense whatsoever, except to show that such person has no business providing reviews.

Furthermore, audio on CDs is sampled at 44.1kHz, so ripping songs from one's CD collection into 320kbps 48kHZ (not 48000) goes on to show this person has no understanding of audio and mp3 compression whatsoever. Encoding something with source of 44.1kHz into something else with 48kHz makes absolutely no sense and the result isn't going to be pretty. Furthermore compressing the file to 320kbps using the mp3 algorithm is stupid as you neglect any benefit for which the mp3 compression was intended. Anyway, this goes to further support my claim that reviewers should be limited to those who are knowlegeable about what they are reviewing before making comments to a broad audience, some comments of which may be inaccurate and misleading.

Tony: As I've said several times before, I could care less about formats and I'm certainly not emotionally tied to WMA. I just can't stomach posts like yours. Here's the poop: WMA at lower bitrates sounds better than MP3 and the files are smaller. WMA is supported by almost every media player, portable, etc. So what if it's proprietary? I can play WMA on my computer, on my Rio, in my DVD player, etc. M4A/P isn't proprietary. I can't play it on my Rio, I can't play it in my DVD player, my boombox, etc. How is that better? I can't find a way to have iTunes talk to my Rio. How is that better? Isn't Apple locking me in by only supporting iPod?

I'm now convinced M4A/P is the way to go. BUT nothing I use, other than computer media players, support it, so I can't go with it yet. Sure, I could re-rip everything to MP3, but what's the point? I can do all that with WMP. I actually like some of the stuff in WMP that iTunes doesn't have, like the AMG info, etc. I really like using iTunes, but it just doesn't work in my current situation.

One simple thing would make me switch: If iTunes supported WMA playback (like everyone else). I could live with copying things to my Rio manually. If iTunes supported my existing library I could much, much more easily transition to using MPA for my private collection and make iTunes my permanent player. I still wouldn't be able to play the things I downloaded on my Rio, DVD player, etc., but considering I have 11,568 other song to choose from, that's not a huge issue.

Thanks cossmo. Regarding the comments about "reviewers": I blogged my experience, which I think is valid. I'm a typical user. I use the free stuff Microsoft gives out, just like millions of other Windows users. My experience is valid to the majority of my peers.

Anyway, I haven't debated the quality of AAC. I think it's great and I've stated that several times. If my Rio, DVD player, etc. supported it, I'd use it.

This issue of WMA versus the higher quality AAC open format reminds me a little (just a very little) about my friend having a huge vinyl collection with his expensive turntable and cartridge needles who moved into CDs kicking and screaming. Not an easy thing for your to do Jeff, since you have 11,000+ songs in WMA. Maybe a suggestion is for you to jump to AAC with any new songs you acquire and slowly convert the ones you listen to into mp3. Nothing says you have to convert everything over, but this seems to be the deliema we all face not just with sound files, but with documents created years ago that most new pieces of equipment can't read. Such is life.

BTW, the article I sent was to explain the differences in the quality, not to flame you. I thought about editing, but decided to just leave it as originally posted on apple-x.

Sorry if I came off harshly; I've quickly become accustomed to getting flamed. :)

Anyway, I agree completely. If iTunes supported WMA, I could switch over immediately. I wouldn't make sense for me to re-rip things over time to MP3 and still use two players in the process (WMP for WMA and iTunes for everything else). One of the reasons I ripped everything was so I could have an "ultimate shuffle". I'm rediscovering things I haven't listened to in years. Some albums sound fine in WMA, but some are lacking depth. I don't have a problem re-ripping those that require better quality if I'm using a single player.

Regardless of players, formats, etc., the fact that the iTunes service doesn't carry most of the music I listen to makes this whole thread moot. I'll revisit this topic in a few months and see what they offer. If their catalog is more robust I'll certainly reconsider. If I can make most/all of my music purchases through them it would surely alter my position.

AAC was developed by Dolby. I would think that they know something about sound, no?

The DRM that Apple uses - 'Fairplay' - has LESS restrictions thAn M$s DRM.

iTunes has ALWAYS supported mp3. And STILL does.

MacBuddy: AAC is great. What's your point?

To convert a non-MP3 file to MP3 in iTunes, set MP3 as your Importing format (Preferences > Importing > Import Using), select the song(s) and then pull down the Advanced menu and select "Convert Selection to MP3." No need to double convert or burn any CDs.

If you set AAC as your importing format, the Advanced selection will be "Convert Selection to AAC."

iTunes doesn't support WMA because it is a closed Microsoft format. If your player doesn't support open formats like AAC, maybe you should consider getting a better player before bashing iTunes???

...just a thought

pixelguru: Have I bashed iTunes? No. Have you read any of my responses? Apparently not. Did you miss "iTunes: Great program" and "..iTunes clearly shines".

Come on guys, I've responded to all this already, several times. This is my last post in this thread. If you're actually reading this and plan on flaming me, please read this whole thread before doing so. I'm not bashing Apple or AAC or anything else, for that matter. I had a bad experience. It happens. Even with Apple stuff. Thanks for your input.

To summarize:
- I think iTunes is great.
- AAC/M4A/M4P are great formats, better than WMA.
- I have 11,568 WMA files. Other formats are better. I realize this. If you want to re-rip hundreds of my CDs for me to M4A, come on over. I don't have time, but I'll pay for beer.
- iTunes doesn't support WMA, therefore it's not a good solution for ME. Now.
- iTunes doesn't carry music I like, therefore there's really not much for me to buy.
- I've used Macs since the early days when you could stuff the little box in a bag. I think they're great.
- I love each and every one of you.

You've voiced your (current?) preference for WMA, AND your unwillingness to to re-rip your 11k+ songs. Yet you complain that Apple doesn't support WMA.

You 'chose' MS's solution, yet you want Apple to 'fix' it? Had you 'chosen' the 'open' mp3 format - at a decent bitrate - you may not be in this situation today.

BTW, does MS support (Apple's choice of) Dolby's AAC?

Does Chevy support Ford engines ?

The question that the folks on board should have been asking isnt whether AAC or WMA is superior to one or another, but why the other portable players do not support AAC.

I mean, how difficult is it to support an open standard? The codes are there, the licensing scheme is there, everything under the Huwawa Sun is there.

Rather than bitching at Apple for not supporting WMA, a closed standard, how about bitching about Roxio and the other mofos about not supporting open standard. This goes against the spirit of many platforms that have emerged in the past. . . that being. . an open standard always seems to win out.

Why not have those commodities support dual standards? WMA, AAC, and other linux sampling compressions? Is it difficult? I doubt it.

Either way, why did Roxio and the other mofos committ their souls to WMA? It doesnt make sense, theyre in the business to make money. .so why lock themselves into one single code? On the other hand, with Apple, its understandable. . they want to sell as many iPods as possible, and they encoded the iTunes so it would only play AAC.

The funny thing is. . if Roxio and the other mofos started to support AAC, the advantage of the iPod other than its design, would disappear.

Go figure.

"So what if it's proprietary?"

"'m a typical user. I use the free stuff Microsoft gives out, just like millions of other Windows users."

Jeff--

I know you said that you won't be responding anymore to this thread, but I'm hoping that you're still at least *reading* the additional posts, because I think that the two quotes above (from two separate posts of yours in this thread) are at the heart of the issue.

You're right, millions of Windows users, haven't given a rat's ass about Microsoft's closed, proprietary formats for years--whether it's Office formats like .doc, .xls, .ppt or media formats like .wmv and .wma, or even their corrupted version of Java. This is at the heart of the DOJ's failed-even-though-they-won antitrust case against Microsoft: they've abused their frightening position (over 90% market share) in one field by cramming their own versions of "standards" down the throats of everyone else (see the formats above). THIS is what's illegal, immoral and unethical, NOT having the operating system monopoly in the first place.

Here's the way it works in a nutshell:

--an independant group of unbiased experts in a given technology will come up with a particular set of standards for a given format, which every company (except Microsoft) agrees is the highest quality, most customizable, and most consumer-beneficial available.

--Microsoft will come out with it's own format which is usually of lesser quality, less customizable, and less consumer-beneficial than the agreed-upon standard.

--Microsoft will then flood the OS market (which it owns over 90% of) with it's often inferior, usually buggy, always proprietary format. It will offer the "first hit for free" of course, to guarantee that most people use it. It will then proceed to strongarm all of it's vendors/customers into using it's format (and ONLY it's format), under penalty of being destroyed, bought out, or driven out of the marketplace by the mighty Microsoft.

--as a result, you end up having a constant pattern of dueling formats: a high-quality one agreed upon by the general community, and a lesser-quality one crammed down everyone's throat by Microsoft. In most cases, unfortunately, Microsoft wins by brute force.

This time, the battle is between AAC (open, higher-quality) and WMA (closed, lower-quality). AAC has the open standards groups, Apple, the iPod, and the iTMS in it's corner (all of which are there voluntarily). WMA has Microsoft and a plethora of iTMS wannabes in it's corner (some of whom are there only out of fear of being squashed by Microsoft if they don't tow the line).

It will be interesting to see who prevails this time...

Jeff, I have a simple idea for you, go to download.com and pick up a free copy of dbPower AMP.

This software will convert your proprietary WMAs to mp2,mp3,m4p, using a large set of different encoders. Be sure to download the wma codec plug-in from their page and give iTunes a fair chance with the converted music.

This won't solve the problem with putting music from the Apple Music Store on your mp3 player, but it is a start.

Furthermore, email me if you need more help with the process.

BTW, which of these might be a 'cheaper' solution for 'Apple'?

a) You invite some folks over for an all weekend Beer and Pizza, then Beer and ChineseFood, mp3-ripping, sleep-over.

Or...

b) Apple has a team of 4-5 people incorporate the WMA codecs into iTunes & the iPod over a work week and post them on their website, plus have some of their lawyers pound out 'the deal' with TheBomber for licensing.

Jeff

There are shareware programs that convert WMA to MP3 format. Having never used them I can't recommend one over another, but it might be worth a try to convert a couple and see how they sound. I find that iTunes sound quality is better than WMP.

Go to http://www.versiontracker.com and search on WMA.

Some one, I forget who, mentioned that the iPod is the only player that uses AAC. Albeit there aren't as many, yet, they do exist.

Do a google search, it may surprise you.

Some manufacturers I found.
.... Panasonic
.... Creative Labs
.... Samsung
.... Pogo flipster

AAC is realatively new and will only gain in acceptance for compressed music.

wow man, 31 comments. Did your blog entry get linked from a Mac fan site like my iPod entry did?

Charles Gaba-- I do like your summary of what this monopoly has created. Trouble with situations like this is MS is also in the position to do some "funny stuff". Awhile back, many windows users were getting lots of error messages when using Quicktime, so the majority of them got so frustrated and uninstalled it in favor of WMA or realplayer. In fact there was nothing wrong with QT but it was caused by MS. But your explanation is right on -- this is always the argument I have with my brother's who stays with windows in that doing so perpetuates this kind of illegal activity. There should be much more competition out there to always stimulate higher and higher quality products. We should be open to other formats like Linux and others.

Now that 1 million versions of iTunes and 1 million songs have been sold during the first 3 days, I think music devices will quickly adapt to AAC, making it the defacto standard. I really believe that all of discussion will be moot in a couple of months.

By the way, I don't think that Jeff is trying to push Apple to license WMA into the iPod (although the lack of WMA is what's stopping me from buying one). All he wanted, I think, was to have iTunes be able to play WMAs. Given that the WMA playback code is free and freely redistributable on Windows, I don't think it's much of a stretch to ask Apple to support WMA playback on iTunes for Windows.

Jeff, this suggestion won't be of immediate benefit, but should help in the long run. The main caveat is that it requires more storage space than you may like.

Whenever you get around to re-ripping your audio from the original source material (CD, etc.), rip it to a compressed, but lossless format such as WMA Lossless (or others like Monkey's Audio, etc., whatever your preference).

Keep this lossless media on you harddrive as an archive of the content that is smaller than the original wav audio, but retains the exact same quality.

Then, you can transcode the content from lossless format to whatever lossy format is currently popular for whatever portable device you have at the time. This will save you from ever having to re-rip from the original CD or other source (barring harddrive failure, accidental erasure, etc.).

Also, if you used WMA Lossless, for example, and MS developed Windows Media 10 and was able to improve the compression ratio of the lossless codec, or there was another lossless format that offered better compression, etc., and you wanted to convert your archive to that format for the increased benefits, you could transcode to the new format directly (with available tools) without loss in quality. Or, if necessary, you can convert the WMA Lossless back to wav, then encode in the new lossless format while still retaining original quality.

Microsoft has a commandline tool

Windows Media Audio 9 Lossless to PCM Converter

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/9series/encoder/utilities.aspx

to convert WMA Lossless files back to wav, and, of course, WMP can produce Lossless content from the original source and transcode from the lossless media in your library to a lossy format for your portable.

Monkey's Audio can also be converted back and forth or transcoded.
http://www.monkeysaudio.com/index.html

Also, dbPowerAmp is a good (and free) tool for conversion between a number of formats (including WMA and Monkey's Audio)

http://www.dbpoweramp.com/dmc.htm

will be interesting to see what format the dell players are going to support when they come to market. my guess is that they support wma mp2 mp3 and m4a but unless msft improves wma dramtically it is still a gonner except as an archive

I've been having a funny little problem. Let me first ask which version of WMP you are using. I've just d/l the latest, and everytime I try to burn a CD in iTunes, WMP pops up and the whole operation freezes. It seems as though there is some sort of conflict between the two. Although the idea of Microsoft and Apple battling it out on my PC is amusing, I don't have the patience for it. Right now I am trying to find something other than iTunes which can read those files and burn a CD, hopefully without complication. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
-MC

> everytime I try to burn a CD in iTunes, WMP pops up and the whole operation freezes

Have you got your PC configured to play CDs in WMP on insertion? Maybe when iTunes creates a recognisable CD, Windows tries to play it in WMP.

Jeff, we unlike so many here, actually understand your point and sympathize about the fact that you have had to deal with sooo many brainless idiots that can't understand simple reasoning. You handled them all very well!!

To follow up on the same problem, I am trying to convert my AAC files to any format my iRiver will support. Neither iTunes nor dbPowerAmp supports the conversion from AAC to MP3. Any suggestions on a program that does?

Thanks, Amy and Nick. :)

BAS: Sorry, don't know. I've stopped ripping to AAC because of this, although I do prefer it. I need something my MPIO will play, which is either WMA or MP3.

Not to interrupt the masses of geekdom here who insist on bringing everything down to the endlessly exhausting Mac vs PC debate...that debate is as '97 as people using 128 encoded MP3s. Shit, head's-up here comes the flamebags...

No really, how about some of you lazy format espousing bastards actually do some serious tests in various formats with various musical genres and various encodings to actually let us know what SOUNDS GOOD. These are after all audio formats and frankly most of what I've heard about AAC/mp4 is that it doesn't cut the mustard. Here's one of the only real-world comparison tests I can find: http://www.xciv.org/~meta/audio-shootout/

If all you blowhards think the latest and greatest is also the best, then why don't you put up or shut the hell up - prove it. As far as I can tell, the main emphasis of Jeff's original discussion is the loss of audio quality. The primary function of this new format hasn't been to increase audio quality, it has been to find a secure format so "the Man" can control music distribution once more, therefore despite a +1 over mp3, i doubt there is much of a audio quality increase especially one that can't already be achieved. But btw, the new one also isn't supported on older Mac OS's either, hmm i'm sure Apple's not just using it to force more suckers ahem, users to upgrade hardware and software. The sizes certainly haven't improved much so you're dealing with the same amount of bits, just rearranged. There's not suddenly that much more magic in your pants geekwads.

Clearly, quality has been all downhill since vinyl succumbed to Sony's boss' love of opera music, so where is the line currently?! Let's see some more real world tests comparing just how low we can go and whether or not we're there yet.

My piss in the pot:

Having used MP3's for years, a LAME encoded MP3 at 192 or 224 (depending on the type of music) will be indistinguishable to your ears on a high-end home stereo system from the original CD - try it yourself - set them both up playing at the same time through the CD & AUX channels of your stereo and have a friend switch the output channel between the 2 and see if you can tell correctly which is which.
If you would like to DJ or use the MP3s on a club or professional system you would need at least 256 or 320. These rates however begin to defeat the purpose since the file sizes are getting large (when considering a large collection) and you are probably better off keeping the original CD format.


now back to the next 5 morons repeating the same damn posts that have been repeated by their brethren above ad nauseum - "itunes DOES encode MP3s", "AAC is so great my dick is 3 inches longer" waa, waa, waa...asshats...

ive heard you're mean to dogz too. whats with that?

Just because you're a mindless tool who made a wrong choice when initally encoding tunes does not spare you from the grief you have brought upon yourself.

I have 18000 songs that I spent the time ripping before portable players were in vogue, and you know what? I went ahead with MP3 encoding.
Know why?

Portability

Big fucking deal if iTMS uses AAC. The DRM is the reason. I'll admit, I have a pod, and I have to decide what goes on it. I also buy the occasional track trom iTMS, and if I need to, I'll burn it to CDRW, and re-rip it to MP3.

Instead of lambasting everybody for pointing out your own incompetencies, why not eat crow, and admit that what you have done is wrong and fundamentally stupid.

And if that doesn't work, try sticking your head up you ass, and then jump really hard, and maybe you'll disappear.

Dick...

Thanks, Phil. Next time you're in Chicago, drop me an email and we'll go for a beer. You sound like a fun guy.

I've been reading forever trying to find a way to convert the stuff I imported with iTunes. I went to the trouble to import stuff with iTunes thinking it would be a great way to archive stuff. I never imagined I would want an USB flash mp3/wma player. I didn't want an iPod either because I'm cheap.

Cut to the chase, I found a program that makes it easy for us cheap asses to convert stuff in the iTunes library to low bitrate wma for mobile consumption. (seriously, my headphones aren't good enough to tell the differnece)

Here's the link to it on Cnet.com
http://download.com.com/3000-2140-10277737.html?tag=lst-0-2

It's called Easy CD-DA. I can't say it's the greatest thing ever, but it's an easy way for me to move stuff to the mini player. One thing it can't do however is convert the stuff you bought from iTunes...you have to burn/import that stuff...a pain.

Well, I just posted this here, because I saw this was the longest ever running discussion about stuff iTunes, so I thought I'd help a brotha out.

I appologize if someone else already posted this, but after an hour of reading all these posts on my crappy home PC monitor I just quit.

Jeff, sorry people don't read anything you've written before bitch'n...that's just the way it is.

peace,
Shawn

I am with you Jeff, like Shawn I couldn't keep up with all the gab, but for what its worth here is my opinion. I am mostly a linux guy, but I use Microsoft for music and my mp3 player(Wintendo's). I won a bunch of music from Pepsi. They won't play on my mp3 player or they won't burn in a format that plays with my cd player. My Mp3's work great. I would not purchase I-tunes mostly cause they aren't compatible with my players. Also what would happen if I decided to re-install my OS? Would I lose them, can I save them somewere. I haven't tried yet. I haven't found a fool proof way to convert yet. I have tried 3 different suggestions on this forum alone, and none of them worked for me yet. I can play all my mp3's on anything including my truck player. That is my 2 cents worth.

I got your message Jeff.
Mike

Wow, it's amazing how heated people get over MP3 vs AAC vs OggVorbis vs Mp4. I've just used iTunes, downloaded 1 track and I'll never use it again unless and until it supports DOWNLOADS (not importing etc) but DOWNLOADS in other formats. The important thing is portability of format and how easy it is for me to do it.
I don't have an iPod and possibly never will. I have a small (512MB) MP3/WMA player and that's enough for me as I'm not a music geek, I rip in 192VBR MP3 and that suits me fine.
At the moment the apps/methods to convert M4P to MP3/WMA are too much of a pain in the arse. I'm not going to burn an iTunes playlist to CD then rip it MP3/WMA - I'll do what I did last week; go on eBay or 101CD and purchase that shiny circle of plastic and rip straight from that.
And don't bother flaming the 'board audiogeeks, iPod Geeks or xxx is the best format-geeks as I won't be coming back to read your pissy posts weasels
;)

iTunes is nice but not compatible. I would say it's time for Microsoft to step it up a notch. I mean, I like windows media player but it is not as organized as iTunes. Audio quality, by the way, is slightly better on Windows Media Player, and WMP supports surround sound better than iTunes. So... iTunes needsto improve compatibility and Microsoft needs to improve Windows Media Player.

Take a look at this blog:

http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=45456

Looks like you can play iTunes files in WMP without re-ripping. As for playing your WMA files in iTunes - no help there sorry! At least you can still make use of the iTunes service without any further degradation of the audio file in order to play in WMP.

Surely most mp3 players also play mp4 also...?

We only "helped" to develop certain aspects of AAC. AAC or "HE AAC" uses a technique called Spectral Band Replication(SBR), which provides room for higher levels of compression without loss of sound quality. HE AAC encodes high-frequency sounds with SBR and low frequencies with regular AAC. Other groups in the development pool are, Coding Technologies, AT&T, Sony, Philips, NEC and the Fraunhofer Institute, one of the co-developers of MP3.

It should be noted that audio file compression started as way to crunch music files down to more affordable spaces. Remember, RAM used to be very expensive, and Hard Drives had well under 1GB of space.

One final note... AAC(MP4) encodes at 128Kbs and lower will not "convert" well to other formats no matter what you do. My advice is to only encode at 256Kbs or above. Also, remember all compression formats are lossy, but at higher bit rates, humans hearing is not perceptive enough to tell the difference.

Finally Dolby Labs is always looking to improve audio quality in many formats, even WMA.

Jeff, use which ever software and hardware that pleases you and suits your needs. Personally, I use iTunes and a creative MuVo.

J.C.

Dolby Labs

Come to our site sometime.

http://dolbylabs.com/

OK.I am new to the  computer.How do I burn wmv file foremats,that are stored on my computer.?These are music videos/uncut. All I want to do ,is to be able to play these in my cd player,in my 98 blazer.It's just a plain CD Player..and is it  possible to burn these wmv formats to play in a like a 3-4 yr old Playstation,so a person can view the video as well??? these are stored on my  computer on my quickcam..Thanks...Mike..

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