~mkw

Hear Hear

Look it really is simple. Microsoft broke the law, and contrary to popular american belief, EVERYONE is subject to the law of the country where they are operating. Microsoft's claim that they did not know the law is non-sense, they seemed to know it when they were hounding Lindows all across Europe.

The statement that Europe is becoming more socialst, that's just plain non-sense.... besides I believe it was American companies that started the ball rolling anyway was it not ? (Real).

Was MS found *guilty* by the DOJ or not? (nevermind MS settled rather than be fined).
Does that mean the US' laws (to make sure monopolies don't abuse their position) suck?
Does that mean the US is being socialist and protectionist?

The statement that Europe is becoming more socialst, that's just plain non-sense.... besides I believe it was American companies that started the ball rolling anyway was it not ?


Yes, it was American companies who started this process, but no one in the states advocated punishing MSFT for something they might do, only what they have done. I dont have a problem with Europe saying that MSFT broke the law and should pay, but Frans' assertion that the problem is what they might do in the future is simply repulsive.

...And, as for Europe and socialism; take a look at Spain. They actually just elected a socialist government; and while the parties of Chirac and Schroeder may not go by the name 'Socialist party'; they are in fact as much so as the extreme left of the democratic party in America.

Dumky, we punished MSFT for what they did, not what they might do.

From coverage over here it appears that Microsoft were asked if they would avoid int the future the behaviour (illegal) that they had just exhibited. They refused to agree to that, but they were punished for what they did do as well as the fact that they essentially said they would do it again.

Let's face it Microsoft like to play it fast and loose when it comes to the laws of any country, they had to be expecting their bluff to be called eventually. Maybe it's just that their local senator can't enforce Microsoft's will outside of the US.

Also I believe the fine is nowhere near as high as it could have been.

Just because Spain has elected a socialist government that does not make Europe a socialist state. I would be interested on where your idea of the 'middle' lies. If the democratic party if to the right of Chirac and Schroeder I can only imagine how right-wing the other republicans are....

On a side note, I am constantly amazed at how americans struggle with the concept of socialism as if it is the work of the devil. I guess the McCarthy witch-hunt had more of an effect on the american social structure that it at first appears !

As usual Americans don't understand what's happens outside their country :-)
Socialist for them means communists, Fidel and tutti frutti. Hey move on, Europe is more govern at center right than left wing.
Blair is from a socialist party after all and in reality you can't find more right man than this bloke.
socialism is dead, and the next to follow is surely capitalism. I don't call that bad news.

I agree with the fast and loose statement in part and I was actually shocked the fine was so low. I was expecting about 10 times that.

There is a wing of the democratic party in the US that believes in hard-line socialist principles, that government and call solve all the ills of man and that government is the highest form of authority.

There is also something in America called the Libertarian party for which I am fond of; Libertarians beliefs are simple - freedom freedom freedom. Man cannot truly be free is he lives under the strong arm of government. The governance of man is in direct opposition to the yearning of the human spirit for liberty and freedom. For example; restricting gay marriage is an attack on the freedom of the people. Telling a business how they can operate is an attack on the freedom of the proprietors which are not some abstract concept called “big business” but merely people working together to provide a good or service.

Libertarians sound like a party I might vote for ... if I were american ;)

"Maybe Microsoft should not sell their products in Europe?"

Right... that will really benefit MS in the future, not. You'll make Europe into a Linux stronghold then ;)

Psst. We already are a Linux stronghold ... it's just a secret we don't tell Americans so they don't get upset :P

Paschal,

For you to state that Europe is more center right that left shows that you do not understand the simplest concept when making political judgments - that all things are relative.

Your statement that socialism is dead ignores the very statement you made that Blair is a socialist and the obvious political earthquake in Spain.

Furthermore the idea that capitalism will follow is so incredibly unfathomable; it shows a vast misunderstanding on your part. If capitalism where to go away, so in part would the essence of freedom pioneered by America. Remember, that the idea of political and economic freedom coupled together in one society in order to avail true freedom is a new concept. Man has always lived under an authoritarian rule without true freedom save for the past 200+ years; if you think it be good news that this go away - I feel sorry for you.

I hope MS is responsible enough to 1) fight this until the fine is significantly reduced or thrown out all together, and 2) if the fine is imposed, turn it on the source: impose a surcharge on MS products sold in EU countries to cover this blatent "forced profit-sharing". As a non-EU MS customer, I don't like the idea of having to pay more for an MS product (which is what will happen if the fine stays in place) just to line the pockets of EU's cronies.

A N European,

Be careful about that statement, Libertarians are considered to be extreme conservatives in America, they support abolishing income taxes, the elimination of social security and the social welfare programs. They advocate the repeal of the income tax and stood against the war in Iraq (which was and still is a popular decision in most of America).

The EU has a strict law in this. MS broke it. As I said in the comments: It is fine what MS did (integrate a tool into the OS that is on 90+% of the desktops out there to make their media formats the defacto standard) as long as it is within the law of the EU.

Now, you can try to tell me that I don't get american politics but frankly I don't care. You see, the law in the EU is the law of the EU. MS broke it, and thus should be fined/punished. It's that simple.

You misread my statement btw: I tried to explain that the tool WMP is used to establish WMA and friends as defacto standards for streaming media. ANd that already happens. It IS already too late for that.

I'm really stunned by the lack of knowledge about EU politics. This has absolutely nothing to do with socialism. The EU fines every year big corporations with big fines. GE for 250mil EURO, Nintendo for I believe 190mil EURO etc. It's simply because there is a law and MS broke it.

That you don't agree with that, so be it. You're not a citizen of the EU, so you can't decide on this, as we can't decide what the US bombs tomorrow.

Frans,
I am not even sure you read what I wrote.

If MS broke EU law then they should pay the penalty; I whole heartedly agree, but your statement was clear that you felt the problem was not so much what they did but what they might do in the future! EU politics aside; that is wrong no matter how you slice it.

Your right, I am not a citizen of the EU; so I don’t have a say in your politics - but that never stopped a bunch of French and German citizens from running out and protesting our liberation of 25 million Iraqis! (How quickly they forget that just a generation ago we did the same for them.) Why should it stop me from complaining about the policies enacted by the EU which directly affect MSFT and thus indirectly infringe on my personal livelihood.

Keith, you have all right to complain :) You and I both live in a free part of the world.

My point was not what they MIGHT do in the future, but what will happen for sure in the future because of what they've done in the PAST. That's the point. You introduced 'might', which is not the case.

A few years back, Real was the defacto standard. Now it's WMA. It's not what 'might' happen, because it already happened. It's just about waiting till media streamed from the internet is more important than TV, and if you listen to Bill Gates good enough, you know he's convinced of it too. :)

but that never stopped a bunch of French and German citizens from running out and protesting our liberation of 25 million Iraqis! (How quickly they forget that just a generation ago we did the same for them.)

Jesus wept why does EVERYTHING have to revolve around war with you guys? Really? A whole country full of warmongers.

I'm a brit and like most brits I despise the fact that our PM took us to war without the consent of the majority, I've not met anyone who thinks that it was right to fight - and no, it doesn't make us like the US more, it makes us like it less. And like most, you assume that Iraqs problems are all solved, they aren't and they won't be for a long time to come. Sure Saddam was a nasty bad man, but he'll just be replaced by one of the nasty bad men he managed to surpress with the american dollars and weapons you've been sending him for decades. Sheesh.

And America didn't win WW2. We did it together, and that includes Canadians, Australians, Indians, New Zealanders and many more countries than I am able to recall.

So please, get over it. The american empire will be just like all rest, it'll only survive so long.

Frans, I love your insight into software, but it's impossible to comprehend your point here. It's difficult to intelligently discuss something when the opposing party *knows* "what will happen for sure in the future".

With regard to your comment that the EU fines many large companies, it's interesting that all of your examples (GE, Nintendo, and of course Microsoft) are based in non-European countries. As Robert Levy was quoted in USAToday, this is "a corporate welfare program for market losers", namely European companies that are unable to compete on technology.

A N European,

RE: The bastard American Imperialists

IF I hear one more European cry about the American empire I think I will puke.

America is the first country in the history of the world to liberate a people from the bonds of war only to leave that land in the hands of the people. American blood has been spilled all across this globe to free the people who in many cases attack us; after destroying our enemies militarily we then do the unjust and terrible, empirical act of spending our treasure to rebuild the country. Why? So we can turn it into a US state and rule over our empire…? NO, so we can hand it back to the people.

Germany, Japan, Italy, and Great Britain were all lifted out of the hellish bondages of war by the billions of American dollars and billions more in forgiven debt. Are any of these countries even paying interest on its debts to the USA?

When distant lands are hit by earthquakes it is we Americans who immediately send help, who came to our aid the last time we had a major quake in southern California? Who sent money and rescuers to help the plains states and Texas when tornadoes wiped out entire communities?

Americans are the most generous nation in the history of the world, we have more power and military might than any other ‘empire’ in history, yet we our land grab and empirical domain does not extend beyond our borders. In our short history we have grown into previously unoccupied land, we did this by savage war – NO, check that – we bought the land!

There is an American empire that we are spreading throughout the world, forcing our ideals on vicious dictators and despots everywhere – it is simple: Freedom and liberty.

Pretty vicious concepts, damn that American empire.

Everything does not revolve around war, save for the fact that when I walk in Lower Manhattan there is a big freaking whole in the ground to remind me of one Tuesday morning when the world changed. Americans are more anti-war than you would imagine - we are the ones who are dying, do you think we do so gleefully?

It is not about oil or expanding the empire - as the conspirators would like you to believe, it is all about freedom.

"With regard to your comment that the EU fines many large companies, it's interesting that all of your examples (GE, Nintendo, and of course Microsoft) are based in non-European countries. As Robert Levy was quoted in USAToday, this is "a corporate welfare program for market losers", namely European companies that are unable to compete on technology."
Which is of course bullshit. Ever used a DVD or CD? :)

Philips invented them. And f.e also the cassette tape and deck. There are many european technology firms who are very succesful.

Btw, Bayer was also fined with 280+ million euro for anti-competitive actions. Bayer is a german drug and chemical firm.

True capitalism is dead. There are so many governmental intrusions into the "free market" that it has lost its meaning.

But let me point this out.

You argue that they shouldn't punish MSFT for what they may do.

You then support attacking Iraq because of what they may do.

Which one is it? Or does your stance not have a rational basis in reality?

JG,

Who said I supported the liberation of Iraq? Furthermore, it can be argued that Iraq was not invaded on the basis of what they might do but in fact based on what they did not do; the UN itself authorized the such action after citing resolutions 661,678,686,687,688,707,715,986,1284 and 1382.

The reality is, they broke the cease fire, they were violating their agreements and we stood up and told the UN that in this world, our 'word' will mean something. Today no one doubts the words of the United States - ask Ghadafi.

"Americans are the most generous nation in the history of the world"

Well maybe 'history of the world is a little strong'. I'm not anti-american, I've meant plenty of americans, and as individuals I've liked them all - what's not to like.

It's when the US government gets involved that I am unhappy, and that they feed the US all this bull about the American Dream and that they live in a democratic state - and people buy it .. but I don't want to turn this into an anti-american tirade (although I may be a little late - sorry). Iraq is a different kettle of fish altogether, you know if I were to want to attack someone and all of my friends told me it wasn't legal .. I'd listen to my friends, unless of course I really considered them all beneath my concern ....

Keith: if you can list these UN resolutions against Iraq, also list the resolutions against Israel. That list is even longer. THey haven't obeyed 1.

Furthermore, they didn't break the cease fire nor did they break the resolutions: they didn't have WMD's, so how could they violate the resolutions?

JG has a *very* good point.

Keith, those are the reasons the administration are giving now. Not the reasons given originally.

When our President talked about Iraq, WMD was always mentioned. The administration gave innumerable briefs to congress about them (one even claiming that Saddam could have rented a freighter and be parked off the East coast even as we speak.)

I quite clearly remember the President talking about how big a threat Iraq was, and that being the reason we are going in.

If we got to war based on the number of UN resolutions being broken, on humanitarian reasons of "liberating the people", or for the suspected possession of WMD, then there are a LOT of countries that qualify, and some more so than Iraq.

And now we have the President making *jokes* about how he can't find those pesky WMD, and basically saying "Well, I never technically said that was the reason." I suspect the constant mention of WMD and the non-existant made up link to Osama/9-11 is why so many people supported the war.

I still hear people constantly say this war was about 9-11 (though I don't think you have.) WTF. Iraq had nothing to do with that.

Ask your average war supporter why the war was good. Only the more intelligent ones have switched to the story you're giving now. The rest almost always say "Wooo, Waaaarr", "That's for nine one one", or "They had the nuke."


Okay, anyway, to get back on topic. Companies are not punished for being successful. They get punished for breaking the law, having a history for breaking the law, and indicating that the intend to continue doing so.

MS has a very clear vision of the future, and they are very very ruthless in establishing that. I do think they cross the line whenever it is conveniant (they doctored evidence in their US trial for instance), and can have incredibly dirty business practices. I really wish they would let their tech compete on its merits instead of putting a stranglehold on everyone to shove it down people's throats. I think most of the time they would still end up on top, but then they wouldn't rack up so much bad karma.

Sometimes I wonder, do politics create extremists? =/ I've never seen a EU vs US discussion, but I can tell they are useless.

The US does good things, the US does bad things, the EU does good things, the EU does bad things. We all do. The EU sends aid to earthquakes, just like the US, those are the good things, try to get over all the bad things

I agree with Microsoft. Why should Microsoft be fined for giving to the people what the people want? EU bureucrats are like parasites on the free market.

People claiming that MS broked the law and thus phunished are really lying. Probably they are one of the slashdot monkies. The software industry is not like other industries, we still do not know what a dominant player can do or can not do.

EU made this decision mostly for political reasons, not based on the law. The courts may or may not overturn this ruling, but EU set up a path where Microsoft may decide not to offer their products anymore.

The interesting question here is that, by limiting Microsoft, will EU pave the way for Linux, and what will happen if Microsoft loses its dominant position because of this ruling. In that case, clearly Microsoft can't sue EU, so it will be interesting how Microsoft will react to the limitations in the future.

If you read the ruling, you also realize that EU doesn't know what it is doing. For example, nobody knows exactly how the committee, who is responsible for observing Microsoft and its windows source code, will make its decisions. I mean, except slashdot monkeys, who can claim that they know exactly which technology can go into the OS and which can not. Can we take paintbrush out of Windows? You have to really make shaky decisions there. Also who is going to pay for the effort for these limitations. I think European customers should pay for it. If Microsoft raises the prices in the rest of the world, I would really get pissed off.