Memi.Reflection

The biggest flaw in .Net is that it is too much beginner oriented. It's designed to be easy to use, not to write efficient applications. The way Asp.Net "separates" code from presentation is a good example of that. If you compare it to real MVC frameworks in Java (like Struts) you see that Asp.Net is just a toy. .Net might do better for desktop applications but there I have to agree with Sun, desktop is becoming less and less important, even Microsoft is moving away (with their push into web services and SOA).

I'm completely disagree with you. This is a typical Java way of thinking: if it's easy - it's flawed. It's true that the .NET is much easier to use than Java, but I can't see why that's bad.
The ASP.NET does not suppose to be an MVC framework. It suppose (and succeed) to be an event driven, stateful web interface environment. You can use this environment in an MVC framework, or in any other framework you would like. In fact, there are some articles scattered in the net that explains how ASP.NET can be utilized to create an efficient MVC framework.
According to your argument, the JSF marks the end of the MVC, from the same reasons. Is that so?
According to the "desktop is becoming less and less important", it is far from truth. If you are following the latest updates from MS or the Java community, you can see a growing tendency toward desktop systems. With .NET, you'll be able to deploy windows-based apps easily with Click-Once on whidbey, while with Java you can use the Java Web Start. BTW, it has nothing to do with SOA or Web Services - desktop applications can communicate with services as well as web applications.

Memi, you're making way too many assumptions. I've only used Java on a single, about 1,000 lines project. The vast majority of my work is done with Microsoft's technologies. Yet you assume I have the typical Java way of thinking... It's actually a C/C++ way of thinking about VB based development. But I agree with the point - if it's easy then it's flawed. Not because it's easy but because it allows people who have absolutely no clue to write code. And it puts too much restriction on people who actually know what they're doing, single form page model is a huge problem. It makes the development simple for newbies who have no idea how a web client works but it restricts advanced development.

As for what Asp.Net is - http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/en-us/dnaspp/html/aspnet-aspnet-j2ee-struts.asp. It states that "ASP.NET implements MVC using the Page Controller pattern. contrast to the Struts implementation, which allows complete application-level control, the Page Controller pattern applies the controller at the level of individual pages."

I haven't looked at JSF, as I said I don't use Java with the exception of a single small project. But I can't imagine how it's going to stop existing frameworks from working. All I've been commeting on is Microsoft talking about how .Net allows you to separate code from presentation on the web, that's simply not true. The fact that you have two source files doesn't mean anything since they're still tied together, acting as a single unit.

I disagree about the "if it's easy - it's flawed" axiom. I do agree that newbies will make more architectural mistakes if they can to, but the same thing goes for hard core languages, such as C++. I'm sure you've seen some horrible code snippets written in C++, even though it's far from being an "easy language".
As to the ASP.NET being MVC framework, I think that MS has a big misconception about what MVC is. In a real MVC framework, there is one, and only one, controller. When there is controller for every page, there is no MVC. Therefore, ASP.NET != MVC.
The code - presentation seperation exists in .NET in the level that when creating ASP.NET page, the developer can write the code behind file, while the graphic designer can create the graphics in the aspx page itself, without disturbing each other. No doubt they are tied together, and in order to acheive full seperation in the app level, you would have to use seperate code blocks for the logics.

.NET sucks it's a fact. It maybe suitable for Desktop aplications running in VERY powerful desktops, but Microshit need's one more decade to make a SO suitable to run serious client-server applications.

Orkut is doing a good job showing how bad .NET is. Im my personal opinion if you are a seriou Web Developer, you don't do nothing is MS. That's M$ way: a lot of marketing but just a weak product under a lot of makeup

Lol on your strange thinking , weak product say who ??

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