Another way of looking at this

Jamie A comments to an article on Channel Register:

Here's a slightly less technical way of looking at the issue:

Microsoft essentially have 2 editions of a program. The first edition speaks English (User Interface) to the user, but in behind can speak French (COM) to other components.

The second edition also speaks English and French, but can also speak Russian (VSIP - Visual Studio Integration Programme).

Microsoft intends that your components speak Russian in order to extend Visual Studio. Their VSIP license agreement also states that you can only try to speak Russian to the second edition of the software. Attempting to speak Russian to the first edition is not allowed (even if it does speak the language).

Rather than try and speak Russian, Jamie has been using French. He has asked Visual Studio if it talks a certain dialect (COM interface), and it has said "oui". So he uses that dialect to talk to Visual Studio in order to do what he needs.

The main problem from Microsoft's point of view is that they didn't intend for anyone to use that dialect of French in order to talk to Visual Studio. They only expected Russian to be used. However, there's nothing that explicitly states this. Microsoft even has public notes on the French dialect.

Therefore, Jamie thinks he's in the right because Microsoft have not said that speaking French is forbidden. Microsoft sees it the other way. And the way things are going, it looks like the decision is going to come from a judge or jury.

There will be some French lessons in a follow up post.

68 Comments

  • It seems what might be required to fulfill the Express user's needs is a version of TD that speaks French. Then the 'risk' of extending the Express SKU, can be taken by 3rd party 'translators'.

    What an embarrassing mess Microsoft! Welcome to the community.

    Keep the faith Jamie, there's a lot of us out here rooting for you.

  • Keep it up Jamie! the Netherlands are rooting for you as well (for as far as my narrow view of the world can tell)
    I am shocked with the way in which this is handled.

  • Like you can see all over the Web

    YOU ALREADY WIN THE BATTLE !!

    "If you remove now the support for Express Editions and you sue M$ for the lost that they make to you, you will win more"

    REMOVE THE EXPRESS SUPPORT AND MAKE THEM HAPPY !! WE KNOW THAT YOU ARE THE RIGHT HERE, AND WE DONT NEED A JURY !!

    ie. All the community is with you now and if you remove the Express support all the people need to understand you, you do your best, and is better to come back to the development and not to the jury, you will eventualy win the battle (mostly because you are in EU) but maybe you need 2 years of battle

    You are the winner and all knows who is the evil that make you remove the express editions with FUD, so the battle with M$ gets better if you remove the support

    I hope you the best, you are our Heroe =)

    Marcos Meli

  • Well said, Jamie. Enough is enough. I hope someone at Microsoft can take a better view of this before whomever is making these decisions tarnishes the company image even further. IMHO, Microsoft has a bigger battle to fight (to win developers) and I hope it doesn't lose sight of that goal.

    If you do a great product (which I consider VS to be) and support a great community, profits will inevitably be there!

    You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

    Thanks for trying to help them to remember that!

  • [Any Way] of looking at this...

    I am sorry this is happenning to you.

    Personally, as an advocate and growing evangelist of all open-source software, I am running away from M$ as fast as I can.

    Until I actually make the escape, the TestDriven.net add-in is priceless and I really couldn't code .NET without it.

    Thank you.

  • A question: clearly, one of the expected outcomes of the forthcoming court battle would be Microsoft tightening their EULA to explicitly outlaw French.

    If that's where we're likely to end up, would one possible settlement be for Microsoft to agree to drop the case and tighten up their EULA language, if Jamie drops the Express support?

  • Any chance that Microsoft will agree to binding arbitration, it is cheaper for all sides.

  • Hi Jamie,

    MS has just shown once again how poorly they care for the developers or for the community around their products.

    With all the talent and drive you have, you could provide serious valuable contributions to Free and Open Source software, and thus enable Development to be even better on these platforms.

    Not only would your contributions be respected and recognized, but you would be able to commercialize your work if you should choose to do so.

    Here's to a swift resolution of this current mess with Microsoft, so that you can think this over.

    Best,

    Josh

  • I still don't believe that this is standard Microsoft corporate policy.

    The ant nest is huge. In my view it's mostly good too!

    Looking at Jason's personal site you can see that he has no problem disobeying rules and publicising it. (He has pictures of a Private Property sign, then pictures of trespassing on that property. Hana beach, I think it's called!!) So his pursuit of something that appears not even to be forbidden looks out of character.

    Maybe his boss is riding him.

    Maybe that's why he's silent in the meeting.

    Maybe that's why his correspondence is so rude, factually incorrect and abrasive. (It's not his words, he doesn't agree, but he was forced to send it??)

  • Don't this just want to make you stop developing for any MS software altogether?

  • @kj:

    In absolute honesty, no it doesn't - I won't cut off my nose to spite my face.

    Lets look at some facts though; MS started off being very Civil - Jamie was the one who didn't reply to mails and was incommunicado (well that's what I see reading the email pages) and Jamie was the one who's abusing the fact that the eula didn't specifically disallow something. MS have turned nasty but I don't think they weren't provoked or entirely unjustified in this matter.

    When it comes down to it - I'm a programmer and I do what I do for money - MS release Express to (ultimately) attract people to its main product and thereby earn money - it's not unfair that they ask that people don't give their free product features that would stop their users wanting to upgrade.

    That's what this is about, license or eula bedamned. And if that's all this is about; well I'm sorry but I side with Ms on this.

  • DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS!

  • I keep seeing people going on about it being a commercial app and everything. Whilst this is true, I would like to point out that Jamie releases a version for "trial users, students or open source developers" which is completely free to download. I imagine it's to these users whom Express support is most useful.

    Hence in these situations, Jamie isn't profiting from this any more than Microsoft is.

  • So the catch-all phrase says you can only speak Russian. That is the technical limitation, perhaps it's better to comply.

    What's wrong with that? It's not like people can't get hold of other version of VS, and if they like it they'll pay for both VS and TestDriven.

    It win-win. BTW I am commenting from Redmond, but I am not a MS employee.

  • So, it's like this:

    MS offers a version of their product for free under certain conditions. They offer another versions to paying customers.

    TestDriven.Net is also offered for free under certain conditions. It's also available for paying customers.

    Kinda makes me think you should also be able to understand their point somewhat. You want professional developers to pay for your product. MS wants that as well.

    I can understand that open-source advocates don't want to pay for software that they can get for free somewhere else. But nobody is forcing them to use MS products. But if you decide to use the stuff, a hole in their license shouldn't give you the right to violate the actual intent of the license.

    When I first browsed through the description of their product versions this was pretty clear to me. And I'm guessing it was clear to you as well.

    Nevertheless, I think TestDriven.Net is a cool product and shouldn't die because of lawyers. You should concentrate on continuing to develop this and maybe make some money with it. I know it's not nice to give in on this, but I honestly think it's not worth the fight.

    Good luck anyway

  • But then make a version for SharpDevelop or any other free/OSS IDE. Then promote it so MS can trash their Express line.

  • Jamie, I have read this account with a sort of morbid fascination. I must say I admire your tenacity, but I would not like to be in your position and I would urge you to consider this:

    1. Have a care that the fight is not more important than the cause.

    2. It is easy for onlookers to encourage you into a position of jepoardy; they have nothing at stake. Whatever decision you come to, do not take it out of any sense of duty to the community, for they will likely not come to your aid if you lose. Consider your own position and what you stand to lose or gain.

    I hope you end up with a positive outcome.
    --Tim Long, TiGra Networks.

  • Jamie,

    I feel for you man. Install Linux and use your talents to build software for the open source community. Your efforts will then be appreciated.

    Regards,Jamie

  • Just saw this story linked from OSnews. This is one reason why I chose F/OSS as a career path instead of the MS route. My advice is to not fight MS. You are in the right as far as I can see, but they have the lawyers from hell on their side. Its not worth losing everything over. Better to cut your loss and move on to something they cant sue you over.

  • How can we help you Jamie?

  • "In Dan Fernandez's blog, he describes in technical detail what your software does. (blogs.msdn.com/.../testdriven-net-and-express-technical-information.aspx)"

    I can understand why Dan wrote what he did as a damage limitation exercise. However the post is sensationalist and inaccurate. I'm holding off responding to it directly because I'm in the middle of talks with Microsoft. Hopefully this messy situation can be resolved amicably!

  • Can't you just change your licence agreement so that people who use your software are NOT ALLOWED to use it on the express-version, but don't remove the support for it.
    Then it's up to the user to "use the software correctly". :)

  • You are disingenous in the extreme.
    You are violating the EULA.

    Nobody is going to shed a tear for you when MS take you to the cleaners.

  • So if someone cracks your software and disrtibutes the cracked version, so that you dont get money for your labors, that is ok with you ?

    That is what you are doing Jamie.
    You are cracking MS's software.

    That is immoral.
    And probably illegal.

  • Funny that you are selling your product for $10,050 for the enterprise version and $95 for the single user version. You happy to crack someone elses' product to make money ? You are just a glorified warez boy.

  • Categorical Imperative:

    If testdriven .net is allowed to extend express, so is every other third party plugin maker.

    If it is ok for testdriven .net to ignore the intent of the express eula, i can ignore testdriven .net's eula intent.

    Check yourself before you Wreck yourself.

  • It amazes me how some people from the Microsoft world see it as a crime or at least unethical to charge for an extension to a free tool. There are hundreds of commercial extensions for the free Java IDEs Eclipes and Netbeans, and everyone seems to be happy with this. What is the problem with the Microsoft world?

  • It seems you broke the spirit of the EULA though not the letter of the agreement. This, in my mind, means you have complied with the agreement. In the UK, the letter of the law stands above the spirit and the UK society mostly believes in this.

    Microsoft, in its various anti-trust and other legal action againt MS, has adhered to the letter of any ruling against them though not always the spirit. This is because it makes good business sense.

    The answer therefore, is probably for MS to make their EULA more precise and less all encompassing. Most people (including MS, me and the rest of the known world) would hate to see longer more complex eula's. This leaves a problem.

    How to solve the problem... buy/bribe/support Jamie instead of hassling him. Break whatever software component he is leveraging in the next release. Legal action against legitimate developers by microsoft just looks bad. Marketing and PR anyone...?

    Give Jamie a free memebership to xxx or fly him to yyy or buy two years worth of his software and ask him to drop the feature.

    I guessed MS tried to hint at this earlier on but they could have been a bit more explicit about it.

    I support Jamie for putting this out here and for standing up for himself. Microsoft used some pretty tough passive aggressive behaviour against him and I'm sure a lot of other people would have crumbled. Similarly, I understand where MS are coming from and what they want to achieve. They want to feel free to put tools out there and for them to not be subverted for other uses. I just feel that this is a situation that could be better managed by them.

    Less legal more arbitration...

  • I plan to put up a cracked ( worked around ) version of Jamie's enterprise version of TestDriven.NET.

    Is that ok ?
    After all, I am just doing what Jamie is.
    Ignoring the EULA of the software vendor.

    Feels differenent when the shoe is on the other foot.

  • I understand both parties and their point of views and i agree with some of the previous posts. This is mainly hurting the Microsoft image. I have been working as a .NET professional (software architect) since it was asp+.
    The way that MS does business these days with lawsuits and going after developers etc im sad to say but i can't support that. And i am begining to feel shame and dislike because i have promoted MS as the only sane choise.
    As i am progressing toward it heaven i am sorry to say, but MS you have lost my support!!!

    Jamie, i feel for you! Maby you are wrong, maby right, it really doesn't matter because you are up against corporate gain and that makes you wrong by default. Hope that MS makes a sane decision and put your talent to use instead of to war.

    Mike X

  • Thera .L seems to be utterly incapable of understanding the meaning of what is going on here.

    "Ignoring the EULA of the software vendor."
    Well no, you see, he isn't.

    You see, if my EULA says "You cant do x, by doing y." and I go ahead and do x, but I do it via z, Im not breaking the EULA, Im not even ignoring it. I am quite happily adhering to the exact legal requirements of the EULA.

    Ignoring the EULA would be to do do x, via y.

    Im sorry, the original article was expressed in terms of languages. You know, English, French, Russian. Ive just tried to explain it again, in terms of x, y and z. Im not really sure how many more ways there are of explaining it?

    Please refrain from displaying your ignorance. Feel free to disagree with what Jamie is doing, but not without understanding what is really going on here.

  • Thera .L you do not appear to have any understanding of what is going on here. Jamie wrote an extension using the IDE's official API. He didn't use any functions not deliberately provided by MS to developers.

    They (and you) accuse him of breaching the EULA while stoutly refusing to identify which part of the EULA he has breached. Do you not see how this makes you look stupid?


  • After reading all of this I realized how many just ignore the facts. SharpDevelop 2.1, recently released (open source IDE for .NET 2.0) is extensible, and one of the add-ins provided is Unit Testing. Second of all in march M$ announced that is going to provide MSTest into Pro SKU of Visual Studio Orcas. So this leaves the market of testdriven.net only for Standard Edition of next VS.NET. So Jamie re-added suport for Express only after the market for its own product shrinked ... I think it's now obvious why: publicity.

  • @John Austin - Thanks for the suggestions. You're right this isn't as one sided as a lot of people seem to think. I have managed to find some excellent legal counsel that I have complete confidence in.

  • Jamie,

    I hope you win!

    As a .Net programmer I think MS is way out of line with their position. As others have said if they gave you the API and you used it, their bad not yours!

    Please keep updating the community as to the state of your situation. I know it sounds a bit voyeuristic, but the world is very interested to know the out come.

  • I get to your site through an article on "The Register".

    Man you are a good developer don't loose your time in this Microsoft product!
    With your knowledge you can help to other comunity projects like Eclipse (www.eclispe.org), Squeak (www.squeak.org) or Croquet (www.opencroquet.org).

    IMHO This is a complete waste of time! You are promoting they product.. and they sues you.. this is full of non-sense

  • So, they got to you, huh?


  • Depends on the lawyer, I have dealt with lawyers that are actually very honest and upfront. I know a number of them that have told their clients, that yes they have a claim -- and their will likely be a reasonable settlement -- but it will be a long process so -- after the cost of the lawyer fees -- the plaintiff would not end up with very much left over. Basically telling the client that it is worth it to them, but probably not to the one that is making the claim.

    Generalizations are very bad... even with lawyers.

  • Jamie,

    I'll second what Anthony said - I hope you win and please keep updating the community. I stopped by to see if there had been any updates on the situation.

    As far as I can see, the .NET community is behind you all the way, myself included.

    Best of luck.

    Final rant: as a .NET developer who manages a .NET shop, this whole thing makes me less and less likely to use Microsoft products and technologies in the future. At home, I'm a linux user and our office is a heavily mixed environment where we believe in using the right tool for the right job. We, like many companies out there, are open minded and it really hurts to see the vendors whose software we're supporting turn against their own users like this.

  • Jamie,

    Put up the PayPal button man... If it doesn't go to court or when you'll win you can throw a party.. ;)

    You'll win!!!
    /Jonas

  • I agree with Jonas. Put up a paypal donation button and I, and many many other im sure, will support you :)

  • I wonder what the status of this is? It has been a full months since the last post I saw. :s I'm pulling for ya.

  • 1. Microsoft killed him, or hid him away.
    2. He made up the whole saga to get tips/publicity/product purchases but ran into writer's block
    3. Microsoft threatened him, and he backed down
    Others?

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