Bad hiring practices, maybe ... but maybe it's a good hiring process

http://weblogs.asp.net/jmoon/archive/2005/07/08/418534.aspx

Maybe so, but...

Part of the interview process isn't figuring out if you can solve all these little problems, but how you deal with the situation. IMHO, this shows was a clear indicator of someone that might not be a good fit. The point of an interview isn't to sell a person on the job but to determine if the candidate is a fit for the job. Once fit it determined then you can do the selling.

We use these techniques here at Telligent. The point isn't to solve the silly little problems but to figure out 'how' people solve problems and to give individuals the opportuntity to collaborate together during the interview to see how they work with one another. If you work with someone through these mini-problems during an interview and exit thinking, "wow, here is someone that I wouldn't work well with" that usually equals 'no-hire'.

For us, anyone that comes in with the attitude that they don't need to be interviewed because of their credentials, background, or industry experience is automatically a no-hire. Personally I could care less if someone has an MBA, doctorate, invented the Internet, 4.0 GPA, blah, blah, blah. I care more about is this person going to fit in our culture and with the way we like to work then about what their skills and abilities are, i.e. aptitude vs. ability.

In other words, in this case it sounds like the problem wasn't with the interview process but with the candidate.

Published Friday, July 08, 2005 11:26 AM by Rob Howard

Comments

# re: Bad hiring practices, maybe ... but maybe it's a good hiring process

Friday, July 08, 2005 12:55 PM by M. Keith Warren
I gave my candidates very similar tests and was often happy to see someone stop and admit they did nt know something and ask for help; that is a big deal because often people, especially in development are quite egotistical and high minded about their personal intelligence which is often a barrier for saying "I dont know", when the business is about getting things done and moving a project forard I would rather have a guy willing to say I dont know after 15 minutes than one who spends hours trying to figure it out because he is embarrassed to ask for help.

# re: Bad hiring practices, maybe ... but maybe it's a good hiring process

Friday, July 08, 2005 12:56 PM by Karl
Rob:
How do you guys feel about people who interview back? Does it automatically sound off sounding cocky, like the late 90s "what can you do for me?" type attitude? Or, if done properly, does it show that the individual knows what he's looking for?

I've worked at a couple places that ask a bunch of question, and end up running pretty bad shops. Is it wrong to ask about developement standards, process and tools? Can you ask to speak to their current technical lead and ask question about architecture (ie, do you have SqlCommand inyour button's click event) and stuff?

karl

# re: Bad hiring practices, maybe ... but maybe it's a good hiring process

Friday, July 08, 2005 4:15 PM by Dan Suceava
I agree that a person's credentials don't mean that he/she should not be interviewed properly, and I agree with your (and Microsoft's) interviewing process. But I understand the problem as being that when the company is soliciting a person for a job, the company should approach it differently by asking 'hey, are you interested' and showing off all the benefits of working there, rather than going right into the interview process. The company already wants this person for his/her skills, so it should start by trying to make that person want to take a job with the company. It's the attitude of thinking that 'of course he wants a job with us' that makes it wrong.

# re: Bad hiring practices, maybe ... but maybe it's a good hiring process

Friday, July 08, 2005 7:46 PM by Paul
You mean Microsoft is going to make me write code? Uh-oh

I get more nervous in interviews than on first dates - spill coffee all over my unpressed shirt, go off on tangents about AI (I do that at interviews and first dates :) )

Next interview I'm going to get filmed, that would make quite the viral piece.

People who get nervous in an interview, and code something bad, well, there's alot to be said about that. The best interviews would go on for a couple of days - I wouldn't get married to someone I met on a first date! I also wouldn't hire someone who had just one interview. I also wouldn't hire someone that wouldn't try some coding problem or answer some pop quiz questions because of an overinflated ego. Egos are the dumbest thing about this industry.

# re: Bad hiring practices, maybe ... but maybe it's a good hiring process

Saturday, July 09, 2005 2:56 PM by Russ
I think the source blog entry that your post came from is really disturbing. Going to 10 years or school proves nothing except that learned what was taught long enough to pass the test. Strangely enough, another thing that seems to happen quite often is that those who finally DO get a PHD believe they're the hottest ticket in town. Arrogance takes right over.

I'm not trying to say that college or degrees are completely worthless, but I do think that many times people have FAR too much faith in their worth. I've met several people who sign their emails

John Smith
MCSD, MCSE, MCP, MCDBA, MCT

and can't solve simple problems that aren't text-book based.

I believe that person who was invited to interview at Microsoft should have done his research, learn about the company, learn about the benefits, etc. BEFORE accepting the invitation. Instead, apparently he blindly went to interview and was astonished he wasn't treated like (pardon my french) "hot shit". That is PRECISELY the type of person I'll end an interview with immediately.

# re: Bad hiring practices, maybe ... but maybe it's a good hiring process

Saturday, July 09, 2005 3:39 PM by Rob Conery
I couldn't agree with you more Rob. In fact I hired a guy who was 4 months from his PhD (not in comp sci, but a related field) thinking that he could fill a perfect niche in our company. I couldn't have been more wrong. The problem? He couldn't finish anything. I should have figured that one out since he didn't have his PhD yet :).

When I went and interviewed with Avanade a few years back, i went through 4 interviews, each of them run by a VERY arrogant person who peppered me with some very challenging questions. At the end they apologized for the challenge, and stated that they wanted to see how I would perform under "extreme" circumstances. Let's face it, every company has some of "those" people - seeing how well you handle yourself when challenged by "those" people is perfectly viable.

To me, this PhD guy who walked from MS is a clown for thinking MS should just accept him and his PhD. I have learned the hard way that school, attitude, and work ethic are completely perpendicular axes.

As for nervous in interviews, try sitting in a management meeting with some VPs of a Fortune 500 who are having a tribal chest-thumping match, shredding you and your solution. Calmly defending yourself and your solution (not to mention your client) is a very rare and learned ability. Nerves must be controllable and that is the entire point.

Who solicits whom is really beside the point. The only thing that matters is how well that person will fit.

# re: Bad hiring practices, maybe ... but maybe it's a good hiring process

Sunday, July 10, 2005 12:35 PM by Jeff
Get serious, Rob. These "tests" are almost never about seeing how the candidate handles problem solving or human interaction. As Ian puts it, it is nearly always a chest-thumping experience for the interviewer. As I mentioned in my post (http://weblogs.asp.net/jeff/archive/2005/07/05/417979.aspx), it's one thing to ask about big-picture relevant things, but don't sit there and ask me about something I use perhaps once a year that I could easily find in the documentation.

# re: Bad hiring practices, maybe ... but maybe it's a good hiring process

Sunday, July 10, 2005 12:43 PM by Rob Howard
> these "tests" are almost never about seeing how the
> candidate handles problem solving or human interaction.

No, I disagree. I'm sure they can be this, but then you have a case of a bad interviewer.

> don't sit there and ask me about something I use perhaps
> once a year that I could easily find in the documentation.

That is the whole point. When I'm interviewing someone I want to find out how they solve the problems. Do they ask questions about the problem, do they try a number of different approaches or do they freeze.

Like it or not, these are good and proven interview techniques. Typically an hour is all you get with a candidate. I usually like to spend that hour probing and working with people to solve problems (depending upon how they approach the problem).

Furthermore, if someone is arrogant enough to be insulted by an interview such as this, how would you expect them to respond to say a customer when that customer has some really simple problem -- just blow them off?

# re: Bad hiring practices, maybe ... but maybe it's a good hiring process

Tuesday, July 12, 2005 5:45 AM by Damien Guard
It's a nice idea that you work through problems to see how you get on.

Most interviewees are surely going to be nervous as hell... ever tried working with somebody who's nervous? Those that aren't nervous are probably those ego types....

How does it pan out at Telligent?

[)amien

# re: Bad hiring practices, maybe ... but maybe it's a good hiring process

Tuesday, July 12, 2005 2:04 PM by Jay
Here's my $.02 worth on interviewing. I'm with a small consulting company, so there is a very good chance that I will be working closely with everyone I interview.

First, a college degree tells me that they are probably teachable. Secondly, I don't put a lot of weight in certifications. I know too many people with certifications that can "cram" for tests well, but two weeks later would fail the exams miserably. I'll probably have a lot of people disagree with me about certifications, but that is my experience.

What I am usually trying to determine in the interview is how they approach problems and if they would be a good personality fit. I'll ask a few technical questions to test some basic competency and make sure they haven'y lied on their resume. If I ask them to write any code I'm not as concerned about syntactic perfection as I am about whether they immediately started writing the code or whether they took time to analyze the problem and get more information if needed. I may be hoping for either of the above approaches depending upon the problem at hand.

I know most people are nervous in interviews (as am I) and take that into consideration. I've only interviewed about 40 people for 10 or so positions. Of those positions I've made 1 bad hiring decision using this process. I hired someone that looked great on paper and actually interviewed very well, but was almost impossible to motivate. While technically strong, he never produced results.

# re: Bad hiring practices, maybe ... but maybe it's a good hiring process

Wednesday, July 13, 2005 12:47 AM by Phillip Jacobs
I wouldn't hire someone who came to an interview with attitude. Rob has nailed this one! If the guy with the doctorate was hot s&#t then he could come in with some respect, ask his questions, answer theirs, and no matter how beneath him they were he'd earn their respect with his humility and knowledge.

No wait... That'll never happen! <grin>

# re: Bad hiring practices, maybe ... but maybe it's a good hiring process

Wednesday, July 13, 2005 1:21 AM by Erik Porter
Thanks for posting this, Rob. It's really great to hear your reasoning behind interviewing like this and I totally agree (especially with the aptitude vs. ability).

It is really unfortunate when a piece of paper is put before proven ability to think and get things done. I recently interviewed with a company who thought I was great, had all the skills and experience they were looking for and were impressed with my reasoning and ability to solve problems. I didn't get the job though because I do not have a college degree. I think it's better off that way anyway, because any company that works like that isn't for me anyway.

I'd imagine a lot of what you talk about comes from your experience at Microsoft. Unfortunately, I wish I could agree they work like that (or maybe you know they don't always). I've interviewed there twice and each time have gotten a no-hire with the same answer: "We think you would be a great fit at Microsoft, but not for this particular job because of your lack of experience in the particular area of this job". aptitude vs. ability :(

# re: Bad hiring practices, maybe ... but maybe it's a good hiring process

Wednesday, July 13, 2005 10:38 PM by Rob Conery
This is a great thread! It reminds me of a guy I interviewed who came at me with a response like Jeff's above - basically a "you can't be serious about this- i don't memorize everything, i problem-solve". I was about to wish him well when he took over the interview and basically said "here's what I can do for you" and went on a spiel about solving problems etc.

I was very impressed. To me, that was thinking on your feet and spinning a bad situation to your favor. The only way I saw this behavior was by challenging him hard. It has backfired a number of times, and i had to pass on people that had absolutely stellar resumes. My reasoning is always that if you put these guys in front of a client, what will they do? At my last company I let every new hire know that they will face clients from day one. That's the business, and no developer should be ignorant of the needs of the client; they come first always, not code, not neat ideas or best practices.

# re: Bad hiring practices, maybe ... but maybe it's a good hiring process

Friday, July 15, 2005 4:21 AM by can't say
A Ph.D doesnt mean shit. I've hired and fired several Computer Science Ph.Ds from USC and other top schools because they SUCKED and did not perform as well as others that were college dropouts to say the least.

# re: Bad hiring practices, maybe ... but maybe it's a good hiring process

Monday, July 24, 2006 12:48 AM by cookbook

As far as ego is concerned, it should never be too big on either side of the table. It's critical to remember an interview is an opportunity for professional assessment, not to be arrogant and demeaning. I was impressed how some interviewers assessed my character in famous corporations through carefully structured "what if" scenarios, I could tell they did their fair share of homework. Unfortunately, not all are like that. I still remember the most offensive, demeaning, closed minded and unprofessional interviewer I came across in my entire career, he had enough ego to fill a whole stadium (btw he works at ... Telligent,  but I'll give the other interviewers there the credit - they were just fine). It's important to remind interviewers that resorting to a rude tone and abusive language is not part of a good hiring process, it's part of a bad attitude and an environment that somehow allows it to happen.