I don't blame you for your POV, you're an american, with different news channels, different communication, different aspects you think are 'right' and 'wrong'.
However, you seem to blame me for my POV as a left-wing European. You don't seem to understand that there might be a second story behind what you think is 'reality'. Because I told you what was told us here yesterday about Reagan (through various newschannels, mind you) and what I remembered from him (as I'm already old enough to remember him as a president) I seem to be a very negative person in your eyes :)
If we'll ever meet (and I hope it will be some day at an MVP summit or something), you'll learn I'm a very positive guy actually :)
That aside, I hope you'll understand that what you think is 'good' isn't always someone elses definition of 'good', as that someone else has other priorities set for what's good and bad. That's also why your country has different parties to vote for, it's that simple.
Don't say the other person is in-dark pessimistic and is the most negative person on the planet. That other person just has another opinion, another POV on the matter. And, if I may say so, I _can_ put arguments on the table for everything I say, especially about what I said about Objectspaces and for example about your former president. :)
But it's up to you of course :). However, if your argument about me being rude/negative is what I said about reagan, then I'd politely ask you to realize that there might be different sides to the story you think is 'true'.
Oh and Robert, the last paragraph I wrote in my 1st reply is about the human Reagan and his suffering against Alzheimer. No-one should go through that disaster, as it is horrible to find out you have it.
Every president has made mistakes. But he was responsible for the end of the cold war. He forged relationships with the world's leaders. He was a person who restored optimism to a world that, at the time, didn't have much hope.
I never said left-wing European. And you don't know where I get my information. I don't just watch the news and parrot what they say. I'm a student of history, and I think he ranks with Churchill and FDR and Kennedy as one of the 20th Century's greatest leaders. And, by the way, the only leader in the history of the world to win a war without firing a shot.
And besides all that, his domestic work revolutionized politics in the US. His vision of smaller government is now the framework for the Republican party. His defense spending may have grown, and the government may not have shrunk much, but it WAS a time of war.... much like the times today.
Look, you're entitled to your own opinion. As for me, Mikhail Gorbechev is a man I greatly respect. He says that the Cold War would not have ended without Reagan's help, and for that, I feel that I owe him a great deal of thanks. And you should too. Otherwise you'd still be behind an iron curtain... or the Berlin Wall.
As to your positive nature... I'm not the only one that says you come across as a negative person. Maybe you should reflect as to why people think that, instead of just saying that I'm wrong. You say that you're a positive person (and I hope we do meet, cause I remain open-minded about you). If writing is a window unto the soul, then why does your writing not accurately reflect you?
"I would think ending the cold war and bringing down the Berlin wall, leading to the eventual reunification of Germany, would be enough for one man. "
I think that is a bit too much credit. Eastern Germany did fall on its own and Russia didn't do a thing due to Gorbatsov
It's funny how Americans think we lived in fear for decades here in Europe due to the Iron curtain. I visited it once, it wasn't a pleasant site, but fear? no.
"I never said left-wing European. And you don't know where I get my information. I don't just watch the news and parrot what they say. I'm a student of history, and I think he ranks with Churchill and FDR and Kennedy as one of the 20th Century's greatest leaders. And, by the way, the only leader in the history of the world to win a war without firing a shot. "
I said 'left wing' because I am (even the 'right wing' politicians here are more liberal than the most liberal democrat in the US)
He fought several wars btw, but not by US troops but by US guns and 'advisors' in your own 'backyard'. I don't think he ranks higher than Gandhi for example, not everything that happens in the world is AngloAmerican oriented.
"And besides all that, his domestic work revolutionized politics in the US. His vision of smaller government is now the framework for the Republican party. His defense spending may have grown, and the government may not have shrunk much, but it WAS a time of war.... much like the times today. "
TIme of war? Do you realize you in the US apparently live in a time of war almost every time? Only under Clinton you didn't. He didn't achieve a smaller government btw, nor did Bush in his administration, so 'framework' is a bit too farfetched to say the least. About that war thingy... we didn't nor don't feel /see that era as a time of war. In fact, if we weren't a US puppet state we wouldn't have had nuclear bombs on our soil in that era.
"Look, you're entitled to your own opinion. As for me, Mikhail Gorbechev is a man I greatly respect. He says that the Cold War would not have ended without Reagan's help, and for that, I feel that I owe him a great deal of thanks. And you should too. Otherwise you'd still be behind an iron curtain... or the Berlin Wall. "
Ever been to Europe, Robert? Western Europe wasn't behind a curtain, eastern germany was. The rest of eastern europe wasn't behind an iron curtain as there were between western and eastern germany, however there was a border with patrols.
I thank Gorbatsov that he had the vision to loosen the grip on his people, especially in the eastern europe states. He didn't interviene in eastern germany when the government fell, due to glasnost and peristroika. However I never felt that an achievement of 'Reagan' but an achievement of the eastern german people. THEY freed themselves, not Reagan.
It's that what perhaps annoys me: americans think they are the only ones who make things happen or are vital for a process and think what they do is good and what others do is only good if it matches what americans do. In a lot of cases that's simply not true.
"I'm not the only one that says you come across as a negative person. Maybe you should reflect as to why people think that, instead of just saying that I'm wrong. You say that you're a positive person (and I hope we do meet, cause I remain open-minded about you). If writing is a window unto the soul, then why does your writing not accurately reflect you?"
The person in that objectspaces thread said I insult people who have questions about O/R mapping (look it up). I asked for an example. No-one can give such an example because it's not true. Thomas insults people on a regular basis, that's not me, but Thomas. If people see us as 1-2, I can't help that.
All I do is showing some light on the other side of the story. Often people find that 'negative', but that's shortsighted naivity. Showing someone another POV on the matter isn't negative, it's just that: showing another POV on the matter. In the end you as a reader can only become better, because you know more sides of the story and can form a better opinion on your own. Like with Michael Moore's movies. Obviously they're created to tell a predefined message, no doubt about that. The irony is though: the people in the movie aren't acting, they're not saying words which are written in a script, they're real people and the situations are real. The director's cutting technique creates teh context, but the actions are real. Now, some people say it's negative blabla. However, you can also say: "the filmed situations/scenes are real scenes", so what you see is real stuff. Some truth must be in it. Instead of closing your eyes for the pieces of truth (I'm not talking about the obvious message of the director) you can form a better overall picture of what really happened.
That some people don't WANT TO hear that, I understand. If these people call me negative, I can only laugh about their naivity, sorry.
Great. I'm gonna thank him anyways.
being from west europe myself I find myself tending to agree with Frans. One thing Frans, there's no point writing a whole essay to try and convince someone of something, I learnt long ago, no matter where you're from you can't change 'em - let 'em be, its easier for everyone. :-/
Well, I never said anything about living in fear, you just put words in my mouth.
In regards to differing points of view. I like em. I'm glad Frans takes the time to type out his viewpoint. Mine differs from his. But see, I'm constantly taking in information from outside sources to formulate my views. I have my own opinions about things, and it's tough to make drastic changes to them, but you'll notice that my positions change slightly as I take new information in.
In regards to Frans, I'm sorry he didn't like the guy. I feel that he made the world a safer place. I feel that he was a great guy, and he had a great sense of humor. He was a very human leader. Other world leaders from his time are pauding praise on him. I highly doubt that the praise is unfounded. Without him and his work with the Soviets, we might be in a nuclear winter. If you don't feel that he did that much for you... not much I can do about that. He brought hope back to America, and showed how far optimism will get you.
And PS: I'm not neive.
Matt and Frans, I think you expressed well what the vast of majority people in Europe think. As Matt said it is really not worth discussing as it is clear in Europe that our impression of US presidents is quite different from the US. We tend to like leaders, who understand the policy details hold regular unscripted press conferences, have social concerns and try to follow a balanced approach in foreign policy. It is just different in the USA.
> I think that is a bit too much credit. Eastern Germany did fall on its own and Russia didn't do a thing due to Gorbatsov
Thats fair. I shouldn't have implied he did it single handedly. Do I think it would have happened without him? No.
> It's funny how Americans think we lived in fear for decades here in Europe due to the Iron curtain. I visited it once, it wasn't a pleasant site, but fear? no.
Of course (1) I'm not American and (2) I said not one word about fear either.
Since you bring up the question of fear, how do you explain people leaping out of windows, braving minefields, etc. to get to West Berlin? How do you explain the construction of the Berlin wall in the first place?
I have to agree with Robert that I'm glad you've taken the time to state your point of view. Too often those who choose to exercise their free speech and express an opinion are harrassed for it. I don't agree with your position, but I am glad you chose to share it.