Non MVPs at the MVP summit - looks bad, smells bad

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Published Sunday, April 11, 2004 11:55 PM by RoyOsherove
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Sunday, April 11, 2004 2:23 PM by TrackBack

# The Firm bends some rules, and Roy isn't too happy about it...

Sunday, April 11, 2004 8:21 PM by G. Andrew Duthie

# re: Non MVPs at the MVP summit - looks bad, smells bad

If being an MVP were merely a popularity contest, you'd be one by now.

I don't know the whole story behind Rory getting invited, but I can tell you this...the MVP summit (or at least parts of it) is not strictly limited to MVPs. There are parts where press are invited (and given his position with .NET Rocks, Rory counts there), and there are other exceptions that are made.

But the most important point is that the MVP Summit (and in fact the MVP program itself) is Microsoft's. If they want to invite non-MVPs to the summit, it's their decision to make...they're footing the bill. No one lost out because of Rory's presence, and I know a number of people whose experience was enriched by his being there. I understand where you're coming from, but I just don't see any benefit to anyone in engaging in this kind of "what's Microsoft thinking" discussion. You're absolutely right that it makes you look envious, it probably will make Rory feel worse (when I would argue that he has absolutely nothing to feel bad about in the first place), and it does other MVPs like Frans who missed the summit no good whatsoever. IMO, it would be best to let stuff like this go.

Sunday, April 11, 2004 8:45 PM by Roy Osherove

# re: Non MVPs at the MVP summit - looks bad, smells bad

"they want to invite non-MVPs to the summit, it's their decision to make...they're footing the bill"
Well, Gee thanks! Microsoft is getting from the MVP summit no less than what it is giving. The summit is about sharing - its not MS helping the community, is more like MS and the community help each other. If the ground rules are not respected at one side, why should the other respect them? Could I give myself an exception and go there just because I felt I deserve to? no. The forces are not even. Hence, since the community MS hosts has to stick by MS rules, it would only be appropriate that MS, as the maker of these rules, Will uphold them, or no respect for them or any joy of actually being an MVP will be achieved.

"and I know a number of people whose experience was enriched by his being there"
Like I said, he's a great guy. I know plenty of guys who would have been great to talk to with great stories. Yet they are strangely not there.

"it probably will make Rory feel worse "
It shouldn't. This isn't about him. It's about how MS handles the event.

"and it does other MVPs like Frans who missed the summit no good whatsoever"
If they felt the same than this post just became more relevant because MS should know that there are unhappy MVPs out there.
If they don't feel the same I'd love to hear why.
It does do good by raising this issue in public. Conversation leads to improvement.
What good is a government without opposition?
Sunday, April 11, 2004 9:19 PM by Rory

# re: Non MVPs at the MVP summit - looks bad, smells bad

Roy -

"I’m going to ask the Microsoft community leaders a question and I bet I’m not the only one who was asking himself that: 'What the f**k??.'"

The one thing I'd like to say in defense of MS is that there doesn't seem to be an MVP category for people like me, and that might be why I was allowed to go to the summit without actually being an MVP.

Someone on my site suggested that there ought to be an evangelism MVP award. I totally agree, but it doesn't currently exist. Maybe my presence at the summit was an indication that some people inside of MS think that it *should* exist.

However, take all of this with a grain of salt. I certainly don't want to try to speak for anyone at MS, and I don't know their thoughts on the matter. This is just a guess.

It makes some sense, though. Microsoft, in terms of the MVP program anyway, is *very* product/technology focused. The people who are getting the awards are the ones who are, for example, answering "tough" questions about Excel in forums and newsgroups. Stuff like that.

Then, take me for example: I gave up a pretty damn good income to be able to blog more and co-host .NET Rocks. As of today, I've basically netted $0 this year, and, I'm sorry to say, that's only a slight exaggeration. There really *should* be some kind of recognition of the contribution that a loud-mouthed jerk such as myself makes to the community :) I'm not saying that anybody owes me anything, but the truth is that I've chosen armchair evangelism over a six-figure income - I'm *paying* to do this. When I spoke in Hartford, and when I spoke in Boston, I paid for everything. I parted with dough for the privilege of "spreading the word." I believe in this stuff, and it's starting to cost me a pretty penny. The least I could get in return is three lousy letters: M - V - P.

For that reason, I'm glad you brought this up. It might stir up some noise of the "Maybe we need an MVP category for people like Rory" sort. There are chest beaters and horn blowers out there who, like me, have probably done a decent job of getting people interested/entertained/excited about Microsoft, but who have received less recognition than someone who knew how to get the visitor count Frontpage control working.

Anyway, all that said, I'm happy that I got to go. I don't know why I was let in, but I suspect that it's for something similar to the reasons I've presented here.

One more thing...

"Well, maybe you shouldn’t have accepted. If it made you feel uneasy, maybe you should have taken it as a sign."

There's no way I'd say "no."

I'm an atheist who believes that you only get *one* shot at life. I don't believe in an afterlife, reincarnation, or anything similar.

When the invitation came along, I looked at it from that point of view. I knew, from not being an MVP, and not knowing what would be going on in my life six months from now, that I could either take it or leave it, and possibly never see the offer again.

So, I took it :) I don't regret it at all, either. I realize that it's a little controversial, but that's never really stopped me from doing anything.
Sunday, April 11, 2004 9:32 PM by Roy Osherove

# re: Non MVPs at the MVP summit - looks bad, smells bad

Rory:
"So, I took it :) I don't regret it at all, either"
You shouldn't. You should also dismiss any feelings of guilt which you may have had (and posted about?). I would probably take the same opportunity.
I only wrote that because you seemed to feel bad about doing this.

My gripe is about bending the rules. As for an MVP: There is no Blogging MVP as well. Should there be? probably. DO I think I deserve it, sure. Was there any way I could have gotten in? no.

As for evangelism: AFAIK, you've only been at this for like 2 months at .Net Rocks? Your blog is not much different than a lot of blogs over at DotNetJunkies.com or weblogs.aspnet - people who love .Net. Oh, yours is much funnier, has comics and has been getting HIGH ratings because you're a sharp, witty clever guy. But still, I wouldn't call this pure evangelism because only at .Net Rocks I could define it as something like that.
Sunday, April 11, 2004 9:35 PM by Mike Gunderloy

# re: Non MVPs at the MVP summit - looks bad, smells bad

Beyond being product/technology focused, MVP is focused on *particular* products/technologies. Not every product gets MVPs (and as an outsider at this point, I have no idea who decides which products rate MVPs). But I have mail here saying "If [product X] had MVPs, you would be one".

All of which just goes to emphasize the arbitrary nature of the beast. But, it's Microsoft's party, they can invite who they want to.
Sunday, April 11, 2004 9:47 PM by Rory

# re: Non MVPs at the MVP summit - looks bad, smells bad

Roy -

"As for evangelism: AFAIK, you've only been at this for like 2 months at .Net Rocks?"

I would actually say that my involvement with such things as user groups, the nerd dinners, the blog, and some forums would totally count as armchair evangelism.

It isn't "pure" as you put it, but then *good* evangelism *isn't*. It can't be. If it were pure, it would sound contrived. It would sound like marketing dreamt it up.

I personally believe that having one MS-oriented post out of every five comics/images/stories/whatever actually does *more* than if I were to make every last post about MS. The entertaining stuff is sort of like payment to the readers for listening to my opinions about tech, and it seems to work (while providing me with a hell of a lot of fun stuff to do).

But, yeah - you're right. I've only been doing .NET Rocks for a couple months now, but to count that as my only real contribution is to disregard everything I did that initially got me onboard with .NET Rocks in the first place. If I hadn't been making a lot of noise about MS tech, then Carl never would have noticed, and I never would have been on the show, which means that I wouldn't be co-hosting it right now.

Not only that, but getting on the show has done much less for my numbers than most people probably think. I've probably had a total of about a thousand referrals from things that are .NET Rocks related. The much larger chunks of traffic have come from posts about Chris Sells' XML conference, the PDC, and general opinion pieces. It's actually safe to say that most of my readers have come from Chris Sells, Box, DonXML, Spolsky, Scoble, Hanselman, ChrisA, and a few others along with some larger community sites - none of which had anything to do with .NET Rocks. The .NET Rocks thing itself has made a relatively *small* impact on my overall popularity. It's fun as hell, and a lot of people are downloading the show, but they aren't necessarily "crossing over" and reading my blog in addition to listening to the show.

So, I would argue that if my contribution to the community were to be measured in terms of .NET Rocks, then maybe I *shouldn't* have been at the summit because it's true that I haven't been doing it too long.

However, it's the roughly 200,000 words I've written on my blog that make me think otherwise.

Sorry about the tangent - I realize that this isn't the point of your post, but I felt that I was being misrepresented there.
Sunday, April 11, 2004 10:17 PM by Roy Osherove

# re: Non MVPs at the MVP summit - looks bad, smells bad

I removed my last two comments (both 1 liners)because I didn't formalize my thougts well enough.
Rory:
How is what you described any different than blogs like Darrell Norton, myself and many others? Does that mean we should all be called evangelists?
BTW: there is a General .Net MVP award.
Sunday, April 11, 2004 10:51 PM by GuyIncognito

# re: Non MVPs at the MVP summit - looks bad, smells bad

the only way this dispute can be resolved is for both parties to engage in a tickle fight wearing nothing but bras and panties

the winner gets the coveted mvp lapel pin

there should be a celebrity referee...
Sunday, April 11, 2004 11:09 PM by Susan Bradley

# re: Non MVPs at the MVP summit - looks bad, smells bad

Roy, I shouldn't get in the middle of this... but.. hey... I'm a woman and we do. I saw that post of Rory's and went.... 'oh dear'.

I am a MVP. And I came up for the weekend to welcome new MVPs and then due to work constraints I went back home and then looked for emails and blogs from those who were there. When I saw Rory's post it honestly concerned me. While we can argue that Rory belonged to be there, to be an MVP for what he has done [as we can for what YOU do, Roy] at the end of the day, Rory is not an MVP and this was supposed to be an event for MVPs only.

I don't blame Rory for saying "yes", I too just felt a little weird reading his post.

If non MVPs are invited, where do you draw the line at invitees? And who makes recommendations for who's invited.

I agree with Roy on this one. I know of deserving folk in my community. Why not invite them too?

And Andrew, the press was only there for lunch on day 2 and excluded from all other venues. If Rory signed an NDA agreement and was there the entire three days, and went to parties and what not, then he was treated as a MVP. [Seattle PI guy came in for one luncheon meeting and was escorted back out and I didn't see blog photos of him dancing anywhere ;-) http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/microsoft/archives/002559.html

It's just where do you draw the line and who's the one drawing it, that's all. If you are going to include Non-MVPs to the MVP summit, then don't call it a MVP summit.

And just a heads up.... most MVPs that I know absolutely postively will hurl at the word "Evangelist". :-) We don't get the MVP award for being an "Evangelist", we get it for helping people. For being Community leaders.

http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=fh;[LN];mvpawardintro

"MVP status is awarded to the most active online community “gurus” for their technical expertise, voluntary willingness to share their experience and commitment to helping others realize their potential within Microsoft technical communities"
Sunday, April 11, 2004 11:12 PM by Susan Bradley

# re: Non MVPs at the MVP summit - looks bad, smells bad

http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=fh;[LN];mvpawardintro

Sorry that link breaks

http://shorterlink.com/?R4533I

Try that one
Monday, April 12, 2004 12:29 AM by Edneeis

# re: Non MVPs at the MVP summit - looks bad, smells bad

"Then, take me for example: I gave up a pretty damn good income to be able to blog more and co-host .NET Rocks. As of today, I've basically netted $0 this year, and, I'm sorry to say, that's only a slight exaggeration. There really *should* be some kind of recognition of the contribution that a loud-mouthed jerk such as myself makes to the community :) I'm not saying that anybody owes me anything, but the truth is that I've chosen armchair evangelism over a six-figure income - I'm *paying* to do this. When I spoke in Hartford, and when I spoke in Boston, I paid for everything. I parted with dough for the privilege of "spreading the word." I believe in this stuff, and it's starting to cost me a pretty penny. The least I could get in return is three lousy letters: M - V - P. "

I know you said 'I'm not saying that anybody owes me anything' but you sort of are with 'The least I could get in return is three lousy letters: M - V - P.'. Also giving up money was your choice and I don't think the only reason you did it was for the betterment of the community. Now having said that I'm thankful you did make the choice.
Monday, April 12, 2004 12:57 AM by Scott

# re: Non MVPs at the MVP summit - looks bad, smells bad

If at any point someone feels that Microsoft OWES them something, I'd suggest they put in their application at Microsoft. You can start here: http://www.microsoft.com/careers/default.mspx

Monday, April 12, 2004 1:12 AM by Scott

# re: Non MVPs at the MVP summit - looks bad, smells bad

BTW, I made the "Evangelist MVP" suggestion. I'm not an MVP and I couldn't care less.

I mean, why not an MVP for .NET evangelism? They have an MVP award for XBox?! Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?! How are they a "Technical guru". "No dude, it's X-X-A THEN down.". C'mon now. "Digital Media MVP"?!

Don't try to say that making a .NET Evangelist award would sully the good name of MVP or lessen it's value. People should put an intrinsic value on the MVP award based on their knowledge of the person that gets it and what they got it for, not based on who else has it.
Monday, April 12, 2004 3:32 AM by TrackBack

# To MVP or not MVP...What is the Question?

To MVP or not MVP...What is the Question?
Monday, April 12, 2004 4:00 AM by AT

# White people only ??

I've an question - what is this MVP award about ?? Do you spend all your time in newsgroups/blogs/seminars/writing books to be simply recognised as MVP ??

I think nope.

What is this MVP Summit about ? To talk and exchange ideas or simply sit and watch each other and consume drinks ?

Will you accept one more intelligent guy in your closed circle ?? Or you will wait while somebody from Microsoft award him badge with M.V.P. letters ? What's wrong if Microsoft already decided to allow him to come without magic letters ?

Just for a record. Let's go away from Rory person. What in case if poor average-level coder will apper on MVP summit without valid badge ? Will you kill him to not allow steal any information ? Or you will share all the info you have so he will benefit.

So ? What is this MVP program about ?
Closed circle with ability to get a free MSDN Universal and several bucks on MSMarket store OR award to most valuable persons in sharing technical information ?


P.S> Just for a record as fight-back.
I preffer some "MVP"s (thanks God - only a few, most are trully respectable people) forget about Microsoft newsgroups existance. Why ? Becouse they usualy give useless and wrong answers on hard questions. They are able to answer only on simple questions like a Microsoft Corp. URL or latest service pack version etc...
They do this to be "recognised" as top newsgroup posters and keep their MVP status. I preffer they keep silence if they do not know answer instead of spending my and other people time to prove/check their answer is lame.
Monday, April 12, 2004 4:44 AM by Yosi Taguri

# re: Non MVPs at the MVP summit - looks bad, smells bad

All I can say is
"Just you Wait" ;)
Monday, April 12, 2004 4:49 AM by TrackBack

# Dear Roy...

Monday, April 12, 2004 5:19 AM by Pete Beech

# re: Non MVPs at the MVP summit - looks bad, smells bad

AT, I'll agree with that - certain MVPs answers are absolute rubbish, and totally false. I've just started answering questions on the newsgroups, and when I do answer, I try to stick at it if I can, until I can solve the problem - and I doubt this will ever get recognised because I will never have the same volume of different distinct responses - but I find it more helpful to the community, and more rewarding for me, then some of these 'MVP's one line meaningless 'answers'. (And I must stress this is only some MVPs - the majority are very good)
Monday, April 12, 2004 5:39 AM by Frans Bouma

# re: Non MVPs at the MVP summit - looks bad, smells bad

"Frans Bouma received his MVP a bit too late to attend, so he didn’t. And guess what, I think Frans’ being there would have made a lot more sense. I wonder what he felt reading Rory’s post on this."
I haven't read his post nor the comments yet, however I look at it this way: there will always be MVP's who have more knowledge than other MVP's. If I look at myself, I really don't think I have the same amount of knowledge about C# as for example Jon Skeet.

Because there are not a lot of MVP's out there, it's a great honour to get the award (I think it is :)). If every 1 out of 3 developers is an MVP, it gets a somewhat degraded value, but I don't think we'll ever reach that amount of MVP's. Because of the great value of the award, I'm not upset that I wasn't in Seattle, there will be hopefully a next time next year. It's the award that matters: the recognition that what a person has done for others is valuable for those others.

About non-MVP's being at the summit: well, nice for Rory that he could get in, but being at a summit doesn't make him an MVP :), just like it is not required to be an MVP to be incredibly valuable for other people. You know you help a lot of people with your blog and tools, Roy. I think that's what matters :)
Monday, April 12, 2004 6:22 AM by Frans Bouma

# re: Non MVPs at the MVP summit - looks bad, smells bad

"Then, take me for example: I gave up a pretty damn good income to be able to blog more and co-host .NET Rocks. As of today, I've basically netted $0 this year, and, I'm sorry to say, that's only a slight exaggeration. There really *should* be some kind of recognition of the contribution that a loud-mouthed jerk such as myself makes to the community :)"
Suuurree :) You gave up a 6 figure income (in italian lire's? ;)) to spread 'the word' and pay every expense from your own pocket.

Well, as you practise 'armchair evangelism' as you call it, perhaps MS could provide a nice, confortable seat for you :)
Monday, April 12, 2004 7:25 AM by DonXML Demsak (donAT_NO_SPAM_donxml.com)

# re: Non MVPs at the MVP summit - looks bad, smells bad

I was hoping someone else would mention this, so that I didn't have to chime in on this ridiculous post, but Regional Directors (who do not have to be MVPs) were invited to the summit, and Rory was invited under the RD program. On the bottom of everyone's badge was their designation (MVP, Microsoft, RD) and Rory's was RD. So he was never pretending to be an MVP.

DonXML Demsak
Monday, April 12, 2004 7:39 AM by Roy Osherove

# re: Non MVPs at the MVP summit - looks bad, smells bad

Don: "ridiculous " ? when the HELL did Rory become an RD?
Monday, April 12, 2004 7:42 AM by AT

# re: Non MVPs at the MVP summit - looks bad, smells bad

DonXML: Do I missing something ?

http://www.microsoftregionaldirectors.com/Public/rdFind.aspx

Or web-site can have outdated information ?

There is no Rory.
Monday, April 12, 2004 8:53 AM by Darrell

# re: Non MVPs at the MVP summit - looks bad, smells bad

I was going to write a post, but Susan Bradley above said it best. Now for the new comments since then:

As for Rory going as an RD versus MVP, he was still accorded the full privileges of being an RD without being one. Again, where does one draw the line? Taken to its logical conclusion, tt ceases to be an MVP+RD summit and an "I know someone who can get me in" summit. Sorry, but I think that tarnishes the MVP and/or RD brand.

Now for the other side. If I was in Rory's shoes, I would have gone too. I would probably have been more discreet about it, but then digital cameras abound and someone would have made the connection sooner or later.

If I was whomever made the decision at Microsoft, I would probably not have extended the invitation. This is not a slam on Rory. I would be concerned with the perception of impropriety which is obviously in full force right now.

Should .NET (or Microsoft in general) evangelists have some sort of award? YES! But that is neither the MVP award nor the RD designation, unless the current definitions of those change. And even then, changes like this are not retroactive.
Monday, April 12, 2004 9:10 AM by Rory

# re: Non MVPs at the MVP summit - looks bad, smells bad

Frans -

"Suuurree :) You gave up a 6 figure income (in italian lire's? ;)) to spread 'the word' and pay every expense from your own pocket."

I didn't say that was *why* I did it. I just said that that's *what* I did. The distinction is important.

Right now, trying to figure out how I'm going to make rent this month, believe me: I'm questioning the intelligence of my actions.

And, no :) It was in lire...

It also wasn't the main point. It was just a detail. However, I don't really care for the implication that I'm lying, so thought I'd address it.
Monday, April 12, 2004 9:17 AM by Rory

# re: Non MVPs at the MVP summit - looks bad, smells bad

Edneeis -

"I know you said 'I'm not saying that anybody owes me anything' but you sort of are with 'The least I could get in return is three lousy letters: M - V - P.'. Also giving up money was your choice and I don't think the only reason you did it was for the betterment of the community. Now having said that I'm thankful you did make the choice."

Note that I didn't say anybody *owed* me MVP status.

And, yeah: Giving up the money *was* my choice. I never indicated otherwise, nor did I ever argue that the *only* reason for doing it was the "betterment of the community." Frankly, I'm having a good time. The communication is funner than hell, and I've had the chance to meet some freakishly interesting people. I have that defective gene that makes people want to shout their opinions out at the top of their lungs around the clock, and the blog/.NET Rocks/whatever have been really great for helping me out there.

As a 26 year old with no children and no mortgage to worry about, interesting people are, at least right now, worth more to me than a high income. I'm not going to make a choice like the one I did unless I'm going to get *something* out of it - there are no sefless acts. What I've gotten so far has been a certain amount of satisfaction. It isn't paying the bills, but I'm happier than I've been in years.
Monday, April 12, 2004 9:26 AM by donAT NOSPAMdonxml.com (DonXML Demsak)

# re: Non MVPs at the MVP summit - looks bad, smells bad

I never said Rory was an RD, I said he was invited under the RD program. There is a big difference.

We can not know all the facts, so why make a judgment based solely on the little we know. Someone high enough up in Microsoft approved bringing Rory to Redmond the week of the Summit. They authorized it, Rory decided that it was worth his time to go to Redmond, and that is good enough for me. Once you get use to the idea of NDAs (and with it, the idea that you can't know everything you want to know), you will understand that people can't always disclose all the why's and how's. Also, one of the rules of a NDA is that you are not allowed to even say that you are under a NDA. So you will not get any info out of Rory, or anyone who knows, on why he was there.
Monday, April 12, 2004 9:27 AM by Rory

# re: Non MVPs at the MVP summit - looks bad, smells bad

Darrell -

"Now for the other side. If I was in Rory's shoes, I would have gone too. I would probably have been more discreet about it, but then digital cameras abound and someone would have made the connection sooner or later."

I actually *was* very discreet about it. Eventually, though, after speaking to quite a few real MVPs, I got some honest answers: They didn't care. So, when it was all over and I was feeling "accepted," I thought I'd go ahead and blog about it. I mean, it was a great experience, and it was something I wanted to talk about. Maybe I should have kept my mouth shut - that's dawning on me now. I expected one or two emails along the lines of, "You cheapened my experience at the summit (even though I didn't know you were there)" to which I would have responded politely, but nothing like this.
Monday, April 12, 2004 9:29 AM by Rory

# re: Non MVPs at the MVP summit - looks bad, smells bad

Don -

"So you will not get any info out of Rory, or anyone who knows, on why he was there."

Especially since even *I* don't know how I got there... It was just as much a surprise to me as it was anybody else :|
Monday, April 12, 2004 9:51 AM by GuyIncognito

# re: Non MVPs at the MVP summit - looks bad, smells bad

does this mean no tickle fight?
Monday, April 12, 2004 9:57 AM by AT

# re: Non MVPs at the MVP summit - looks bad, smells bad

Rory, do not bother thinking too much about other people opinions.
There is the same number of opinions as people. Someone will cry "Why Not Me ?", others will support you. While most will simply don't care.

You did nothing wrong. Even more - I wish Microsoft invite people at events like this to increase ideas pool and make "equal opportunity" for everybody to get/share info.
This way MVP program will be able to get fresh blood. As well current MVPs will think first about people - and only then about status.

P.S> Take a look on active alpha/beta participants - they are unknown to wide community but they do big job impoving Microsoft products. Possibly impact from beta participants are bigger compared to MVPs, as they work full-time in real-world scenarios and have direct connections with Microsoft development teams.
There is NO ANY event like this one for them. They do their job silently ;o)
Monday, April 12, 2004 10:25 AM by Partially Unpartial

# re: Non MVPs at the MVP summit - looks bad, smells bad

Just a comment from a bystander who is in no way in this community (though I watch it with content, it's like a regular days of our lives-episode).

I have to say that this being my future profession (what you're al l doing) I'm a bit afraid. I thought the "programmers sphere" was a relaxed environment, free from petty envy and battles over titles, status and advantages. I guess I was wrong, it's a regular school playground (or exec-level playground.)

Meh... and I have to say I'm glad for Rorys sake. He had a good time and I haven't seen anyone actually at the event complaining yet.
Monday, April 12, 2004 10:40 AM by Roy Osherove

# re: Non MVPs at the MVP summit - looks bad, smells bad

Partially un partial: actually, at least one MVP has written a comment on this post that she was not really OK with it. And I bet there are some more who just don't want to get in the middle of this.
Monday, April 12, 2004 11:00 AM by Roy Osherove

# re: Non MVPs at the MVP summit - looks bad, smells bad

Another MVP who had a problem with this was Ted Neward:
http://www.neward.net/ted/weblog/index.jsp?date=20040412#1081759335554

And Dare Obsanjo seems to generally agree to the notion of"no no-MVPs at an MVP event" as well:

http://www.25hoursaday.com/weblog/PermaLink.aspx?guid=0860c5c6-cd2c-471b-88c1-285fd0332c42
Monday, April 12, 2004 11:08 AM by TrackBack

# Lets share and create value...with everyone...

Lets share and create value...with everyone...
Monday, April 12, 2004 11:38 AM by TrackBack

# When geeks fight...

[Note: I wanted to stay out of this, because this whole thing is just idiotic. However, since everyone seems to have a take, here's mine...] Well, once again, Roy seems to have gotten his panties in a bunch. This time,...
Monday, April 12, 2004 3:29 PM by J. Eddie Gulley

# re: Non MVPs at the MVP summit - looks bad, smells bad

What a loser. Get over yourself.
Monday, April 12, 2004 4:14 PM by Demon

# re: Non MVPs at the MVP summit - looks bad, smells bad

Should Rory have gone? Vote now:
http://vote.sparklit.com/web_poll.spark/828670
Monday, April 12, 2004 5:06 PM by Sergey

# re: Non MVPs at the MVP summit - looks bad, smells bad

First of all let me say I'm not an MVP or RD or whatever else. I do have MCSD but I got it for the sole purpose of getting a job.
This goes out to Ron and his supporters. It's amusing to read this thread, you sound like a bunch of kids fighting for some attention. What differentiate you from kids is that you don't speak your mind openly but instead try to disguise your true feelings behind senseless mumbo-jumbo and two faced arguments. Behind all that lies a true nature of your motivation – envy and fame. You try so hard to get noticed and when a guy next to you gets more attention than you all hell breaks loose. Why not just admit what you are after?
You said you respect Rori and to show your respect you argue that he is not good enough to be invited (although you cover up that fact by generalizing about MS policies)? And Rori, somehow you feel the need to defend yourself. Why? Ignore the haters and be proud, you like fame and you got a lucky break that others didn’t.
And for those who suggested creating new MVP title for evangelism and such – I also want to say: “What the f**k?” How does it fit into a concept of Most Valuable Professional? How are you going to provide a value to me? Are you going to help me when I don’t know how to solve a problem? No, you are going to attend PDC, TechEd, blogging dinner (or another social whoring event) and then blog about it. Thanks a lot in advance I’m looking forward to your invaluable help.
To Partially Unpartial: relax; most of us are not like that. Unfortunately these people are usually louder then the rest, after a while you will either join them or ignore them.
Monday, April 12, 2004 6:02 PM by Softwaremaker

# re: Non MVPs at the MVP summit - looks bad, smells bad

I am surprised and disturbed by the "noise" generated by the so-called MVPs.

MVP = Microsoft Valuable Professionals, not best .NET Coder, not best Community leader.

As with all MVP awards, they are all recognized based on intangibles. They help and contribute to the community. And they should all be so gracious to let the so called "Non-MVP" share in the enrichment everyone should so deserved.

Now, if you are gonna ask, why not everyone there, then ? This is a question only MS can answer as they are the host. Remember, we are all guests in their event and we all shld behave like one. As hosts, they can invite anyone they want and see fit and they see fit Rory should attend. If I ran that event, I would invite him too.

I am particularly disturbed by this as this strikes a parallel experience I had in my "younger" days where employers would not even look at me because I dont have a "Computer-Science" Degree. I cant even begin to tell you that so many of my "Computer-Science" peer grads are now economists, businessmen. So if they can do it, why cant a "Economics" grad like me cross over successfully ? Over these years of hard work, I have successfully moved over and am doing good at what I am doing in the IT world. I am sure you all know there are so many top-notch-blue-chip trainers, authors, consultants who are not "Computer-Science" grads but they can beat any average "Computer-Science" grad hands-down with passion and determination.

Remember, stop being so superficial, its all just an appointment. There is no need to put so much weight on it. Yeah, granted, its nice to have. Its MS way of recognizing you BUT we shouldnt use that as deadweight to impose on other people who may not have the misfortune. None of us have the right to.

This is the ticky-tacky squabble SUN Developers have with MS Developers. The vendors love them...creates the flame that fans the fire. The last thing we need is to have even internal groups fighting within the MS Developer camps, be it MSCD, MCSE, MCDBA, MVP, RD, etc etc

Just my 2c worth. Respect is what we must give everyone on this earth as their own individual with their strengths and weaknesses. No one has the right to judge anyone. Well, we try not to, anyways ;)
Monday, April 12, 2004 6:04 PM by Softwaremaker

# re: Non MVPs at the MVP summit - looks bad, smells bad

<Quote>Remember, stop being so superficial, its all just an appointment. There is no need to put so much weight on it. Yeah, granted, its nice to have. Its MS way of recognizing you BUT we shouldnt use that as deadweight to impose on other people who may not have the misfortune. None of us have the right to.<Quote>

Should be corrected

<Correct>
Remember, stop being so superficial, its all just an appointment. There is no need to put so much weight on it. Yeah, granted, its nice to have. Its MS way of recognizing you BUT we shouldnt use that as deadweight to impose on other people who may not have the FORTUNE. None of us have the right to.
</Correct>
Monday, April 12, 2004 6:06 PM by Chance Gillespie

# re: Non MVPs at the MVP summit - looks bad, smells bad

Yes, I’m getting a little emotional about this… yes I plan to crash the nearest "exclusive" Microsoft event I can find and be sure to write “MVP” across my ass before I moon the highest ranking ‘secret handshake club’ member I can find (they will be dragging my ass out of there screaming(my mouth will be screaming, not my ass))… yes I take this field seriously which is why I’m completely disgusted by your elitist attitude, and yes, you have got to be the biggest jackass I've 'virtually' encountered in this little creative community I so much adore. You’re attitude is exactly what we don’t need. I’m not special, you aren’t special, pick a random MVP out there; not special. They are people recognized for their contribution to the community (which we should all be appreciative of, yes). A community in which Rory’s contributions have been recognized, even without the sacred branding. I can’t believe I’m even writing about this man, this is ludicrous, but this kind of shit should not happen. I should not have to express my defense of a well respective community member attending a community gathering of which he has not been officially inducted simply because someone who is a part of our (notice my use of the word ‘our’.. (both intentional an appropriate)) bizarre, freaked-out class of planetary inhabitants thinks it should be an exclusive club. This shit isn’t right. My attitude? I really care about coding. I love the kind of people it breeds. You seem to be the exception to that. I think you should not be aloud to make any further comments about coding because this is an exclusive club of people who DON’T have their head up their ass and your presences bothers me. Hey, you know what, I’m wrong… it’s not really my place to say that. You are welcome here, even though you don’t want anyone else to join the party (sarcasm meter peaking)… gghhgHGGHHGGHGhghg… I’m livid to the point that I’m having trouble composing a comprehensible sentence so I should just end it here, sorry :)
Monday, April 12, 2004 6:44 PM by David Cumps

# re: Non MVPs at the MVP summit - looks bad, smells bad

And then people complain about the youth of today... *sigh*
Monday, April 12, 2004 6:51 PM by Chance Gillespie

# re: Non MVPs at the MVP summit - looks bad, smells bad

"And then people complain about the youth of today... *sigh*"

yup, I'm sure many of us (myself included) are the youth of yesterday :)
Monday, April 12, 2004 7:34 PM by Chance Gillespie

# re: Non MVPs at the MVP summit - looks bad, smells bad

"[Note: I wanted to stay out of this, because this whole thing is just idiotic. However, since everyone seems to have a take, here's mine...] Well, once again, Roy seems to have gotten his panties in a bunch. This time,..."

You know, to a certain degree, I understand why it’s idiotic. It is a bit out of hand but there really is a fundamental point to this whole uproar that is extremely important. We will continue to have the John Carmacks, Anders Hejlsbergs, Dennis Ritchie and <insert your favorite software engineering personality here> in the field but most of us amount to exactly jack shit in the grand scheme of things. What we do have is the ability to contribute what we can, however modest, and hope that it’s found useful or inspiring to current/future developers. The MVP is intended as recognition of an individuals contributions. Recognition by Microsoft for those who have contributed positively to the community. It’s a badge to be proud of but it’s not an elite club. Microsoft extending an invitation to Rory (even though he does not officially carry the tag) was an expression of that appreciation. I can’t begin to express how disgusted I am that anyone would even be the slightest bit upset that this ‘special gathering’ was somehow tainted by his presence. I have a huge amount of respect for many a person in our field, but at the same time I’m ashamed that this sort of bigotry and self righteous pride is found at every turn. The person I am going to listen to is the person who understands that he is no different that I, and I no different them him (is that grammatically correct? I speak in semicolons :) )

Point being, get off your soap box (Roy) and contribute something useful and positive to the community instead of crying that the kid you didn’t invite your birthday party is playing with your friends.
Monday, April 12, 2004 10:21 PM by Rory

# re: Non MVPs at the MVP summit - looks bad, smells bad

Chance -

"I can’t begin to express how disgusted I am that anyone would even be the slightest bit upset that this ‘special gathering’ was somehow tainted by his presence..."

Well, you didn't see me dancing during karaoke :)

All the same, thanks for the support. Today's been a crappy day, and hearing a few words in support is very nice.
Monday, April 12, 2004 10:54 PM by Chance Gillespie

# re: Non MVPs at the MVP summit - looks bad, smells bad

My third post to this. Get me to talk and you can’t get me to shut the hell up :)

I want to retract a comment from my first post. I got home today and the first thing I did was start catching up on some blogs. By the time I got through reading everything that was posted I was absolutely seething with anger. The jackass comment I made was uncalled for and out of line. I apologize for that. However, I stand by my opinions about your overall attitude towards the event (we can’t leave everything smelling all rosy. Where’s the fun in that? :) ).

This will all blow over in short order I’m sure. We can all put our heads back down and start banging out code again until the next controversy rears its head :)
Tuesday, April 13, 2004 12:09 AM by Moek Ion

# re: Non MVPs at the MVP summit - looks bad, smells bad

I dont know why anyone would want to be an MVP... Look at all the bozo's they have as ASP.Net MVP's... Only about 20% deserve it, and 80% just know someone... the whole program reeks of BS and it already has been cheapened to the point of "who the hell cares"... I mean, it is sooo well known that the program is screwed that if I was awarded MVP I wouldn't even tell anyone. The whole thing is a damn joke, and people just want the free MSDN. Thats about it...

Moek
Tuesday, April 13, 2004 12:40 AM by Scott

# re: Non MVPs at the MVP summit - looks bad, smells bad

mmmmmmmmm, free MSDN. It just rolls off the tongue doesn't it. freeeeeeeeeeeeeeee as in beer.
Tuesday, April 13, 2004 1:06 AM by Chance Gillespie

# re: Non MVPs at the MVP summit - looks bad, smells bad

Rory

"Well, you didn't see me dancing during karaoke :) "

I did check out the pictures though. Certainly looks like something I would do after I got a few drinks in me (and the lunacy would worsen as the alcohol continued to flow). If you’re ever in the Columbus/Dayton/Cincinnati OH area I’ll have to buy you a drink or 6. I’m sure with our combined shenanigans we could get kicked out of a few bars. Great fun.

Egads, that last paragraph sounds a little bit stalkers-ish doesn’t it? (you’re my friend Rory, come drink with me. You know you want to. Drink with me I said!! I know where you live Rory!! ;) ). Don’t worry, you’re not going to see me peering out from behind a building every time you walk to your car or come home and find me riffling through your underwear drawer :)

Tuesday, April 13, 2004 2:07 AM by Scott

# re: Non MVPs at the MVP summit - looks bad, smells bad

Chance and Rory sitting in a tree.

P-r-o-g-rami-n-g
Tuesday, April 13, 2004 3:02 AM by TrackBack

# Assert.AreEqual(Productivity.CurrentValue == Productivity.MinValue);

Tuesday, April 13, 2004 4:06 AM by senkwe

# re: Non MVPs at the MVP summit - looks bad, smells bad

It's good to speak ones mind, but you have to consider the consequences. Roy aren't you worried that if you now get MVP status, people are going to roll their eyes and (rightly or wrongly) think it was your whingeing that got you in? For what it's worth, you probably deserve it, but it'll be somewhat diluted by this little outburst.
Tuesday, April 13, 2004 4:17 AM by C. J.

# re: Non MVPs at the MVP summit - looks bad, smells bad


I doubt that very many MVP (who are all extremely competent professionals) really cares if MS invites people who don't have technically that coveted title. I mean what kind of insecure dweeb gets mad because MS recognizes that somebody else is also worth inviting to an event. Is any MVP's self-image so weak that they feel threatened by the MVP becoming slight (very slightly) less prestigious? If the number of non-MVPs were large (and thus tended to destroy any sense of community) then it would be a problem, but a small number of "special guests" is a problem? I just don't see it.

C. J.
Tuesday, April 13, 2004 7:51 AM by TrackBack

# MVP's and the

Tuesday, April 13, 2004 9:17 AM by AndrewSeven

# re: Non MVPs at the MVP summit - looks bad, smells bad

When it comes to MS technology, the most valuable player we have was here all last week.

He was not off at a conference, but our RD was...

Tuesday, April 13, 2004 9:26 AM by armand

# re: Non MVPs at the MVP summit - looks bad, smells bad

Last time it was "Mortal sin #2: Information hoarding" [1] where you bitched and moaned about not having access to the MVP private newsgroups and now Rory was invited to the party, he was I.N.V.I.T.E.D., and not you and again you throw your toys. At this rate even if you were considered for MVP status, i'm not sure whoever's in a position to award these title's would award one to you, your negative attitude towards the MVP program would certainly not help so I think you're shooting yourself in the foot here dude.
rory's making a positive contribution to the community in general and that was recognised, hell, i'm sure most of the mvp's that was there enjoyed having him as a GUEST.

this whole thing is stupid, you're not a mvp, so why start this whole thing in the 1st place??

[1] http://weblogs.asp.net/rosherove/archive/2004/02/06/68374.aspx

your articles are good, keep that up.
Tuesday, April 13, 2004 11:09 AM by RorySupporter

# re: Non MVPs at the MVP summit - looks bad, smells bad

Rory does more for MS than a negative bastard like you ever could Roy. Nobody likes a holier-than-thou, jealous critic. Shut up. I can't even begin to express how much you suck and should just be quiet and keep your stupid opinion to yourself. Fortunately this is a free country and you're allowed to express your opinion. So are Celine Dion fans. Doesn't mean they are not freaking retarded.

Morals of this story:
<1> You suck
<2> SHUT UP.
<3> DEAR GOD YOU SUCK.
Tuesday, April 13, 2004 10:12 PM by Dave

# re: Non MVPs at the MVP summit - looks bad, smells bad

As a recovering Linux bigot now discovering the wonders of .NET, I was almost getting used to the camaraderie and professionalism of the Microsoft developer community. Those vitriolic, anti-Microsoft open-source programmers were starting to seem like losers. I badly needed a dose of reality.

So, Roy, I want to thank you for reminding me that .NET people can be petty and childish too, just like open-source people. Your jealous whining was just the thing to remind me that, no matter where you go, every barrel has its share of bad apples.
Tuesday, April 13, 2004 10:43 PM by William Ryan

# re: Non MVPs at the MVP summit - looks bad, smells bad

This is the most out of hand thing I've ever seen. There were tons of Non MVP's at the summit, many of whom kept the beer flowing. But the part I don't get is this: I'm an MVP. I feel like I've done a good amount of work to get there. If I hosted my own party, Rory wouldn't be there b/c I don't know him at the moment and I have less money than Bill G does so I'd be hard pressed to flip the bill for him. However, I didn't host anything. I was an invitee. MS could have told me to take a hike even though I'm an MVP. There's nothing written that said MS is legally obliged to allow me to attend. As such, they can invite whoever they want. How did that Hurt me? How has that diminished the MVP program? I just don't see it.
Tuesday, April 13, 2004 11:45 PM by Roy Osherove

# re: Non MVPs at the MVP summit - looks bad, smells bad

Just letting you know that as far as I'm concerned this thing is over:
http://neopoleon.com/blog/posts/5482.aspx
I'm not going to respond on this thread anymore, I've made my thoughts pretty clear.
Friday, April 23, 2004 9:11 AM by Guardian 777

# re: Non MVPs at the MVP summit - looks bad, smells bad

Well, I went as well, and I'm certainly not an MVP or press. I didn't hear anyone kicking up a stink about me.
What's the big deal?
Friday, May 21, 2004 4:52 AM by TrackBack

# re: T - 11

Saturday, October 11, 2008 1:25 AM by Random Thoughts of Jorriss

# MVP's and the

MVP's and the

Sunday, October 26, 2008 11:03 AM by Technical Thoughts of Jorriss

# MVP's and the

MVP's and the

Sunday, October 26, 2008 12:04 PM by Twitter Mirror

# RoyOsherove : ah memories http://weblogs.asp.net/rosh...

RoyOsherove : ah memories http://weblogs.asp.net/rosh...