ISerializable - Roy Osherove's Blog

good post.

notice most of these "stars" are trainers, speakers, evangelists (from the marketing dept.). yawn.

could not agree more !

Out of hand link doesn't work for me...?

What am I missing?

sorry. fixed the link.

thank you!

Don Box is the one to blame for starting this culture. COM boxers, COM condoms, SOAP presentation in a TUB.

Look at Scoble's blog, more and more marketing than opinions. Now these peoples are getting paid for doing this.

Right on. And most of this hero-worshiping love-fest is focused on things that aren't even going to be used by real companies for many, many years. If only MS (and the .NET community) would put the same effort (blogging or whatever) towards the technologies that their real customers are using....not just the customers that exist to support these technologies.

Balu -

"Don Box is the one to blame for starting this culture."

For what? For making things interesting?

Keep in mind that everybody has the option to:

1) NOT go to the dinner
2) NOT go to the conventions
3) NOT pay attention to the fun
4) NOT take part in any of "this"
5) Go back to coding in a vacuum

When I was growing up, programming was something that you did in your basement behind closed doors. You pictured pretentious people with white lab coats going over long strings of ticker-tape, trying to track down "that bug in the mainframe."

I was living with this notion of the tech world until a little over a year ago when I saw Chris Chris Sells give a presentation on CAS at a local user group. For those who have messed with it, CAS is just painful, but Chris managed to make it fun by making it engaging. It was *so* much more effective as a means of instruction than just walking into a room with a long stick and pointing at a few diagrams on a white/chalk board. I walked away from that meeting thinking, "*That's* what I want to do."

It was a choice. I *chose* to involve myself with this crowd. There are still *tons* of coders out there who don't know anything about blogs/"influencers"/Don Box, and they're perfectly happy. If you aren't happy, then you always have the *choice* to join them.

I think it's fabulous that in our line of work we have the option of having a bit of fun while doing what we like to do. How many other jobs are there out there that offer the same opportunity?

What Scott's doing, and what, as you say, Don Box is to blame for beginning, is just having a bit of fun.

Maybe it *was* a little over the top, but that's all right. He's not hurting anybody, and the whole Apprentice theme is actually pretty cool.

Anyway, how else are you going to get to meet up with these people? The project leads? The people who are deciding what stays and what goes in (for example) System.Xml?

At your local coffee shop? I don't think so. In a way, if you *really* want to get your ideas in front of them, this is an excellent opportunity. Plus, by keeping attendance low (invite-only), there's some insurance that you might actually get to talk to these people for more than 15 seconds. You've been there before - waiting in line with everybody else after a good talk, just wanting to get your question answered by the wonk, when the wonk suddenly has to take off.

Well, this is a chance to get your question answered, provided you're the lucky winner.

I don't see how that's a bad thing.

Rory: well said. I do not agree with the "Don Box Started it" thing. I like how the community has been building up. I just don't want to see it being driven into a frenzy of celebrity sightings and autographs. It almost feels like this is all getting commercialized.
I like your resons for why this is a contest and to keep the number of people low, but it still smells funny to me. kinda like "Let's see who jumps the highest and we'll give them a carrot - you get to sit with us". Feels a bit..... humiliating? dare I say it?

Sure, you can always say "If you don't like it, don't come", but is that really what you want? Maybe sometimes people are not liking things for good reasons? Maybe a second look at all this *is* needed? an *objective* look? can you do that? can I?
neither one can, I think. But if at least we all talk about it, we get a broader picture.

1. Doesn't everyone wanna be a rock star?
2. NEVER knock the chance for a free meal.

Yes, it is just you.

Roy -

"I like how the community has been building up. I just don't want to see it being driven into a frenzy of celebrity sightings and autographs."

It isn't a "frenzy of celebrity sightings and autographs," nor is it ever likely to become so (in my opinion).

However, there's definitely a giddy excitement to getting to chat with the people, or simply spotting the people, who change and influence the tools and languages with which we work on a daily basis.

When it just so happens that some of these people are unusually charismatic/entertaining, it's easy to see where the weirdness comes from.

More than "celebrities," though, I'm reminded of when I was in college and there were certain profs that I respected like crazy. Getting to talk to them in the hallways/offices/whatever was always a total joy. I saw my old French prof walking around my neighborhood about four months ago, and I thought I was going to have a heart attack. Maybe it *is* a little silly that I should get so excited, but that guy could *really* teach French (he was also charming and handsome, which didn't hurt).

"It almost feels like this is all getting commercialized."

I don't see it that way at all.

One of the great things about this industry is that the people to whom we commonly refer as the "rock stars" are totally accessible.

The reason we consider them to be "rock stars" is that they've done things, or are doing things, that many of us consider to be exceptionally cool in some way or another. I mentioned Chris Sells earlier - for me, his ability to engage an audience and teach a concept efficiently is incredible. I'd be a liar if I said that I weren't partially "studying" him while watching him speak/converse nowadays - the same way I "study" David Bowie when I'm trying to figure out just how it is that he managed to present music in a way that I find so compelling.

However, I can't get close to David Bowie. All I'll ever have is a collection of his recordings.

Chris? Saw him the other night at a nerd dinner. Had the chance to chat about whatever. That's cool.

Nothing commercialized about that. Feels very "community"ish.

"I like your resons for why this is a contest and to keep the number of people low, but it still smells funny to me. kinda like "Let's see who jumps the highest and we'll give them a carrot - you get to sit with us". Feels a bit..... humiliating? dare I say it?"

Who jumps the highest?

The alternatives:

1) Don't allow *anybody* into the dinner
2) Allow *everybody* in (instant loss in value - the whole point is to be able to get the attention of the people who are changing the dev landscape for us)
3) Select someone without a contest - I think that *this* option would have you even more suspicious

The contest makes sense, and it sounds like entrance into the contest itself is merit based (having to do a quiz thing). That's cool.

"Sure, you can always say "If you don't like it, don't come", but is that really what you want?"

Absolutely, that's what I want. Think about my blog: I understand that there are people who hate me/the blog - I would *never* want them to read it. It seems like a painful experience for them. Some still do, and they write to me to complain about things they don't like, but I don't understand the point. If something hurts, then stay away!

That's at the risk of a smaller audience, of course, which is just fine. Speaking in terms of my blog again, I'd rather have one reader who really enjoyed my stuff than a million who hated it.

I feel the same way about everything in life, actually: Do what's right for you without messing things up for other people, and always remember that you're responsible for your own decisions.

"Maybe sometimes people are not liking things for good reasons?"

For *good* reasons, yes. However, this opens your own reasons up to scrutiny as well.

"Maybe a second look at all this *is* needed?"

Why is it needed? This is going to bother a handful of people for about ten minutes, and then they're going to go back to their lives like nothing ever happened. Giving it a second look would be to just lend it more attention, which is counterproductive to your interests. If you'd like to see less of this sort of thing, then don't publicize it!

"But if at least we all talk about it, we get a broader picture."

What is there to really talk about?

I, for one, thought the contest sounded like fun. I figured that my chances of entrance were slim, but it still adds to a carnival-like atmosphere.

Finally, Roy, you aren't even going! You've already been to TechEd this year. What does it really matter? Why do you want to effect a change in something that isn't even relevant for you?

Would you also like the meals to be delivered by a different catering company? Because now's the time to lodge a complaint!

The last line of your post:

"Isn't this all getting a little out of proportion?"

Isn't your *response* a little out of proportion? When people start dying, maybe that's when we should start to worry.

I find that about 95% of your posts are worthwhile, and they're the reason you're still in my aggregator. However, it's these "I'm going to police the dev world" ones that can be a bit of a turn-off. Your opinion is valuable, but you tend to get a bit carried away. Scott's a really good guy - you're a good guy. The contest is harmless. There's nothing to get all that excited about.

Rory: Thanks for the feedback. I appreciate you taking the time to explain.
I do see your point and have to say that sometimes I myself am partial as to whether I should actually post these things.

"Finally, Roy, you aren't even going! You've already been to TechEd this year. What does it really matter? Why do you want to effect a change in something that isn't even relevant for you? "
What would the world look like if people only stuck to where they are?
It's the prinicple of the matter that mattered to me, not where it was located.
If I read about SmallTalk, should I never write about it because I do not use it in my daily life? Should I not comment about the politics because I cannot influence them (besides voting) and have nothing to do with them? IF someone does something funny/stupid/annying - should I stop ,yself from commenting on it just because they don't live near me?

Does the fact that you yourself "complained" about people bragging about their NDAs on your blog make your question a little less relevant? Is that something you can change/has anything to do with you/Really matters?

But again, your point is taken.

BTW: another way to let a small crowed into the dinner: First N people who apply - can get in.

"First N people who apply - can get in. "

Roy, will you change the rules for your contest, too? First 3 people to apply get the prizes? If so, please consider this my application. :)

Rory,
"Anyway, how else are you going to get to meet up with these people? The project leads? The people who are deciding what stays and what goes in (for example) System.Xml?

At your local coffee shop? I don't think so."

Well it depends, at MY local coffee shops I could. My local coffee shops are in Redmond, Bellevue, and Seattle though. ;)

When I read these comments it sounds to me that the commenters think the dinner was invented for the "influencers" to hold court for an audience of lucky winners. Or that the concept of "influencers" was invented as PR for those who qualify. While I'm not holding the dinner, I am attending it, and I know neither of those thoughts are true.

At every conference there are some invitation-only things. There might be a dinner for those who've written books, or a bloggers dinner, or an MVP dinner, or whatever. This year there are plenty of those at Tech Ed. And one of them is available to the RDs: we're all invited, and we can swing one extra invitation. (It's not just the RD party, there are several groups invited, hence the rather vague title. To my knowledge none of the invitees is in marketing.) And since we find these events very valuable (I'm going to stay up till heaven-knows-when on my internal clock to go) we naturally think every geeky attendee would find them valuable too. Not so you can meet ME ME ME but so you can meet the folks I'm looking forward to seeing there. Folks whose names you may not know but whose work you will want to know about. (Or folks who are just a whole lot of fun to spend an evening with.) You can't just turn it into another attendeee party: the restaurant doesn't hold 9,000, and there is also the tiny matter of budget. There's only one attendee party. There are *lots* of exclusive invitation-only parties, most of which you don't know about until you see the pictures later on your buddy's blog and wonder why you weren't invited :-) . To my knowledge, none of them are world-domination worship-me ventures, or if they are they're not working. Sometimes a dinner is just a dinner.

So, in the fun "join us, we love doing this stuff" spirit of the RD booth and the RD game let me just invite you all to come by the booth, try some questions, and have fun. And maybe get to go to a cool dinner.

Kate

Roy,

Is there NOTHING you won't find fault with? Look, I think that you have interesting things to say sometimes, and I know you do a great job with your software, but I'm utterly puzzled by your occasional need to unload about something someone else is doing. Whether it's Rory getting invited to the MVP summit, or this thing, you seem all too ready to get your knickers in a hitch over the smallest things. Is there any chance that you could just lighten up...just a little? Please?

This stuff is getting old.

Very good point Roy.

IT and software industry is among the youngest industries around the world, and we should expect lots of changes, hypes, myths, legends, etc and over time the industry will become more mature.

Look at other fields like medicine for instance, which is among the most mature fields/sciences. Today we don't have medicine legends (yes we do, but they belong to the past!), what we have is a very structured and solid system (well I know that the operations side sucks like NHS in the UK, but it is more of a funding issue and doesn't have anything to do with the medical system e.g. GMC). You have got people who know and understand more, and have more experience, and you have got juniors.

More experienced people try to transfer their knowledge and experience to new comers, and they are not called legends. They are professional, and everybody respects them in that system, but they don't tell other people that "I am inventing everything in medicine, if you want to influence the inventions, then come and see me if you are invited!" If they start doing that, then they are not doing their job anymore, and all they have left with is just a "title".

Because of its age the medicine is right at the other end, but more or less you can find a similar pattern in other fields, including engineering sector. But as I mentioned IT is pretty young and we need to go through all these stages.

I am not speaking for anyone here, but my perception is that if Don Box, Chris Chris Sells (and other great guys) are today considered as legends, and if we need to attend a contest to have a chance to meet them, etc, it is not because they want it to be that way. It is us, other people, who are making legends of them, and then start worshiping them. Don Box is "Don Box" because of the nice books he has written, because of the good speeches he has delivered, and not because people have to participate in a draw in order to have a change to talk to them. But I can't ignore the fact that like any other field (sports, entertainment, etc), some people would like to run their own business by creating IT celebrity characters or try to become a celebrity by doing something like going to all private dinners with legends and then say "I am a celebrity now, you have the right to worship me now!".

One only has to look at www.softwarelegends.com to see how pathetic this hero-worship stuff can become.

I mean...really....The site just reeks of arrogance. Every industry has people who are well known and well respected. But very few industries, outside of athletics, props up a web site that that looks like a virtual altar for the thousands of unwashed masses to come and worship.