Microsoft is losing the community battle - against itself - ISerializable - Roy Osherove's Blog

Microsoft is losing the community battle - against itself

in one of my earlier posts, about what a typical user group looks like, Paschal put in this bitter comment:

"Roy the problem is that usergroups are not all the same friendly and nice in every country !
In Ireland sadly until now the only existing .Net user group is managed by public relation people who cares more about their Seattle client and they have nothing so geeky here. Most of the rare meetings Microsoft organise here are dull.
Yes ok I see the point you can make saying something like 'stop moaning do your own user group'. Well honestly I don't have time !
So I prefer to join and talk to a community using the blog, maybe helping somebody somewhere. I know some people can find this lame, but maybe some day I will join a real Irish user group, independent and supportive of their community. "

If that's not a serious red flag, i don't know what is. I have no idea what's going on in MS Ireland's executives minds, but surely it's not enough to make the community there happy. I guess that's one of the most important things a company such as MS can do for itself - make its users and customers happy. That's definitely not happening over there.  So - if Anyone which is community oriented in MS is reading this post - please take this issue to heart. I don't know enough about the situation there but it definitely does not smell right. I'd say to anyone involved in those efforts over there to get their butts up and start doing something for the community - while there still is one.

To a more limited degree, however, there are things to be said from MS Israel as well. what do I mean?

In the recent year or so we've seen the big Redmond giant become much more transparent. It has been a remarkable change for the customers and end users. Much more information, much more sharing, much more attention to details. It's been amazing and I applaud MS for doing so. This process of transparency, mostly through employee weblogs, has done another thing: it has raised the bar for community involvement for all the other MS embassies in foreign countries. Places such as Israel, Ireland, Brazil, Spain, Italy and many more, now seem duller and more contained within themselves when compared to the Redmond machine. it can't be helped, really. Developers from all around the world are reading msdn blogs and weblogs.asp.net and starting to wonder "why don't we have that as well?". That's a totally valid question.

MS embassies which could have lived forever on doing just enough to sell products and help support for their native speakers now should find themselves at a disadvantage, community wise, when faced and compared to Redmond, and most rightly so. It is embarrassing. The only analogy I can compare it to is to what happened several years ago in the telephony market in Israel.

Up until a few years ago the overseas telephony market in Israel was monopolised by the "Bezeq" company- to call abroad you would have to take out a small mortgage and still count the seconds each conversations you did so that you would still be left with your pants on. then the market suddenly opened for competitors and BEZEq's prices dropped by about 90% to stay competitive - thus showing off the huge amounts of profit they've made on the customers. This same situation - community wise, is now starting to appear for MS and its embassies. only this time MS Redmond is the competitor, showing how things "can be done right" making the developers ask for more.

The only problem right now is this: It doesn't feel like the foreign embassies are truly listening. I think people who are not from the US are losing out on things that could have been much better. Especially lack of communication with the local MS branch. MS Israel for example, still does not know how to listen to the community as well as its mother-ship does. For example, at the last user group meeting a nice lady stopped by before the meeting started and asked all attendees to fill out the paper reviews after the lecture - specifying things that are bothering us, things that could have been better and things that are missing. she would read them all, she said. to me - that's amazingly out of touch with today's online community. You can no longer(and should not) be able to get away with such things. why is the only weblog from a MS employee in Israel is Yosi Taguri's weblog?(and it's rarely updated since yossi is so busy) I know yossi is doing some great things for the community in Israel but one man is definitely not enough. the people who are supposedly in charge of community in MS Israel can do much more to listen to us. they should open weblogs, they should read weblogs, they should do more to unite the user groups in Israel today (I'm part of an effort to do just that these days). they should not hand out papers and pens and expect people to spill their guts out. at the end of the day people are tired and want to go home. heck - even I didn't write comments on that paper because I was tired and forgot, and you can't blame me for not speaking my mind, can you?

So - MS branches around the world - listen up. You need to take charge, you need to swipe you local community off its feet because I bet most of you are not doing enough. You should read weblogs and comment on stuff that matters. you should open your own weblogs and share what you're going through. you should share the community in the decision making process. You should stop living in a bubble. It just won't fly anymore.

 

Published Sunday, July 11, 2004 2:49 AM by RoyOsherove
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Comments

Saturday, July 10, 2004 2:04 PM by TrackBack

# What's a local office to do.....

Saturday, July 10, 2004 7:59 PM by Johnny Hall

# re: Microsoft is losing the community battle - against itself

I don't think community efforts should, or even can, be led or organised by MS themselves. Sure, they should listen, and assist. But if the local "community" (s) can't or won't organise themselves, then there's nothing MS can do about it.
Saturday, July 10, 2004 8:26 PM by Robert Scoble

# re: Microsoft is losing the community battle - against itself

Roy, interesting stuff!

Johnny, I agree with you. In Silicon Valley user groups are part of the culture (Apple Computer's founders, for instance, belonged to a user group and that's how they perfected their early ideas).

With meetup.com or geekdinner.com it gets even better. Anyone can put together a small group. I know .NET developers who live in Iran and get together on a regular basis.

I'd love to hear from those running user groups overseas, though, how we can help better.

A great group to work with is INETA.org, by the way. They support hundreds of user groups all over the world.

Anyway, I'd love to know how to help from inside Redmond. I'm sure a few other people here will read this weblog. :-)
Saturday, July 10, 2004 9:07 PM by Scott McCulloch

# re: Microsoft is losing the community battle - against itself

"The only problem right now is this: It doesn't feel like the foreign embassies are truly listening."

Here in Australia, we receive great support from the local office in regards to user groups.. we have 10 INETA groups here in Australia, which is great considering our population..
Sunday, July 11, 2004 6:21 AM by Jackie Goldstein

# re: Microsoft is losing the community battle - against itself

Johnny and Robert are right on the mark - you can't demand Microsoft to RUN a User Group that the community itself doesn't/can't run itself. As the founder and leader fo the first and longest running MS UG in Israel, I can say that my experience has been very good. It has always been important to me for the UG to be independant and stand on its own - even though our venue and refreshments are sponsored by Microsoft. MS Israel has always supported us (at least my UG) in this fashion - despite the funding/sponsorship, it is our group, where we/I set the agenda and speakers. Yes, MS does occassionally suggest topics and/or speakers, but they have never been imposed on me.

The issue of combining some UG (eg C# & VB) was raised, discussed and polled among UG members. There are enough members against such a combination, such that, at least for now, we're sticking with our current setup.

And of course, we are all members of INETA !
Sunday, July 11, 2004 10:40 AM by Roy Osherove

# re: Microsoft is losing the community battle - against itself

Jackie - I'm not saying MS Israel is not supportive. I'm saying it can do even better.
Just like MS USA has done plenty before the blog boom - now they're doing much more and it shows.
Unfortunately - Israel's situation is still considered pretty good in comparison to some other countries. My post was about these facts. and the facts as I wished them to be.
Sunday, July 11, 2004 2:32 PM by Ian Cooper

# re: Microsoft is losing the community battle - against itself

We get a lot of support here in the UK too. I just came back from a meeting on Friday with other user group leaders in the UK hosted by MS. We spoke with each other, with MS and even had someone come and discuss 'marketing for user groups'. The user groups have Microsoft technical contacts in the UK if they need them. So they definitely take working with us fairly seriously. If we have any problems here in the UK it is perhaps because we have not really sorted out our INETA relationship.

But it must be said, while MS can facilitate, outside developers have to step up to the plate and run the group in the first place. you don't get community without contribution. MS isn't going to run the group for you, but they will help you out if you do.
Sunday, July 11, 2004 7:33 PM by Paschal

# re: Microsoft is losing the community battle - against itself

Hi Roy, thanks for this post. Yes the situation here is one of the worst you can imagine. Now the latest news I have about MS Ireland is they're on the way to choose a new PR company.
But what I really want here is a true INETA group. I mentioned this few months ago to Julia Lerman, but I am disappointed that nothing can be done here.
Ireland supposed to be one of the top countries in Europe for Microsoft, and I can't see here a strong community foundation.
If only I could have more time ! But I am also ready to participate, if something move.
So Robert if you have some spare time to take care of the leprechauns let me know :-)
Sunday, July 11, 2004 9:41 PM by Colt

# re: Microsoft is losing the community battle - against itself

Good point Roy! As you may know that I'm actually from Asia, I don't know what's the "strategy" and "direction" of "Developer/Community" around Asian countries from MS point of view, but what I can say is.. it's more or less the same as your area, and MS can do even better.

I created my local user group and ask for a seminar room (pretty common and easy task, right?).. well.. it look like I'm breaking the normal schedule and operation of MS office; the MSDN/Developer Group managers even ask "What's INETA?" , "What's the difference/relationship of local user group with INETA?". See? I'd like to know is there any briefing about user group / INETA for MSDN Group internally?
Monday, July 12, 2004 2:55 PM by Bill Evjen

# re: Microsoft is losing the community battle - against itself

INETA definately tries to get the local Microsoft offices to understand the user groups in their area(s) and how they might be of help. Though paritally, INETA came into being because of the lack of response in getting local Microsoft offices to help user groups start/grow/foster. Sometimes they want to help, but have no resources. Sometimes they don't care to help. And sometimes it is a political thing in a city where they will only help one user group in town as it a group created by a partner that is important to them. Though, there are cities where the local Microsoft office/user groups relations are outstanding. It definatly needs more work and more recently the folks in the regions are getting "scored" on their involvement with user groups - so we should start seeing more and more involvment from them.

Bill Evjen
Executive Director (INETA)
Monday, July 12, 2004 3:17 PM by David Totzke

# re: Microsoft is losing the community battle - against itself

HORSE HOCKEY!

Roy,

I don't want Microsoft more involved in driving the user group community. It misses the whole point of *user* groups. Sure they can provide support and resources but in the end, it should be up to the people involved to make it happen lest you end up with an artificially created community. I think Ian Cooper said it best: "you don't get community without contribution."

As far as the evaluation/feedback forms go, if it's important enough to someone, they will take the time to fill out the paper. Could there be a better mechanism for gathering this information? Sure. But at least it's something.

Paschal:
I'm sure you must know some like-minded people. Perhaps together you can build a group. I feel your pain, but nobody is going to do it for you.

So - MS Branches around the world - *listen up* - DON'T take charge! Support and encourage certainly, but if you try to take control, the only community you will have is the one you build yourselves, and it's just not the same thing. The minute you turn your back, that community will vaporize.

User groups were around long before MS paid much attention and as Bill Evjen pointed out, the Community took charge and built INETA and MS helps to support us. But, they don't control us.