[Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000 - ISerializable - Roy Osherove's Blog

[Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

(update: I added some updates about more reasons for the settlements as well as more about the size of israel, and a note about the british rule (with some images))

Apologies to the regular readers of this blog.

This is a political post, which I don’t usually do. I live in Israel. I love the fact that technology brings people together, and I have several online friends from countries considered enemies of or hostile to israel (syria, iran, lebanon).

With the recent conflicts between Israel and Palestinians in Gaza, You’ve  probably seen this map being thrown around in various forums.

image

It depicts what seems to be a loss of land that was previously Palestinian. It looks pretty horrible without context, I know.As an israeli and as someone who really dislikes dis-information, I though I’d give my point of view, based on what the real facts .

I’m writing this so that I can point my friends and those who ask to a place where there is more context and info about this map, and why, even though it may be georgraphically correct, it is a distortion of reality to take it out of context.

A good source of history information about the conflict

a site doesn’t take sides, that has a more or less accurate information about the dispute can be found here.

 

OK, let’s talk about the maps from left to right (chronological order):

Map 1: 1946

WindowClipping (6) The map is NOT graphically correct. Several things are not accurate. First – the british had ruled israel. this was not arab land or jewish land. jews and arabs were living in british occupation. Another thing that needs to be said is that the bottom half of the map was unpopulated – it is a desert part in israel, and even today, it has less than 10% of the population living there because of the conditions. so it should not be green or white.  it was largely empty.

The arab population in israel was larger than the jewish population, and they were both growing at a large rate.There was a large influx of jews coming in(most of whom were fleeing the increasing persecution in Europe). There was lots of killing and massacres against the jews until the UN decided to partition the land (as seen on map 2).

Map 2:

WindowClipping (7) The UN decided what the division would be(israel got most of the uninhebited, desert part). arabs got the right part, and lots of the top and parts of the left. For context – the right side of the map borders with Jordan, which means the UN declared the green right part to actually be jordanian terrotory. the top part id bordering with syria and lebanon. the bottom part borders with egypt.

map 3:

WindowClipping (8) The important thing to remember here is that the arabs did not accept the UN decision and instead began to wage war against the israelis (who wanted to accept it). During this war the israelies had won, and had pushed the arabs back into what is now seen in map 3 (second from the right). Remember, this was war and the green zones were attaching the white ones. so green was smaller at the end of the war.

in essence, map 2 never came into existence. except in the minds of the UN.

that’s how it roughly stayed until 67.

map 4:

WindowClipping (9) so how did we get from map 3 to map 4?

in 67, Egypt decided to declare war on Israel (the bottom gray in the map is the start of egypt. They essentially closed all the bottom part of israel and parts which are not seen on this map.

Jordan and Syria (to the right and to the top of israel) quickly joined in the war, and israel was now attacked from 3 sides. yes. that includes in inner green part that was actually attacking israel from almost within it.

Israel gained victory in that war, pushing back jordan, syria and egypt into what will now look closer to map no. 4 (most right).

the settlement problem

After Israel had won, it could have chosen to do many things – for example negotiate with jordan and leave the places won over to something like the 67’ border.  But it chose, for mostly security, ideological and religious reasons, to stay in those territories and start building settlements there. it built roads that divided the occupied land and basically did lots of things which today there is nothing really good to say about them (and is slowly trying to turn back the wheel on some of them). Still, the security aspect is the one that is the most relevant today. It keeps the other side farther away. if they were closer, their missiles could have easily hit 60% of israel, instead of 30% right now.

A hole we can’t get out of

a lot of what people have a problem with today is the fact that israel as a country supported and still supports parts of the settlements, which are not legal by international law. the reasons, again, are security,ideological and religion (promised land etc..). there is a great divide among the israeli people whether this should continue or not but the situation has now become too problematic to easily solve. Many also believe that the settlements are a security measure that helps to keep the missile attacks farther away from the cities.

for example, Israel had actually gotten fully out of part of the territories (gaza for example), but got back missilies and rockets (which is why we see the Israel coming back in – to stop this). there were many negotiations and many agreements that were broken or followed by both on a single side of the conflict, and many believe that there is no one to talk to on the other side.

many in israel believe that two states are the end result any way, (something like the 67 borders) but want to make sure that the other state will not try to destroy israel (as it had promised to do, with the backing of iran and syria) many times. a state next to you has to recognize that you have a right to exist, and not try to burn you.

Why we are in gaza now

Israel is in gaza now for the simple reason of stopping the rockets and achieving a ceasefire that will last for a long time. it has started with a 6 month quiet period in which over 400 rockets were fired on israel from gaza with no retaliation.

there is no denying that the human situation in gaza sucks. Israel tries to aid in allowing food shipments, money and international aid through passages, but at the end of the day, right now, it is trying to defend itself. nothing more, and nothing less. with force, yes. because nothing else before that has worked.

The size of israel

Israel is Tiny. Seriously. Much smaller than California, Norway or Argentina (see more places to compare). I can take my car and drive from north to south in about 6-8 hours of non stop driving. Compare israel to the size of its surrounding countries and you begin to see what “small and surrounded with enemies” feels like. Jews have literally nowhere else to go. Arabs have lots and lots. yet they insist that Israel be destroyed.  And Israel still has to defend itself from many threats all around. and now, also from within.

 

There is a lot of mis and dis information running around the web right now. I hope that the facts can help sort things out. I hope that I had done justice to the facts.

Before writing this, I did some fact checking with a well known middle-east researcher before publishing this, and will update this post on problems or important comments.

Published Monday, January 05, 2009 6:12 AM by RoyOsherove

Comments

Monday, January 05, 2009 6:59 AM by Jarle Nygård

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

I mush applaude your effort to stay objective, can't be easy when your country is at war.

What I find to be very interesting is the fact that Israel is a democratic and prosperous contry, whilst its neighbours are neither... There could be many reasons for this, and I'm not going to try to list them, but it is interesting. :)

Monday, January 05, 2009 7:05 AM by Alex

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

Great job man ! Let the truth be known.

Monday, January 05, 2009 7:24 AM by Chilá

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

Roy, I believe that, as occurs in marriage, this fight will only find an end when both sides decides to lose something. Both sides needs to understand that a war, will not help, and worst, will make everything harder, because, the war, will cause some (lot of) deaths and lot (thousands) of injured. I hope that the mans can see that and that both states can live in peace. Although in my point of view, the war between Israel and Palestinian will never find and end. This fight occurs for thousands of years and won't stop in a "Click". But I hope for peace soon. See you.

Monday, January 05, 2009 7:48 AM by Peter Morlion

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

Good, decent info. Thanks for that. But don't be fooled by any fighting party when they say they're just defending themselves. It's an excuse that has been used too many times, and in the end, innocent are victimized.

Vietnam was a defensive action against upcoming communism, Afghanistan against terrorism, Iraq against Sadam's non-existent weapons of mass-destruction, warring parties in Congo claim to defend minorities, ... Hamas claims to defend Palestinians, Israel claims to defend Israeli's.

I'm not saying none of it is true, but there is always an extra agenda: elections, power (geopolitical, military,...).

What Israel should focus on, is empowering Fatah because they are obsiously a better partner than Hamas. And they will need a partner if they wan't to get out of this.

Just my two cents, love your blog :)

Monday, January 05, 2009 7:57 AM by Robin Hay

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

Roy

I used to be a "two states" man but that looks doomed. What about a "one state" federal, secular solution? Has worked elsewhere (but takes about 10-20 years to happen!)

Monday, January 05, 2009 8:09 AM by mbischoff

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

Thanks a lot for that post!

I was wondering for some time how israeli people see the current situation and was hoping for such a post either by you or ayende (since you are the only isrealis I "know").

The situation in israel/palestine is very difficult to understand for someone outside. And it it's easily possible to have a very strong (and possible wrong) opinion about it, even though we don't know all the facts.

One question though: Isn't Isreal still building more settlements in these parts? How is your opinion (or generally the opinion of the israeli people) about that?

Monday, January 05, 2009 8:39 AM by wessamzeidan

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

I guess its a matter of point of view. Here's another version of the story

www.ifamericansknew.org/.../origin.html

Monday, January 05, 2009 9:02 AM by Martin Moe

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

(Should be read with a clear indian accent while knitting dressed in sandals and a white robe)

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"

                   M. Ghandi

Cu around Roy (Norwegian party TechEd 2009 Berlin?)

Monday, January 05, 2009 12:26 PM by pablito900

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

Very nice and objective article. I just wanted to say that it isn't fair the fact that the media is unbalanced showing only "what horrible things" Israel does, without telling the whole truth, while arab countries (Iran, Irak and more) killed and kill more arabs than Israel, but this is ok because arabs are allowed to kill, hang, torture, lynch and do many other calamities to arabs, but if Israel defends itself then Israel is committing an holocaust.

Also the hypocrisy of some countries which condemns Israel operations in Gaza, such as Russia (see what they did in Georgia or in Chechenia).

I wonder how UK would react if some country would (hope never happens) throw the more tiny rocket in London?

Well Israel is dealing with it 8 years.

I just hope all this will end some day, so I can write programming comments instead of political comments.

Good day everyone.

Monday, January 05, 2009 1:44 PM by Michael Sevestre

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

Great great job Roy! Thank you for sharing this information with us.

Monday, January 05, 2009 2:39 PM by chris

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

so in summary you are saying

1: Its OK to take that land because no one lived there

3 & 4: It's OK to take that land because we won it in war fair and square

absolutely unbelievably arrogant.

Monday, January 05, 2009 3:52 PM by James Coffman

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

Roy, great article. I dont know of any other country that would show as much restraint as Israel has shown.

Why does it seem like the Jewish people get blamed for everything?

BTW: Israel is an awesome place to visit.

Monday, January 05, 2009 5:51 PM by Bill

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

Considering you live there, you did an amazing job trying to be fair and representative of both sides.  

It sucks that some anonymous a55 like "Chris" implies a summary of your point that you didn't make.

Roy never said it was "OK" to take that land b/c it was uninhabited. He said BRITIAN ruled it (read - it wasn't either party's land in any real sense) and then the UN split it up - and Israel got the shorter end of the stick. Implied is that if Israel was satisfied with the shorter end of the stick, they certainly would be satisfied if they got what the Palestinians got.

As far as 3  & 4 go - it might be arrogant if Israel started the war but they didn't. They were attacked, they handled business and in the face of an ongoing ever present threat, they did what they felt necessary to defang their opponents.

I wonder "Chris", if I parked outside your house and started firing a gun in the direction of your home, would you feel comfortable with it?  If the cops came and moved me but I was allowed to come back and start doing it over and over, would you sleep at night?  That's why we have restraining orders and in essence, that's what happened with your 3&4.

No country is perfect and all have blemishes. There's pleny of blame to go around to all parties in this but don't act like it's so hard to imagine that people want to sleep at night without fear of getting killed by someone with the means and desire to do it. It's a complex issue that's spawned several years and simplistic This Good That Bad arguments are, to borrow a phrase absolutely unbelievably ignorant.  The truth is, if Israel was 1/100th as 'evil' or 'Zionist' as many of her critics assert, this thing would have been over a long time ago.

One real tragedy about this whole thing is that it's turned into a proxy Left/Right America/Anti-America argument.  Israel's wrong b/c they are friends with the US.  In almost every case you can tell what someone's politics are in large part based on this one issue.

Monday, January 05, 2009 6:04 PM by Seeker

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

This is a very multi-dimensional post you've made. It is apparent that you've done some real research and tried to clear up disinformation regarding the map, and you've made a heroic attempt to present your own expression without becoming incendiary.

On the other hand, you appear to be pre-emptively dismissive of alternate points of view in some parts of the post "but at the end of the day, right now, it[Isreal] is trying to defend itself. nothing more, and nothing less."

People on both "sides" of this conflict face complicated, excruciatingly painful, and frustrating (a massive understatement) times right now.

You can see that frustration and deep pain reflected in the nature of some of the comments above. I need not quote them as I think those comments express themselves clearly enough.

Your own words do a good job of keeping the destructive potential of your expression minimal. It is wonderful to see people that work to keep their pain and frustration in balance with forward movement. You certainly have a right (and perhaps even a duty) to express that pain to be honest with yourself.

Move forward with the spirit of inquiry that shines in the research in your post, it will help you to break through more and more preconceptions, even your own, ESPECIALLY your own.

Every single one of us has got to reach out to the other (not asking you to throw your own expressions, and frustrations out of the window though).

I agree with Mr. Patel.. we need a new playbook:

newsweek.washingtonpost.com/.../same_old_middle_east_playbook.html

newsweek.washingtonpost.com/.../status_quo_vs_solution_for_mid.html

Shalom. :)

Monday, January 05, 2009 6:18 PM by Ricardo

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

Disclaimer: I've never known war (or terrorism) in my lifetime, and for that I'm very greatfull.

>>

3 & 4: It's OK to take that land because we won it in war fair and square

<<

While I don't believe Roy said/meant that, what do you suggest ? Handing that land back just a few hours after the end of the war(s) ? Unfortunately, Israel needs defendable borders, so I can fully understand why they will hold on to the West-Bank no matter what. (However, I'm not religious, so any argument like 'I believe in this book, therefor this is my land' falls on deaf ears with me.)

>>

Israel is in gaza now for the simple reason of stopping the rockets and achieving a ceasefire that will last for a long time.

<<

I truly hope that the IDF is able to kill every single terrorist in Gaza (and elsewhere). However, I doubt that that will lead to a long (permanent) ceasefire.

If my neighbor tries to kill you and you take him out by shooting him in the head, fine by me. If you take him out by destroying our apartment building, killing my 3 year old daughter in the process, well... you just made a new enemy.

OTOH, If you want to kill me, I'll do anything to take you out first, even if I have to destroy... oh well, you get the point :-(

If I had a solution for the current situation, you would be reading _my_ blog instead of me reading yours. The only thing I can think of is allowing the Palestinians to have a 'normal' live.

Hopefully, in a few years time, a conversation in Gaza will go like this.

"Hey dude, I'm bored, wanna make some rockets to shoot at Israel ?"

"I can't, the Apple store just called, I can pick up my new iPhone in 30 minutes"

"Coooooool, after that then ?"

"Sorry, I have to go to the travel agency, booking my holiday to Thailand."

"How about tomorrow?"

"I'm supposed to play WoW then. BTW, shouldn't you be rehearsing your presentation on unit-testing for Tech-Ed Australia ?"

"Yeah, I guess you're right. Oh well, never mind then."

"We're still on for tonight right ? That new Israeli restaurant around the corner supposedly has the best food in the middle-east."

"Of course, I'll meet you there at 19:00."

Monday, January 05, 2009 7:38 PM by RoyOsherove

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

wassem:

you might be interested in this critic about IfAmericansKnew:

www.themiddleeastnow.com/ifamericansknew.html

that site is not only one sided, it actually stated wrong facts and repeated facts.

give me a side-free site and I'd love to read it.

Monday, January 05, 2009 9:57 PM by Franki Rizzo

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

Roy, I agree with everything you said, except for the reference to the 1967 conflict.  In it, Israel preemptively attacked first, after the Arab states (e.g. Egypt, Syria, Jordan) essentially blockaded and declared war on it.

Tuesday, January 06, 2009 2:37 AM by mohi88

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

just check this link to know what israil is doing !!!!!!

www.islamonline.net/.../index.shtml

Tuesday, January 06, 2009 3:14 AM by RAY

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

i just want to say, Killing gaza children will bring no peace, it will only increase the fire and feed the war, but israel brought that to itself, so they should be prepared..

Facts: since the brutle attacs started on gaza 10 days ago; 573 palastinian people were killed, 100-140 of them are innocent children and women, and the rest are mostly civilian men, 2700 wonded people! the hospitals have no space for them, no medicin, no water, and not enough medical personnels(7+ of the medical personnels were missiled by IDF while they were trying to clear wonded people in ambulances), is that a fair war! you do the judgment. at the end, a picture worth a thousand words, I will leave you to them:

www.islamonline.net/.../index.shtml

and you can find alot more pictures on facebook, just do the search.

Tuesday, January 06, 2009 3:49 AM by tony2005

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

There are lots of horror stories about Israel too and well documented. Your points can also be refuted but let's not open a heated discussion. Ask any Intellectual Arab and he or she can supply you with persuading facts.

My question is where was Israel before 1948 and before Britain's colonization of that land? What country was it?

---

On a side note..

Democracy is not a reason to invade another country and kill thousands of people. You don't shove your political ideology down other people's throat. I am talking here about what American's think of democracy. If you ask 10 Americans what does democracy mean to them, you probably get 10 different answers and most probably naive silly answers based on what they hear from the media. Maybe my democracy does not go well with your democracy and you should be punished?

---------------

The situation between Israel and Palestine is a big mess. I don't think there's a way to make everyone happy and I think the fighting will go on for a (very?)long time. I believe both Israelis and Palestinians do not like each other deep in their hearts and do not believe in peace. Each one wants the other out of the land.

Tuesday, January 06, 2009 3:51 AM by FransBouma

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

I understand that you live in Israel and that that colors your views.

I also hope you understand that what Israel does to the palestinian people in general is simply unacceptable: the wall (which cuts through palestinian land and leaves them with barren sand, Roy), the settlements, the checkpoints... While one will say that Israel has to do that because of the terrorists, it's easily forgotten that for example in Gaza there are 1.5 million people living there and _all_ of them are suffering at the moment. Hard. Are they all terrorists? No, not at all, they're civilians who simply want to live in peace, the same kind of peace the israeli's on the other side of the border want.

That's the sad part of this: in Israel, the problems with the palestinians is a political power: a politician can use it to mask economic problems and use it to look like a real leader. That's why it will never be solved from the Israeli's point of view. On the other side of the high concrete wall, you have suppressed people who have nowhere else to go and are depending on Israel for supplies, electricity, water etc. If some clan says they'll bring them a better life, they will follow them, despite the fact that that same clan isn't interested in solving the problem either: if the problem is gone and peace is reached, Hamas is over.

The bigger picture is also that Israel is the USA's pawn in the global power play in the middle-east, with for example Syria as a pawn of russia. This has been the case for decades and will continue in the future. These global powers also aren't interested in solving the problem, because that makes them lose a political power in the middle east.

What I personally find very annoying is the fact that I have to read a lot of pro-israel propaganda with claims that they have to be so aggressive because they're so tiny and that everyone hates them. I'm sorry, but I find that nonsense. I'm from the netherlands and that's also a very tiny country. We don't make war with our neighbours because we can't do that, nor do we want to. And take for example Lebanon. It's in ruins still, because Israel bombed the crap out of it 2 years ago and the shores are still polluted because of the oil pollution caused by the bombing of the harbor. Please don't make the 'we're so tiny and therefore have to be aggressive' plea, because it's not going to help. Lebanon is even smaller and hasn't bombed the crap out of israel, on the contrary.

Anyway, if israel was really interested in peace, they would try to make peace instead of war (and dropping a lot of bombs in gaza isn't making peace, Roy. You have to leave gaza one day, which will make the situation return to the way it was, even worse: even more people will likely be willing to follow hamas). Again, the opponents aren't really interested in peace as well (Hezbollah and Hamas). Not because they love being killed, but because their existence depends on it. Unfortunately, the elections which are around the corner in Israel prove that in Israel, for politicians it's the same.

In a dutch newspaper, I once read a large piece which had as subject: "What if we ignore the middle east for 10 years?". It was a great read, because it made me realize that it was actually a bit silly why the world is so eagerly watching what happens in the middle east while there's a whole continent (africa) which doesn't get even 1% of that amount of attention. If the world wouldn't use the middle east as a super-power playground, would the situation today exist at all? I doubt it. Remember: the sole reason the egyptian-gaza border is closed is because Mubarak follows the US.

I don't see a solution coming soon, as everyone who has a thing to say (and Europe has nothing to say there) there is not interested in solving it. It's sad really, as thousands of innocent lives, at each side of the border, will be lost for no other reason than the hunger for power.

Tuesday, January 06, 2009 3:52 AM by RoyOsherove

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

Ray: The only reason innocents are dying is because rockets are being shot from within populated areas: schools, hospitals and mosques. Still, israel tried its best not to involve civilians in the process, but it is hard when you have people hiding behind women and children.

the people to blame for those unfortunate deaths are the ones who shoot from within those places.

hamas leaders, while staying in bunkers, are even calling out to citizens to play a human shield for hamas.

that's fair , isn't it?

Tuesday, January 06, 2009 4:14 AM by Campbell McNeill

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

Roy,

I wish you and you country all the best. You are a beacon of civilization amongst those who would seek to return you back to the dark ages and I admire the courage and fortitude of the Israeli people.

Tuesday, January 06, 2009 6:00 AM by Peter Morlion

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

Last time I react, because political discussions never stop :)

I don't think your statement about the Palestinians being able to everywhere and Israelis can't, is correct. Palestinians aren't very welcome in much of the Arab world. The closest countries are Egypt, which doesn't want them, and Libanon, where they don't have the same rights as normal Libanese citizens.

Secondly, Hamas hiding between citizens is nasty, I agree. But it's nothing other countries don't do (I live in Belgium and I know quite some military bases in the middle of regular housing areas). And even if it is to be condemned, does that justify the killing of so many civilians? To me, it doesn't.

There just aren't any absolute truths in a conflict, but any state built on any form of nationalism and the idea that the state exists for one nationality, religion, etc. is bound to give conflict, and we in Europe know all about it.

Tuesday, January 06, 2009 6:22 AM by Tormod

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

Very nice, Frans.

The idea that you make the world a good place by "killing all evil people" should die with the Bush administration along with the inquisition style mentality of chastizing people to "make them come around and see you as the good guy".

The Palestinian militia cells feed from the conflict just like Israeli politicians do. And it is simply scary how popular the sorties are with the Israeli population.

The Irony:

* The Israeli does more killing, harassing and marginalizing in a much more elaborate, up-close-and-personal and cynic fashion.

* The Israeli civilian population is way more educated.

* The Israeli has a working administration that is actually capable of stopping Israeli attacks.

* The common palestinian, who tries to provide for his family, faces daily tangible consequences of the Israeli wall, checkpoints and the occasional deprivation of food, water.

But still, the Israeli expect the palestinians to be the ones to:

* turn on their warmongerers.

* Produce the solution.

Shouldn't, by all rational accounts, the Israeli be the ones to do that?

Instead the Israeli administration are setting impossible standards that no body in Gaza has the opportunity to enforce.

The arabs did not accept the UN proposition. A war was declared, sure, but a de-facto state of war was on the part of Israel.

The analogy I see in this is as if we Scandinavians should "preemptively" kill everybody who shouted "Death to the danish cartoonists".

Certain types of debates are hard to come by in the arab world. Like: "Mohammed had many good ideas, but...."

When two parties are trading blows, both always blaming the present one on the previous one by the other, you must be dumbing yourself down in order to not see the obviouos symmetry.

Tuesday, January 06, 2009 6:26 AM by Niki

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

Just my personal opinion: If you want peace, you have to stop thinking about injustice that has been done 50 years ago, 100 years ago or 1000 years ago. That's the kind of thinking that breeds long-running conflicts that no side can win (as seen in Northern Ireland, Yugoslavia and many other conflicts throughout history). If you want peace, stop discussing the past, get over it and start thinking about the future. Israel seems to get that, they've made and kept peace with former sworn enemies like Egyt. So do (I think) Fatah and many Arab nations. It's the Hamas that doesn't get that (yet), and while I do feel compassion for the civilians in Gaza, I really don't see what else Israel could have done in the current situation.

Tuesday, January 06, 2009 7:16 AM by FransBouma

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

@Niki:

"It's the Hamas that doesn't get that (yet), and while I do feel compassion for the civilians in Gaza, I really don't see what else Israel could have done in the current situation."

As I said: if you consider that the core reason Hamas even exists is the fact that there's no future at the moment for anyone in Gaza due to the fact that there are no economic possibilities (I hope I don't have to explain that), one could argue that to get rid of Hamas is equal to get rid of the reason it's there: make it possible for the people in Gaza to live a normal peaceful life. Of course, there will always be extremists among them, but similar to today, that group is very small compared to the overall population (and let's not forget, the number of extremists among israeli's isn't smaller either).

Though that requires sacrifices from both sides. Israel won't do sacrifices, because that will be political suicide and they also think they don't have to as no-one blames them for killing a lot of people and destroying vital infrastructure, and Hamas won't do that either, for the same reason and unfortunately for the pro-israeli's: they do have a point when they say that life for a palestinian in general sucks compared to what it could have been and the world apparently doesn't care.

Tuesday, January 06, 2009 8:28 AM by guts

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

What I find to be very interesting is the fact that Israel is a democratic and prosperous contry, whilst its neighbours are neither... There could be many reasons for this, and I'm not going to try to list them, but it is interesting. :)

>>>

lol dude, easy with 84 billions of international (mostly usa) financial aid since 1949

Tuesday, January 06, 2009 8:45 AM by Niki

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

@FransBouma:

"...the core reason Hamas even exists is the fact that there's no future at the moment for anyone in Gaza..."

I think this is not entirely correct. At least one main factor seems to be that some Palestinians think that an event that happened 60 years ago is a valid reason to kill Israeli civilians today. Even if neither the killer nor the victim were alive 60 years ago. You can find that opinion in many comments e.g. here or in Ayende's post (who happens to say pretty much what I tried to say, only better). That's bullshit, and that's all I was saying.

Of course, you also have a point: The economic situation in Gaza was disastrous before this war, mainly because of the closed borders. Egypt closed its borders because they fear more terrorist attacks (the Hamas aren't exactly friends with moderate Arab governments as in Egypt), and the Israelis closed theirs for more or less the same reason.

But I guess the right question is not "who's fault is this" but "what could they do to make things better". For the Hamas, not shooting rockets at civilians and announcing terrorist attacks around the world would have been a good idea. For Israel, in the current situation, I don't see any better choice (even if I agree with you, the current choice might not be very good). Do you?

(And btw: When you say "they do have a point when they say that life for a palestinian in general sucks compared to what it could have been and the world apparently doesn't care" - that's just not true. Unlike tragedies in e.g. Darfur, Chechnya, Afghanistan, Somalia or Simbabwe, there is a lot of worldwide attention to the situation in Gaza, including all kinds of attempts to solve it or at least to provide medical/financial aid.)

Tuesday, January 06, 2009 10:24 AM by Niki

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

@guts: "lol dude, easy with 84 billions of international (mostly usa) financial aid since 1949"

Apparently not that easy, if you consider that the Palestinian government gets more than 1 billion dollars of foreign aid per year.

Tuesday, January 06, 2009 11:21 AM by tony2005

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

Yeah.. punish a whole population because some leaders are wild. Drop one ton bombs on them.

- Israel as a DEMOACRATIC country doesn't obey any UN resolution.

- Does size really matter? Israel has the second strongest army. All abled Israeli citizens are ready to fight. They all get military training. It has piles and piles of fire power plus nuclear power. Which Arab country comes close? BTW, Somalia and Mauritiania are not Arab countries. All those links you posted are Israeli. No wonder! They don't even speak Arabic. Arab countries are fructured and ruled by tyrants with self interests. So Israel you don't really have to worry from their size.

- Israel as a DEMOCRATIC country does not allow any kind of inspectors to their nuclear structures.

- Israel tries to squeeze life supplies from Palestenians in many ways. What do they expect in return.. Thank you's!? If the US is almost chocked to death by a foreign country, I wonder if they would just throw rocks and ad hoc rockets. The Palistinians barely have enough to survive on.

- Palistinian land is dwindling because Israel confiscates land from Palistinians, demolishes their houses with bulldozers and builds settlements in these lands and hopes these settlements grow and push the Palistinians out. It's just like cancer. Cancer plants itself in a foreign body, tries to grow at the expense of its neighbor cells, blood cells fight it. Cancer retaliates using all its fight and power to grow and take hold. Tries to tell the world it's innocent and its tiny.

Israel gets billions of dollars from the US through aid and a ton of Jewish based companies.

- While Americans are brain washed into thinking this is democracy and gun power is the way.

- Israel grabbed land from Jordan, Syria and Egypt through wars, many started by it, to enforce its own vision of peace.

Tuesday, January 06, 2009 2:43 PM by rizzo

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

@Franz

..."if you consider that the core reason Hamas even exists is the fact that there's no future at the moment for anyone in Gaza due to the fact that there are no economic possibilities"

Here is an easy solution for Gaza/Hamas.  Stop firing rockets into Israel and you'll have a wonderful future with a lot of economic possibilities.

Sounds so simple, yet neither you or Hamas gets it.  I'd suggest to them - try it for 5 years - don't shoot a single rocket and behave in a civilized manner (like for instance Sweden behaves toward Finland) and see whether there is economic prosperity or not.

Tuesday, January 06, 2009 2:45 PM by rizzo

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

@guts.  Egypt get 2.4b a year and yet, the last time I was there, most of the place lived in abject poverty.  So, yeah, not so easy.

Btw, ~100% of usa aid is spent on weapons, which have nothing to do with prosperity.  

Tuesday, January 06, 2009 3:03 PM by rizzo

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

@tony2005

So Somalia and Mauritiania are not Arab, but Muslim.  Does it really matter?

"Israel as a DEMOCRATIC country does not allow any kind of inspectors to their nuclear structures."

It's not signatory to any treaty requiring it to.

"Israel tries to squeeze life supplies from Palestenians"

Stop shooting rockets and you'll get your supplies back.  Israel does not owe anything to anyone, particularly to places that shoot rockets at it.

"Israel grabbed land from Jordan, Syria and Egypt through wars"

All the land was grabbed, as you say, in the 1967 war when these Arab states decided to get rid of Israel once and for all.  Btw, all the land taken from Egypt was given back following a peace treaty.  How's that for an example.  Don't attack Israel and it's all gonna be hunky dory.  Read up on history, dude - it's on wikipedia.

"punish a whole population because some leaders are wild."

I really feel bad for Gazans.  Their current predicament sucks for sure, no doubt about it. However, is there any responsibility for a populace that voted in a known terrorist organization?  Gaza voted overwhelmingly for Hamas in the last election, so they knew what they were getting into.  They voted to continue the conflict. Maybe it was abstract to them at the time, but holy crap, Israel has warned Hamas to stop shooting at it.  

We can go point for point, round for round, but it makes no sense.  The easy, sustaining solution is to stop the rocket attacks on the israelis now and Israel won't have any reason to go into Gaza ever again.  

Tuesday, January 06, 2009 3:44 PM by Rik Hemsley

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

"Israel is in gaza now for the simple reason of stopping the rockets and achieving a ceasefire that will last for a long time."

I don't think many people will argue that Israel shouldn't be doing that. What I think is causing horror around the world is the huge amount of unnecessary suffering caused by the manner in which the offensive is being conducted.

Tuesday, January 06, 2009 3:49 PM by tony

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

"Egypt get 2.4b a year and yet, the last time I was there, most of the place lived in abject poverty.  So, yeah, not so easy."

Egypt has about @85 million people. How much does Isarel have in comparison? Plus Israel gets a lot more from US companies and contributions from Jews all over the world.

"Here is an easy solution for Gaza/Hamas.  Stop firing rockets into Israel and you'll have a wonderful future with a lot of economic possibilities."

While I don't agree with rockets thing, dream on. Israel causes a lot of agression. Your CNN and local paper doesn't show it. Watch Aljazeera or any non Jew controlled media and enlighten yourself.

"So Somalia and Mauritiania are not Arab, but Muslim.  Does it really matter?"

Why don't you drag all other majority muslim countries like Indonesia into the mud? So what is it? Jews against Arabs? or Jews against Muslims? or Zionists againt muslims or Zionists against arabs? or jews against non jews or.. Most people don't know.

"All the land was grabbed, as you say, in the 1967 war when these Arab states decided to get rid of Israel once and for all.  Btw, all the land taken from Egypt was given back following a peace treaty.  How's that for an example.  Don't attack Israel and it's all gonna be hunky dory.  Read up on history, dude - it's on wikipedia."

Do a search on the six day war in Wikipedia and it tells you who started the preemptive strike.

--

If you read the non biased news, they tell you that the Israeli' strikes are also targetting ambulances and hospitals. Just collateral  shameful blindfolded damage across the board. A third of the killed are children.

So how long will it take for Israel to conclude "Ok this is enough".

This post was about Arab land. My question is why is it getting smaller over time? I mean if you don't want peace, the size of land would stay constant and you stick with what you have. But no, Israel grabs more land and claims that it's for its security. So the next step is now they want more to create a buffer for the newly grabbed land which becomes their land over time and the loop continues and eventually they engulfed the whole area.

Tuesday, January 06, 2009 5:23 PM by nraden

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

The brutality of the IDF has tarnished Israel's once sterling reputation for military superiority.

One thing missing from the analysis is that the land called Israel was populated by Palestinians, but is now populated by millions of Jewish immigrants who's ancestors haven't lived there in thousands of years, if ever. The government appears to be a democracy, but it cannot be and maintain its status as a Jewish state. This allows small minorities of religious nuts to have too much say in a coalition and leads to disastrous policies like the illegal settlements. It is also a well documented fact that non-Jewish citizens as a sub-class and receive a disproportionately small share of government money for education, housing and job assistance.

As a Jew, I'm ashamed of Israel.

Tuesday, January 06, 2009 5:55 PM by Israeli

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

Roy forgot to mention the first partition of Palestine Mandate, where Trasns-Jordanian part of Israel was given by Brittish as a present to Beduin clane.

Tuesday, January 06, 2009 5:57 PM by Israeli

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

Roy forgot to mention the first partition of Palestine Mandate, where Trasns-Jordanian part of Israel was given by Brittish as a present to Beduin clane.

Tuesday, January 06, 2009 9:27 PM by Momcilo

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

As a human being, I am proud of Israel and brave Jewish people who live in the middle of hell sorounded by barbarians. It is a very noble gesture that Roy decided to write about the war. I have survived a war (in fact, a few of them) and have no illusions how horrible it is, but sometimes there's no other way to defend your people and family. I hope IDF will finish the job this time.

Long live Israel!

Wednesday, January 07, 2009 12:00 AM by Tyler

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

I appreciate this article. Roy, whose technical talent and blog I respect, admitted his bias and did his best to share with us his points of view and the facts as he knows them under circumstances that are perhaps dangerous and certainly increasingly uncertain.

I respect Frans Bouma's technical talent and have read his blog nearly as regularly as I have Roy's. I tend to disagree with his political point of view in general but not entirely. I think perhaps Frans is a little more heated about the issue. Perhaps he has a personal stake in the conflict as well, but he makes it very clear where he stands. Though comparing the Netherlands and their peaceful relationship with their neighbors with Israel and Palestine is a bit disingenuous, don't you think, Frans. After all, the last time an enemy lobbed bombs into your country, it took an American invansion to save your countrymen. Peaceful negotiation didn't work out very well for the Netherlands then and it hasn't worked for the either the Israelis or the Palestinians.

The sad fact is that there are elements on both sides that do not desire peace and they seem to be sufficiently influential at times to shatter the tentative peace of the seemingly endless cycle of ceasefires and violation of ceasefire terms. And those violations seem to come from both sides in a rather irregular pattern, but predictable as sunrise if you don't try to guess which side will blink first.

There is blame and guilty parties and innocent victims sufficient to condemn and to save both sides. The innocient suffer at the hands of evil men who would further their designs for power and dominance. It is injust to condemn one side without also condemning the other.

No resolution to this conflict will sufficiently address the injustices that have been done to either side. Neither side will be satisfied with any result of peace talks because the men who so willingly set aside the suffering of the innocent to further their own selfrighteousness will continue to subvert the peace.

The only permanent solution for peace is absolute victory for one side or the other. But the world will not stand by and let this happen. It is of course a solution that we cannot stomach. It is a barbaric solution. It is the 21st century and we should be able to resolve our problems without killing one another. Yes we should. But as long as their are men who will shoot into a crowd of innocents to take retribution or to further a political cause, no peace will ever be found.

Wednesday, January 07, 2009 1:02 AM by Elliott Hurst

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

Fantastically informative.  Thank you.  I hope it educates a lot of misguided people.

Wednesday, January 07, 2009 2:28 AM by .

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

Your account of the events of 1967 are the Disney World version of the events.    

I have to admit, I did not read the rest, I skimmed through it.

A detailed examination done by historians as well as declarations made 10, 20, 30 years later by those that launched the counter attack confirm that Israel pulled the trigger and it is not as clear cut as you make it out to be.

I am sure that this is what is being taught to children in Israel, in the same way that children in the US are told the sanitized and cleaned up version of the expansion into America, the Spanish war, the Mexican war and the Philippino war.

In the end, no government wants to teach their children that they have been less than morally  stellar.

Details about the actual loss of palestinian land have been extensively documented.   You clearly have not read the scholar and peer reviewed research on the matter.

Wednesday, January 07, 2009 2:32 AM by Feby Siahaan

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

"My People", that is how The Lord called Israeli,written in the Bible. With these words,it's enough for me to understand that no matter what happen,your country will always survive & protected.

I live in a group of minority, at the largest moslem country in the world. To be honest, most people here hate Israel/Jewish people (for their religous reason)...they should read your blog :)

Cheers

Wednesday, January 07, 2009 10:20 AM by Baggio

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

I've been reading both Ayende's and Roy's posts about the situation.

First of all, I've never lived under a fear of rocket attack or in a refugee camp with limited access to essentials. I can only imagine what the people involved in this conflict are going through.

The blog posts are interesting and both of them have a common theme.

"but at the end of the day, right now, it is trying to defend itself. nothing more, and nothing less"

"I don't really care what the historical context is. I want to end rockets on Israel.

Anything else is not relevant, period"

I think summarizing the entire conflict with these statements is a little simplistic.

Let's just imagine for a moment. Israel destroyed Hamas in Gaza with what they consider acceptable collateral damage. Is it considered a success?

From what I can gather from the news there's growing anger/protests against Israel and her people. What if after Israel destroyed Hamas and however many Palestinians, extremists in other countries start attacking Israeli interests / Jewish people.

Isn't that saving a Jew in Israel at the expense of a Jew outside Israel?

I can only imagine a trial of extremists.

Prosecutor: Why did you bomb the synagogue?

Extremist: As a retaliation for Israel killing women/children in Gaza?

....

Is this an unrealistic scenario? Thoughts?

I'm sorry I don't have the answers but just wanted throw in my 2 cents.

Wednesday, January 07, 2009 7:38 PM by Tony

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

It's a sorry sad situation when so many people are misinformed. It's OK to drop one ton bomb and high tech missiles but it's  a no-no for home made crude rockets. Why the rockets.. read on..

It's dissapointing also when people like Roy are also misinformed. It's doesn't matter when your mind is single focused.

aljazeera.com/.../The_Israeli_propaganda_mainstay.html

Friday, January 09, 2009 6:15 AM by RedSoy

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

Hello,

nice post, I am happy to see someone from one of the sides keeping cold blood to express his point of view.

I have a few questions, that you may find oriented.

- Since the population in 1946 was 80% muslim, don't you think that the establishment of a democracy should have lead to a muslim goverment (on the basis of 1 human 1 vote) ? (sorry to use the religion as a way to identify each "side", but it looks like it is an accurate way of identifying who is who (I'm letting the christians apart).

- I have seen another picture of Israël showing the percentage of muslims over the time, something near to the picture you show. Don't you think that the muslims disapearing could be seen as ethnical cleansing ? (this is probably not the good word, but my english is poor. I don't mean cleasing in the way of killing, but in the way of forcing the people to move out of their homes)

- In your post, you tell that Jews have nowhere to go. Then where do they come from ? The world has changed, we are no more in 1936 (or before, with jews hunt and humiliations by having them living out of the towns in ghettos, like in the Middle-age) and Jews can go and settle anywhere in the western countries. I do not know any nation in the western block who refuses to accept jewish immigrants, as they are usually qualified workers, scientists, etc... Instead of what, Israel keeps doing the opposite, calling the Jews of the whole world to go there and settle.

What is your opinion on this question ?

Friday, January 09, 2009 3:03 PM by Citizen

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

Roy, your truth is not the truth as your Israeli government and also you as one of its evangelists are responsible for a long list of war crimes.

Time has come for us to go on the streets, and no longer to accept the hate campaigns of Israel. Belgian citizens, join the National Demonstration against Israel war crimes on 11 January 2009 14:00 Brussels.

www.11.be/index.php

Monday, January 12, 2009 2:33 AM by Haytham

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

It's good you are seeking truth...

The problem with your evidence is the same as the problem you stated above... which is you are bringing facts without the real context ...

1- you said "British occupation" and occupation means that Country 1 is occupying Country 2... so the rightful owner of the land is Country 2.. right? so who was Britain occupying? Jews land/people or Arab land/people? I'll let you figure the answer :) ... and this's actually the main reason why Arabs refused the UN decision (and Belfour's declaration which you didn't mention ! ) because nobody has the right to take the land from the rightful owners (whether it's dessert or not !) and give it to somebody else...

2- You forgot to mention how 67th war really began, you forgot the political teasing tricks Israel was playing to force Arabs to start the war... as we are speaking about politics now, there is no such thing called "teasing" and hence my not-so-evidence is not valid, that's so right... but I'm just trying to let people "know" what the truth is, because politics is full of lies -as you should already know-

3- for the same security/religion reasons Israel has to continue this fight, Arabs have more powerful ones to die for this land !...

4- it's NEVER been about how big the land is... can you go over ur neighbour's back yard and take a 30x30cm2 out of it to put some crap stuff you have? moreover, can you decide to have that "small" space where they put their TV Set???

I'm telling you, it's never about the size, it's about the value... this land means to Arabs much more what it means to Israel... (not forgetting the fact it's originally Arabian land as I declared above)

5- Somebody mentioned you should support Fatah and not Hamas as they are better partners .. blah blah..  I don't support any... but I can't call Hamas a terrorist organization except if you agreed to call Israel a worse one... Israel killed more civilians than anyone else has ever did !!!! and yet, politicians say "Israel is defending itself" ... that's crap !

6- Isrealians were actually Jews people living somewhere in Europe (or anywhere else) nobody is asking them to actually leave !... those who "bought" a house, actually owns it and has the full right to stay in it... what am I and I think Arabs want is to "destroy" the "Israel Country" so, no Israelian army, no israelian police.. this should all be controlled by Palastians ... and let everybody live in peace there!

Please, if you are seeking the truth, try to know the "real" events that drove the actions...

Peace Upon You

Monday, January 12, 2009 3:14 AM by Ahmed Salah

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

@Haytham, I'm agree with you & you saved me from saying a lot

@Roy, I think one of your Rabbi has other truth that may multiply your words by -1

see:

www.facebook.com/.../video.php

Monday, January 12, 2009 8:29 AM by omar qadan

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

so go and chose some desert land in africa but not in Muslims land of course or in Nivada in USA or in Alska we will never mind at all damn you all

between salivary for Israel and death there is no choice

we chose death of course

Monday, January 12, 2009 6:32 PM by Ahmed Essam

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

I think that the world hated the zion and they want to get rid of them so they put them where they hate, they hate Arabs and Zion, they were right about the fact the both will exterminate each other.

Israel by default is expanding country, this country has no boundaries simply they are seeking for the old big dream from "Nile" to "Eufrat", I hope that you remember that Israel attacked Egypt at 1967 and Israel "Hijaked" Sinai, but Egyptian get them out of Sinai in one of the "unforgettable" battles in history, anyways, we know that Israel will try to look nice as much as they can, but this is will not change the fact that Israel is "cultivated nation" which means, it is not your land, it is Arabic Land you took it by war and some day you will get out of it by war or by peace, I hope that you get it and try to hold on your ideas as much as you can because it will the only thing that will remain to you, I think that the final facing is coming, and it will be the end of it,

remember also that fear makes Israeli army kill without thinking, I think such thing has consequences.

Monday, January 12, 2009 8:01 PM by Alex

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

good article but Iran is not arab

country and they are Persian! different

race and if you read history before 1979

revolution they were friends with israel

still there are lots of Jews living in

Iran. Israeili ex-pm was Iranian same as

ex-defence minister. too complicated I know

but that's the fact.

Tuesday, January 13, 2009 8:02 PM by chiwang

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

hi from china

i support palestine

Tuesday, January 13, 2009 11:53 PM by David

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

Is this how you justify killing 800 ppl?

very shameful!

www.guardian.co.uk/.../gaza-israel-palestine

Saturday, January 17, 2009 7:46 PM by -mika-

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

Your situation is very hard to realize from outside. But I do know say that past wars have effects on children and grandchildren and maybe even further. My family background was more influenced by war against Russia than anything else, and that war ended over 64 years ago. Mostly the war is now forgotten by the people who didn't experience it first hand. But some effects of war last long. Like universal draft army and general attitudes. It will take long before you will have normal business relations across the border.

Monday, January 19, 2009 4:47 PM by modeeb

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

Hi all

This dispute have 3 phases...

The history:

I partially agree with Roy and fully agree with Haytham on his comment at Monday, January 12, 2009 9:33 AM

Both Arabs and/or Muslims on one side and Jews on the other side have ideological and regligious claims on the land of Palestine (Israel), so this land cannot be compared with any other place in the world

Jews, Christians, and Muslims all lived together in peace before the declaration of Israel

The future:

Britain occupied Egypt and they left

Britian occupied Palestine and they left

Jews occupied Palestine and ... ?

Altho I wish for peace, I know that all our discussions won't change the politics, and won't change fate

Scriptures and Quraan have hints about a massive war on the holy land and this might be close to the end of days (Armagedon), the details of which is known only by God

The present:

Where would Jews go if they leave?

1. Where did they live for 2000 years?

2. They don't need to leave, but don't kick Arabs out

N.B: Indians in the Gulf are more than the total Arab population, yet they didn't had an army of their own neither did they claim the land

Tuesday, January 20, 2009 10:26 PM by Anonymous2009a

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

Israel is quite happy to let Palestinian areas prosper as long as they are peaceful toward Israel.  Sadly, the Hamas (and many other Palestinian's) attitude is that of Khan from Star Trek:

---

To the last, I will grapple with thee...from Hell's heart, I stab at thee! For hate's sake, I spit my last breath at thee!"

---

You cannot have peace when one side does not believe in peace.  If the Palestinians (and Hezbollah) were not lobbing rockets, strapping on bombs, and sending teams of gunmen into Israeli towns, then there would be no Wall, no checkpoints, and no military action.  If the Palestinians wanted peace, they could focus on their economy and making good lives for their people. Instead, they elect leaders who focus on spite and hate.  The media and many people speak of the "innocent" Palestinians caught in the crossfire.  I grieve for each non-combatant death. However, do not blame Israel for a "disproportionate" response.  Blame Hamas.  What would have been proportionate?  Israel firing 400 rockets indiscriminately into Gaza? No, instead Israel moved in to try to degrade the capability of the missile launchers. War is messy.  Lots of us forget that.  You try to avoid civilian casualties, but in densely populated areas it is virtually impossible. Israel took 400 rockets before acting.  That is restraint. The innocent Palestinians are responsible for the actions of those haters and violent people they allow to live amongst and lead them.  If the Palestinians stood up for peace and threw out the militants, then there would be peace.

.

One commenter stated that the Palestinians do not have anywhere to go.  Well, they were welcome in Jordan for many years... until they tried to take over the Jordanian government.  The Jordanian response at the time makes Israel look like a pussy cat.

Frankly, after the 1973 war in which multiple Arab nations attacked Israel on its holiest religious holiday, I think Israel should have just annexed the disputed areas as compensation for the unwarranted attacks.

Israel is not aggressive and wants peace.  It is slow to act when attacked (400 rockets), but responds decisively. God bless them.  Stop the rockets, suicide bombers, and gunmen, and Mid-east peace is a no brainer.

Wednesday, January 21, 2009 3:44 AM by Pol

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

Roy, whatever it was or how it comes. War, killing people, is wrong.

And I think it's wrong to mix this politic shit on your good technical blog.

Wednesday, January 21, 2009 5:49 AM by modeeb

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

It is simple fact, any occupation is not accepted and the land ownera have all rights to force it back, no matter how long will it take, and no matter if the whole world accepted such occupation

By the way, the Egyptian British occupation lasted over 80 years and finally Egypt got its independence. There were much longer occupations times in other countries. Israelli occupation is just 60 years old...

Wednesday, January 21, 2009 8:43 AM by nejma

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

your explaining of the maps is actually accurate, but you must admit that arabs are considered second class citizens and really are treated not unlike blacks were treated in america. the settlers are extremely ignorant and dangerous and contantly harrassing anyone come near them, and even come down from where they are making trouble this is a problem for everyone that needs to be dealt with. the idf soldier is 18-21? these are kids given alot of power (see this site) testimonies from ex and some existing soldiers

breakingthesilence.org.il/index_e.asp

ask yourself, if you were living in this prison of palestine how you would feel? really its very stressful even you are not free to go out at night as you want for fear of soldiers, settlers... if you want to go to your relative wedding party... and you live in al bireh, she live in tulkarem .. you must plan to stay the night there because you will not be able to come back in the late night. night raids... that keep the people stressed really and truly you never know when soldiers will come to your door and terrorize your family... they are able to kill you and actually nothing will be done about this and all know it.... this what this does to the father... he cant protect his family it is humiliating... the soldiers come in by banging on the door very hard and many times breaking it down altogether... then they separate family member from the rest of them in another room.. you teenage son for instance, for hours.. you do not know if he is being tortured or being killed its terrifing really ask yourself if you were in the shoes of the palestinian how you will feel... feeling like prisoner in your own land.... knowing that you had sooo much land from your grandfather in say lod or someplace what is now called "israel" land that was in you family for generations and was meant for you and your family but now has many people living on it who didnt pay you for it they just stole it! how would you feel? and the people of gaza do not deserve what they are getting at all, they just want to live their lives in peace and be free a basic human right !!!

Wednesday, January 21, 2009 1:36 PM by Anonymous2009a

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

Virtually all of the "oppression" the Palestinian people have suffered is a reaction to Palestinian violence toward Israel.  Without suicide bombers, rock throwers, and gunmen, there would be no "oppression."

BTW, People get all angry at Israeli security forces for responding to thrown rocks with bullets.  Here is a nice description of the relative threat:

www.usborderpatrol.com/Border_Patrol412b.htm

Again, if the Palestinians refocused their efforts on making the most of what they have, they would be prosperous and welcome neighbors to Israel.

However, they do not seem to want that.  Iran, Syria, and Saudi Arabia do not want that.  Arab countries do not want the Palestinians, but do not want peace either.  They are quite happy (and work hard) to see that the Palestinians are a constant annoyance to Israel.

The problem is their focusing on what they consider to be an unfair partition, rather than building a life for their people in the space they have.  If the Palestinians were good neighbors and economic partners with Israel, I bet more land would be forthcoming and settlements would be dismantled -- they were dismantled in Gaza.

Again, any perceived "oppression" is Israel taking reasonable security precautions against violence that the Palestinians start.  

Calling Israel's security measures "war crimes" or "oppression" reminds me of this old joke:

After being convicted of killing his parents, the defendant said, "Have mercy on me, your Honor. After all, I'm a poor orphan."

Sunday, January 25, 2009 3:32 AM by gordon sunderland

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

Thanks Roy.

This is an incredible situation to be going through.

People here in the US don't have any idea what war is like. They - and I - got a small taste of it at The World Trade Center where I was working that clear, blue morning on 9-11-2001.

I survived. Many colleagues didn't. What I went through and saw that day - people I knew burning alive, throwing themselves out windows 68 floors up - eventually made me ill and it took 3 years for me to be able to work again.

I think about you, what you do and the  circumstances of your life a great deal. As a developer you are a personal inspiration to me. Software development is my passion.

But you are even more of an inspiration as a person. Trying to combat this sickening so-called "world view" that has Israel cast as muderers, butchering their peace-loving neighborhs... it must be so difficult to keep a civil, informational tone on this matter while the world's press deliberately distorts any and all facts it can find in favor of barbaric, death-worshipping cults like hamas and hezbollah who cynically manipulate their own people and have no desire but for the death of Jews.

It's comendable - and unfortunately needed that you do - but you shouldn't have to defend Israel or it's actions with what are well-known, easily proven facts to anyone. Any sane person knows a country cannot tolertate being constantly attacked.

The so-called "Palestinians" suffer greatly - that is a fact. But they are made to suffer by their corrupt, lying, disgusting leadership who preach nothing but hate.

If the "Palestinians" had put half as much effort during the last 48 years into making a decent society for their people as they have trying - and failing miserably - to destroy Israel, they wouldn't live in wretched conditions, they wouldn't have war, they wouldn't be faced with the reality that they have wated generation after generation and accomplished nothing.

I, and many, many others here in the U.S., look to you with the utmost in respect as a developer and as a person. You are an inspiration to us all.

Thanks Roy.

Gordon Sunderland  

Sunday, January 25, 2009 2:23 PM by Andy

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

I guess my question would be what "right" Britain and the UN had to distribute the land in the first place.  It's not as though the indigenous population had any sort of representation in the UN when the decision was being made and were simply outvoted.  The existence of Israel may be a fait accompli, but that doesn't mean it has a "right" to exist.  It simply exists, and the region will eventually have to adapt to that fact.  Right and wrong doesn't really enter into it.

As for Israel being tiny, it's the significance rather than the size.  I suspect if you were to offer the Pope the state of Wyoming in exchange for Vatican City he'd probably turn it down too :)

Thursday, January 29, 2009 3:31 AM by Elamin

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

We are living in a world where the standards of whats is right and what is wrong has been tampered with. Every nation can manipulate the truth and adapt it to make it work for its own benefits. What right Israel has in order to kill innocent people even though the goal is to defend itself? What happened to the international treaties of human rights? I think Israel's claim of being a civilized community within a desert of uncivilized scum no longer persists. the killings of children and old people have uncovered the vile essence of the very existence of Israel.

Monday, February 02, 2009 3:25 PM by Michael

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

Why do we never hear Muslim voices condemning Hamas' actions? Is it acceptable to Muslim society to purposefully launch missiles at civilian targets. In fact this constitutes a war crime and Israel is within its legal rights to defend itself. What would you expect your government to do if you were under attack from missiles? You would expect your army to go in there and fight for you. Hamas initiated the conflict hoping to draw the Israeli army into a urban conflict situation (like the Hizbolah model). Unfortunately terrorist organisations with a death wish only understand force - and that is what they got. As far as killing innocent civilians - the army went after Hamas terrorists hiding behind their civilian population. Real brave Muslim fighters - basing your operations in schools, mosques, UN buildings and even hospitals. Clearly the muslims cannot see past their own misplaced pride and the undeniable fact that after 60 years the muslim world has failed the Palestinians time and time again. Why don't you ask a Gazan where they would rather live - a rat hole like Gaza with no infrastructure and a corrupt government or Tel Aviv where they get a world class health system and an education not built on hate.    

Thursday, February 12, 2009 8:34 AM by Outraged

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

This article is complete and utter BOLLOCKS. First of all Palestine was an Arab country, that they had held for 2000 years, who the hell would agree to an international decision to partition their own country just to let terrorists in?! Thats right terrorists!! The Zionists kidnapped British officers, killed Lord Moyne, blew up the King David Hotel and smuggled arms and illegal immigrants throughout the country! The Arab population was 30million the Jewish population was 1.2million, and yet America bent over backward for the Jews because Truman was worried about losing a goddamn election cos of Zionist pressure in America!

Sunday, February 15, 2009 1:55 PM by enry_straker

# re: [Political] The truth about the Palestinian loss of land 1946 to 2000

I say this as someone who has admired your work in software - and who will continue to admire your work in the future.

1) First, you call the title of your post as 'The Truth..." and yet you mention in your post that it as "... my point of view, based on what the real facts."

That's not really correct, is it?

2) You mention that you are a citizen of israel. That does not promise any balance or unbiased views. ( I say this as a non-muslim, a non-jew but a member and citizen of the world )

3) The british may have ruled the palestinian terroritories but before they came, the palesinians were living, in a majority, for a 1000 years or more.

Just because england ruled that place does not make it english. England ruled lots of places in the world. That does not make any of them english.

4) Just because a part of the territory is desert does not mean it belongs to nobody. Would you claim that the sahara desert belongs to nobody because it's a desert? Would you claim that california doesn't belong to anybody because its a desert? That's downright silly.

5) You mention that the arab population was larger than the jewish. Dude, the arabs were a huge portion of the majority. In 1917, jews owned less than 2.5% of the land.

By omission and vague statements, you distort the truth - and yet, have the temerity to call your post 'The truth...'

6) You mention lots of killing and massacre between the jews and palestinians - and use that as the basis for UN's decision to partition that area.

For centuries the majority palestinians and the very few jews have been living in relative peace. Then a few jews in britain and america decided to use their power over their government to get palestine for themselves.

The UN cannot create a country belonging to an indigenous people. Especially since, in 1940's the UN was basically a tool created by the US, britain and a few of its friends.

No group has the moral right to create a country over the wishes of a large majority of the native population.

7) You mention 'the right side of the map borders with Jordan, which means the UN declared the green right part to actually be jordanian terrotory'

Dude. Just because palestine had a border with some country doesn't make it part of that country. Israel borders egypt today. Would you claim that israel belongs to egypt?

What kind of crazy, half-ass logic is that?

I could go on - but it's rather pointless. There is so many in-accuracies, half-truths and distortions in your post.

Massive State-sponsored violence and genocide can never be the basis for long lasting peace and prosperity. If today you sow violence, one day some bright palestinian kid will invent some weapon of mass destruction and karma will strike.

Who will ultimately benefit? Neither your children nor the children of the palestinians.