ISerializable - Roy Osherove's Blog

I've got to say, it's a long step from a TDD course to knee surgery.  I wouldn't put myself into debt for a workshop unless I knew it would immediately make me more money.  

Now, I agree that $1000 isn't exactly breaking the bank for a well payed engineer, but these are difficult times for everyone.  For comparison, $3000 buys a semester long full course load at many community colleges.  

Personally, for $1000 I would want to be working towards at least some kind of TDD certification.  Otherwise, I think it might be better to bank it for security's sake.

JP and I have a running agreement to provide one free scholarship to any of the classes we teach.  I provide two scholarships.  I'm just that way I suppose.

Wow - you're an ass

$1k? That's barely a drop in the bucket compared to what doctors have to go through. If Roy was in my town and provided that kind of deal, I would happily add to the debt load.

Education is expensive; Expertise is even more expensive.

I think the point of you post is valid. You could, however, have chosen a better comparison to illustrate your point. The problem is that if you don't take the surgery you are going to be worse off. If you don't take the course,  tomorrow will pretty much be the same as today. The motivation factor is not the same.

The second example is better since it illustrates the fact that you might be better off by doing something.

Really enjoyed your book btw. Trying to convince my coworkers to read it as well.

"I've got to say, it's a long step from a TDD course to knee surgery.  I wouldn't put myself into debt for a workshop unless I knew it would immediately make me more money."

"The problem is that if you don't take the surgery you are going to be worse off. If you don't take the course,  tomorrow will pretty much be the same as today."

I think the idea is not to treat such comparisons as realistic, but rather to normalise your thinking between extremes to help decide whether you *really* want to do something or not (i.e, if I really had to find $1000, could I?  if I really wanted to learn web programming, could I?).  Wanting something just enough to complain that you don't have it is a waste of everyones time, including your own;  better to put it into context and decide whether it really is important to you and then either forget about it or work on finding a way to get it.

People are not so binary. You sound like an ass.

Carefuly, Roy. If everyone acted as you suggest, no one would bother going to, say, TDD workshops, because the truth is, you don't need a workshop to learn TDD (or any other technical skill). There's plenty of information online, in books, on IRC channels, etc.

I for one would immediately discard a software developer as less than worth his salt if he felt he needed any sort of paid tuition to pick up new technologies. If you're not learning something new practically every week, you're probably not a good coder.

Love it.

You are correct, there are two kinds of people out there:  people who decide they want something and tell the world how it's gonna be, who they're gonna be, and how they're gonna do it, and those that whimper to anyone who will listen about how life's not fair.  Life is what you make it.

Look at all these excuses and rationalizations.  Pathetic.  If you decide to do something, DO IT.

When you make a choice to do something, that's IT.  You find a way to make it happen.  Don't b*tch to everyone within earshot, keep that to yourself and go around that stuff.  Man up.

This is what separates the people who accomplish their dreams from those who look back on their lives and whine wah wah wah all the way home.

Anyway, great post.

"if you really wanted to do it, you’d find a way, see"

This is true.  But it also points to a deeper truth: people don't "really want" a TDD master class.

And the price *is* high, not just on an absolute scale but relative to other offerings: 4000USD for your class of 20, yet a tenth that gets you 2 hours of pair programming time with Kent Beck.  I think personal time with Kent is going to be far more valuable if you want to learn XP.

Finally, I can't help but wonder if you're doing the same thing your "victim" did: instead of finding ways to get people in your class, you're complaining on a blog.  When somebody told you why he couldn't make it, you didn't get him in your class, you put the ball in his court.  If he doesn't show up, it's *his* fault, no?  Classic victim speak.

I can't believe you are lumping this guy into a "victim" category for a very valid reason for not attending the workshop. It sounds to me like this guy is actually responsible enough to make the RIGHT decision.  He isn't going to spend money he doesn't have on something he doesn't need.

Furthermore, why is everyone always putting labels on people when everything about life is so dynamic and every situation is different for every person every day?

I think "the victim" probably never had any intention of going to the class in the first place - it was "safe" for him to bitch because he had no intention of shelling out anything in the first place. Good job on calling him out though.

This really has cemented the opinion about you that I have been weighing up for some time

*unsubscribes*

For a career, this sounds like a fine motto.

For a life, this is a naive and dangerous view.

Our lives are ruled by random and often cruel forces. As you say, there is much we can't control, but your victim/doer paradigm seems to ignore this reality and places all of the blame on the victim.

Frankly, you sound like someone who has never been blindsided by chance...

Let the talkers talk and let the walkers walk.

You're a walker, he's a talker.

But take that anger and negative energy and criticism elsewhere. It's not like you're so perfect. Nobody's perfect.

Maybe you're good professionally but do you succeed in everything you want in life? If your answer was no, does it mean you don't really want to?

Why don't you become a real doer and not a talker by taking that 500$ and donating it. You were gonna donate it anyway to the guy just to prove a point, so do it for a good purpose and not just to piss someone off, that obviously pissed you off.

Something that shits me is people who put you down for trying to learn.

I'm a web developer and want to move away from doing just web related stuff, and where i work i don't get much oppertunity because im "not an enterprise developer" or so they say.

Work doesn't want to help me learn, so i thought fuck it, i'll pave my own way. Bought a bunch of books to do with patterns, enterprise architecture etc to start reading, and plan on going to see Udi for nServiceBus training when he comes to Australia. (which is about $1700 USD).

So one of the architects at work keeps telling me im wasting my time and money and i wont understand any of it because i have to learn so much before hand etc etc.

So he can tell me its a waste of time and money but offers no support in helping me learn what i need to know to better understand?

Blah real annoying.

I think it's awesome you offered that guy a discount, wish you could come down to Australia and do some training :)

There are plenty of people whinging here about what an arse you are, but i agree with your point.

if you want something bad enuff then you'll go and get it done.  the simple fact that you dont get it done means that you dont want it bad enough (in most cases, natural disasters etc etc excluded).

Some of the responses are unbelievable.

I fully agree with you, and I too would be rather pissed off. You've gone out of your way to help a complete stranger better themselves. But why help someone who won't help themself?

Now a bunch of readers think you are the bad guy because you vent your frustration on your blog. While I don't agree with doing that, I can fully understand why you did, and in a spur of the moment situation I may have done the same.

As for learning about TDD by online materials, books etc. Sure you can do that but the guy in question expressed his wishes to attend the class. If he can't be bothered to go out of his way to do that at a discounted rate, do you really think he's going to pick up a book and read? I mean, he's not motivated enough to listen to someone who has done the hard yards for him, let alone doing it himself.

Some may think you sound like an "ass" but you are fully entitled to. You'd have to be a bigger "ass" if you took offence to the blog post. I think you hit a nerve with all the talkers Roy. Now we can see who they are.

i had a similar rant a while back titled: "i just dont have time to.." : www.sensepost.com/.../1613.html

While i can see people taking exception to the class vs knee surgery argument, i agree in principle.. i.e. almost everything is possible.. people just make different choices.. it would be nice if they accepted their circumstances as a result of their choices as opposed to something forced upon them

offer it to him for free. you fool.

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While looking for information on RegEx use in Excel, someone linked to here and I ended up on this thread.

A first impression of you is you are arrogant and full of yourself. In my world there are victims, doers and holier than thou egotists.

You'd like everyone to think you have done a nice thing going out of your way to offer a discount - pfft - You have done it not because you wanted to genuinely help, rather to feed your insatiable ego - to prove a point.

I find most egotist's lack something in their lives, so sorry for you sir... but you _could_ "do something about".

@FirstImpressionsAreLasting

He did do something about it? He offered a discount, but the guy still whinged and complained, the guy was not willing to do something for himself. So why should Roy bend over for him?

Well said Roy.

Don't worry too much about the negative comments on this post. The "Never try to teach a pig to sing..." quote comes to mind.

Anyway, to balance out the force, I'm subscribing to your blog now! Actually, I was going to anyway, but don't tell them that :)

Without knowing the exact exchange, it sounds to me that you are jumping to a conclusion.

There is something called "Perception is projection" and you seem to be projecting a lot without much information on the other guy or what his situation is.

It is, for example, not easy to spend money on yourself when supporting a family with a big mortgage. Is, for example, such a course more important than the family vacation?

It's quite cynical to assume that people will find a way if you just put pressure on them. I assume you are aware of the Social Darwinistic undercurrents of that perspective when you generalize it like that.

Sounds like he cannot find himself to spend that kind of money on icing his TDD-cake under his present conditions. And that may be a sound judgement and mature decision.

Unless the exact exchange you had with him said more than that, I think your value judgement is uncalled for.

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this post is simply abject, and sounds like a banker selling a 2 million house with a 60 years mortgage to someone that cannot afford it but surely want it (aka a doer ?).

We all know where this kind of practices led us...

you're definitly narrow minded

@James RE:"@FirstImpressionsAreLasting

He did do something about it? He offered a discount, but the guy still whinged and complained, the guy was not willing to do something for himself. So why should Roy bend over for him?"

You totally failed to see my point. Did you actually take time to try to understand what I was saying? My point about being able to do something about it was that Roy could do something about whatever is lacking in his own life rather than posting arrogant rants to feed his own ego.

Where do you see evidence of this in the article? "but the guy still whinged and complained, the guy was not willing to do something for himself." There is no reference to what the guy in question actually chose to do, only speculation as to what he _might_ do.

You come off sounding like a Lemming and need to learn to think for yourself.

var condition = debtFreeLife < roysTDDClass;

if(condition)

Console.WriteLine(" Person attends Roys Clas ");

else

Console.WriteLine(" Person saves up for tough times, learns TDD on his own ");

// Hope Roy can test this..Code would make you understand