Suse 9.1 Experience so far

I stated recently that I do some contract work in Linux from time to time, and that I had recently purchased Suse 9.1.  The installation of Suse 9.1 went very well.  The installation program (YaST) found my hardware, installed the appropriate drivers, found my internet connection, and had me up and running inside two hours.  Once the basic installation was complete, I installed the development tools. Again, everything seemed fine.

Unfortunately, I have to use the vi editor to develop in Linux.  It's not my choice, but basically a requirement of the project that I contribute to.  It took awhile, but rooting around on the web led me to figure out how to edit vi's settings to have syntax highlighting for source code files.  The default syntax highlighting was rather garish, so I just had to change it :). 

One of the things I like to do is develop from my laptop.  I recently installed a wireless LAN, so I'd like to develop via a telnet session. I have a favorite telnet program called Token that I use. This is when the problems began.

I found that I could telnet into my Linux station.  No problem, I thought--I'll just install or start the service. I started the administration tools, found network services, found the telnet service, installed and started it.  I found the ftp service as well, and knowing that I'd need that too, I went ahead and installed/started it.  Click finish, and watch the magic of YaST create a new configuration file. While in the configuration utility, I found the place to install updates from the web.  I figured “Now's as good a time as any,“ and let the auto-update run.  I was liking this distribution more and more.

My internet connection had disappeared.  Further, my samba client could no longer find my windows network.  In fact, when I ran ifconfig (the Linux equivalent of IPConfig in Windows), I no longer had any ethernet service at all other than the local one.  I restarted the network services, but still nothing.

I should say at this point that I wasn't too concerned.  I didn't have a lot invested in this machine yet, so if I had to re-install and start over, it wasn't going to be a big deal.  I tried searching the Suse support database, but first of all they don't have their support articles sorted by product. I couldn't find very much on 9.1--granted it's new, but I shouldn't be finding articles on Suse 7.1 while looking for articles on 9.1. 

Before I did something as drastic as re-install my system, I wanted to check the users groups and see if I could find some help.  I checked my newreader, and found alt.os.linux.suse . For those that are interested, this is my post to that group.

Let me say at the outset that I am not criticizing anyone that tried to help me.  I don't think that anyone has a duty or obligation to help me solve my system problems, and I am grateful for any help that could be offered.  That being said, the quality of the help that was offered was generally not that good.  The first post in response to mine was someone else saying that they had had a similar problem.  In fact, I found numerous threads in this newsgroup claiming problems with Suse 9.1 networking after running new services or upgrades from the web.  At first the people that tried to help asked me to post the results of various Linux commands.  I understood this approach--it's what I call “testing by the numbers.”  After spending a lot of time on the phone with users of my own software, I know how important it is to establish a clear context from which to begin an investigation of a problem.  So, even though I had already run through the obvious steps myself, I didn't mind recreating them for the other users that were trying to help me.  Also, I am admittedly no Linux guru. I've never been impressed enough with the system to try to learn all of its ins and outs. So where I didn't understand what they were getting at, I deliberately showed my ignorance and/or asked questions. Otherwise, I answered their questions with as much detail as I possibly could.  Once I'd gone that far, the help dried up completely.  I checked the other threads that were similar to mine, and the same sort of thing happened.  Apparently, even though I provided voluminous information about my system, setup, and steps I had taken, no one had any ideas.  Again let me say that I am grateful for the help that was offered, and I don't think anyone had a duty to fix my system. It's just that all I've ever heard about Linux is “just get on the newsgroups and you'll find somebody that can help you.”  Wrong. 

After a week of searching for help, and finding only failure, I re-installed.

This isn't a criticism of the people in the newsgroups--it's just a statement that when something hairy goes wrong in a Linux system, you have little or no hope of finding good support for it.  It may be different for individual software packages, but this is system level stuff we're talking about. When Microsoft is constantly criticized by Linux adherents for being buggy and unusable, I would expect better from a Linux software package.  Not really of course: I've used several Linux distributions before this and have generally found them to be playing catch-up to Microsoft Windows; but if I, as a .NET developer, were to hold Linux to the same standards the Linux Community applies to Microsoft, then I would expect better.

As I said, I have side work to do in Linux. Suse 9.1 is supposed to be the latest and greatest. It is the greatest Linux that I've seen so far.  Still, I'd rather be stuck in Windows 98 than be forced to use 9.1 as a primary PC.

On a personal note, I was never a huge Microsoft Windows fan until my job requirements led me to develop in Linux. It was after I started trying to write code in the system and encountering the anti-Microsoft bigots that I became a fan of Microsoft's.  I can write code in C or C++ as well as the next guy.  I can use pointers, create linked lists and trees, etc..  It's because I can do those things that I appreciate so fully what Microsoft has done with the .NET Framework.  I can do those things, but it's a real PITA to do them

I'm not against trying other operating systems and office applications.  I personally do not like Mac's, but I have several friends that just love them. Their love of Mac's seems to be motivated by a genuine love of the computing experience, and less so by a blind hatred of Microsoft. I've used other office applications.  The shared database aspect of Lotus Notes is quite impressive, but I find it severely lacking as an email client. 

I'm starting a new chapter in my relationship with Suse 9.1 now.  There's a chance that what happened was just some kind of fluke. I'll let you know if my impression gets better.

To all of you that work at Microsoft making the software that I love, especially those of you working on the .NET Framework and associated development tools, thank you.

Comments

# re: Suse 9.1 Experience so far

Friday, May 21, 2004 10:27 PM by denny

well I don't think this directly has to do with the loss of internet but IMHO:

Telnet BAD ! EVIL !
FTP WRONG!

use ssh to replace both of them....

if you do not know ssh is Secure Shell
it is a merger of Telnet and FTP inside a SSL sesion.

much more secure from hackers and network scans.

Telnet and FTP are plain text and if you use them someone can very easly copy your logins and passwords etc....

as for VI Gees.... there are at least 5-10 other editors you can use....
I have no clue why they would require VI other than as punishment.... almost like tellingn us to use EDLIN to write with!

# re: Suse 9.1 Experience so far

Friday, May 21, 2004 10:39 PM by Chris McKenzie

lol,

I'll make a deal with you--if you can guide me through setting up SSH so that I can access it from my Windows XP Laptop, and/or point me at a better editor with syntax highlighting, I'm listening. I'm admittedly a beginner at Linux setup and Administration. I still maintain that Linux is difficult to learn, however. :)

# re: Suse 9.1 Experience so far

Friday, May 21, 2004 10:47 PM by Chris McKenzie

Follow up:

It's not so much that vi is the required editor--it's that I can't really use the IDE for development--they have a build process in place that deals with a hierarchical structure of Makefiles. The source files I provide have to fit within that framework. If I had a better editor with syntax highlighting, I'd use it.

# re: Suse 9.1 Experience so far

Friday, May 21, 2004 11:38 PM by denny

well first bookmark this page:
http://www.openssh.org/

and this page:
http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/putty/

and start here:
http://the.earth.li/~sgtatham/putty/0.54/htmldoc/


sorry but I don't have a detailed process but what I did was:

1) get ssh running
2) generate keys -- followed the docs.
3) copy the keys to the pc.
4) get putty started and feed it the keys
5) make a putty setting for connecting to the other machine.

done...

as far as I recall the process was not hard...
just remember that Linux / UNIX likes to hide some files and folders by naming them with a "." as the first character... so your home folder will have some hidden files and folders one of them has the ssl key you need to copy.

as far as editors my comment is just that there are many others to choose from and IMHO VI is so messy...

also you may want to check out stuff like VNC and there are some commercial X Servers for WIndows .... for that I'd be in a VPN session if you do it over the public internet....

http://www.microimages.com/freestuf/mix/
http://www.starnet.com/
http://www.labtam-inc.com/

an "X Server" is like a RDC CLient....

you can run an X GUI app from the remote Linux box and have a WIndow on your "WIndows" desktop for that app... and do cut and paste between that app and local windows app's.

as you like windows this might be just what you want...

# re: Suse 9.1 Experience so far

Saturday, May 22, 2004 12:03 AM by denny

also look at this:
http://x.cygwin.com/

# re: Suse 9.1 Experience so far

Saturday, May 22, 2004 10:20 AM by Chris McKenzie

Thanks for all your suggestions Denny. I dug around a little last night and found a much better editor that doesn't really require a big project space---KATE. I thik Kate and I are going to be good friends from now on. It functions more like an intelligent Wordpad.

None of this is over the public internet though. This is all being done behind a private, firewalled network.

I've tried getting stuff like cyqwin x running before, but it's been awhile. I guess I'll dig into that a little bit today then.

Thanks Denny

# re: Suse 9.1 Experience so far

Saturday, May 22, 2004 3:04 PM by denny

I have used one of the comercial X's before and it worked very well where I was at that time (about 3-4 years back) I am thinking that I may try to run Cyg this weekend as I have some things I'd like to do....

If I get it statred I'll post some info around.

drop me a message for other ideas ... I can be reached from my domain ... email is

denny at figuerres.com

one other thing .... if you get X and SSH running inside a closed network then you can just edit files localy and send them to the Linux box, some other options:

www.textpad.com is a windows text editor that has color-syntax and is way configuratble
many user built syntax files and stuff...
and it can handle all kinds of Text files Mac,Unix,Dos,Unicode etc... HEX and so on....

I have a licence and just keep getting the updates..... been using it for a long time (4-5 years now)

alsoo.... as you are on a private network don't forget you can use SAMBA to share disks, printers and logins.
so Textpad can open a number of files from a samba share and edit them and save them back witht the right idea of what '\n' means for the file you opened...

TextPad is not super big on macro stuff but does have realy good RegEx for search and replace stuff.
and it has "Rectangles" don't know if you have ever had any editors that do that?
in DOS days there was Brief that did them
say you have a block of init code and you want to grab the varibale names? mark a rect and copy it to a new section and paste!
not the whole lines... just the rect of text you selected.

# re: Suse 9.1 Experience so far

Sunday, May 23, 2004 9:59 PM by denny

Cygwin and CYgwin X:

so far one minor problem:

default setup will chose the "Documents and Settings" folder to make your "Home" variable but they have problems with spaces in names of folders....

work around:
1) make a home/username folder
2) edit the /etc/passwd file to point to the new home folder.

that seems to fix a bunch of minor problems I had....

with that chnage I can run the X Server and WindowMaker on an old PII 300 laptop running WIndows 2000 Pro and only 192 megs of ram.
I am getting a fresh copy of Fedora COre 2 to play with so I have not yet tested X forwarding.... ISO of the DVD has downloaded , got to burn it and load it next....

# re: Suse 9.1 Experience so far

Monday, May 31, 2004 5:11 AM by Gazang

I agree with you. Linux has a long way to go in order to compete with MS-Products if it comes to usability. This is true for development tools and as well for user stuff. I am starting to love Microsoft. No problems installing drivers, do problems getting the IDE running and tools that seem to work!!!

# re: Suse 9.1 Experience so far

Thursday, July 29, 2004 12:18 AM by your humble friend in ketchup

I feel you homey. For all of our Linux-type moneys out there - "don't be hating".

Me, I like it when things work. Period. enough said.

# re: Suse 9.1 Experience so far

Saturday, July 31, 2004 5:50 AM by Jason

I use Suse 9.1 for quite a while now. OK, I already got eperience with earlier versions, and I think that it is a step forward. Indeed I agree that there is more available for windows.

The problem is that linux, or more specifically open source software, is refused a fair chance. One of the reasons that Windows is easier is that it is supported by companies who only develop windows drivers. Linux is completely (deliberately, forced?) ignored and computers are only sold with windows (and you pay heaps for it, tough if you already have a windows version). Why does a company make Win/Mac/DOS drivers, but not linux? I bet that there are more linux than DOS users around. Why, in PC Magazine, is Thunderbird voted as best free email program, but is Outlook Express listed as first choice in the overview? Why can't I buy a laptop without Windows preinstalled even if I want to use linux only? Why do magazines publish many Word tips&tricks, but not for Openoffice? These are little things, but they influence people.

Everyone should use the operating system he/she likes, and should not he hindered by unfair trading practises. Not all linux users are religious MS haters.

# re: Suse 9.1 Experience so far

Saturday, July 31, 2004 10:18 PM by Chris McKenzie

I don't agree with your analysis. Nobody is refusing Linux a fair chance. I certainly didn't when I was starting my development career. I didn't know anything about the Linux vs. Microsoft issue 4 1/2 years ago. My negative opinion of Linux comes from using and developing for Linux. Suse 9.1 is better--but there's nothing I can do in Suse that I couldn't do in Win98.

This business about not being able to buy a computer without windows on it is rubbish too. You can buy hardware-only systems all over the web. Many stores don't sell hardware-only systems because most customers won't buy a PC without an OS installed. The OS of choice is currently windows.

As to your questions for PC Magazine, I suggest you take those up with PC Magazine.

As to the reason that magazines publish many Word tips & tricks and not OpenOffice--it's simple--Word is widely used and the magazine is trying to sell copies of its magazine. It doesn't take a marketing genius to figure out that a magazine is going to try to print articles that are relevant to most of its target demographic, and that this policy will result in increased magazine sales.

The comments about unfair trading practices are barely worth comment, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you are not a religious MS hater. Microsoft hasn't done anything that thousands of other companies don't do every day--except be better at it than everyone else.

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