uber1024's WebLog

It's not hot wings and beer, but it's still okay

One guy's view on H1-B visas

I know this is a touchy subject, as well it should be.  I'm going to try to approach this from the perspective of a technology executive who is a US citizen and who has worked in the tech industry since 1999.  For those who know me, you know that this is not a difficult point of view for me to have.  Next time I will write a blog entry from the perspective of a dude who likes watching football and drinking beer ... also not a difficult point of view for me to hold. 

The situation in New York City might be different than the situation in Witchita, Kansas, so keep in mind the fact that most of my career has been spent in NYC and my entire executive career has been in this technical gene pool.  Also keep in mind the fact that I'm not really trying to represent the industry as a whole, the industry leaders, or the college graduate looking for his first job.  I'm trying to represent my own views that have crystalized after sitting on both sides of the interview table dozens of times.

My position is simply that the H1-B visa quota is good, but needs to be raised pretty significantly and maybe be made a little more reactive to the needs of the industry.  It's good because there needs to be some effort made to protect US citizens.  After all, that's the purpose of laws and governments.  We might not always be happy about that, but it's the truth.  I wanted to move to Korea and work there for a while, but I found their laws to be exceptionally protectionist and xenophobic so I don't find the US laws to be draconian at all.   

However, having been in the industry during the 2000-2002 dot com shakeout, I realized later that this was actually the best thing to happen to the tech industry in a while.  There were a lot of people who washed out of the industry in that time and the vast majority of them deserved to.  This is a highly-paid field (even with foreign competition dragging down salaries a bit) and, as such, we need the best people we can find in it.  My company recently raised our rates to $150 an hour for our technology department (we don't see that $150 an hour, in case you're wondering) and our clients expect to get their money's worth.  Now, as the leader of the department it's my job to make sure that our programmers are worth that $150 an hour that our clients are paying. 

And that's where we come back to the H1-B visas.  At a time like this, competition for the best developers is tight.  I'm trying to hire another developer, for example, and the resumes I've been getting are crap.  They're not "just okay," they're complete crap.  I'm not talking about "I just graduated from college and I'm going to try to be clever in my resume design no matter how many people tell me it's not a good idea" kind of resume.  I'm talking "I don't have any clue what I'm doing and I'm going to document that fact in resume form" kind of resume.   I met a programmer from South America who just knocked my socks off.  She is an outstanding developer, she's well-liked by her peers (ie, she's a great team player), and she's showing signs of developing strong leadership skills.  Basically, she's a top-notch candidate for a mid-to-senior level developer role ... exactly what I'm trying to hire.  Unfortunately, I can't.  It's difficult to understand why we would want to keep a smart, productive person from moving to our country, contributing to the economy, and paying taxes.  I understand that this is the way it is, but it needs to change.

I'm trying to hire someone, and US citizens are always easier to hire for many reasons (less paperwork, shared background, familiarity with the American way of doing business).  But the pool of US citizens is poor right now.  The best people have jobs and are happy there.  Scraping the bottom of the barrel is not an attractive business option.  If I know someone who is interested in moving and working here that would be a perfect addition to my team ... why shouldn't I be able to hire her?

As a developer, I remember lots of my colleagues being upset as Bill Clinton continually raised the cap on the number of H1-B visas that were available each year.  I tried to understand why, and it always came down to one of two reasons.  The most common reason was that the people in question flat-out sucked as developers and knew they were not capable of dealing with the competition.   The second, definitely less common but still heard often enough to appear on my radar, reason was xenophobia.  By which I basically mean "racism."  I'm not even going to dignify that sentiment with a rebuttal because it's ridiculous.

 I think there's a middle ground here.  There were proposals to have the visas be capped but with provisions to increase the cap if necessary.  The EB-2 visa has provisions built in that allay the fears of many.  To sponsor someone for an EB-2 visa, you have to be able to prove that you attempted to fill the job with a US citizen but were unable to do so.  Maybe this is an idea that can be applied to H1-B visas.  It would certainly make it easier to bring in talented people to ease tight labor markets and would also help US citizens find jobs during tougher times.

I'll note here that I'm not really involved in setting salaries for my programmers.  That's the operations department.  I just let them know how good a candidate is and they make the offer.  We have one programmer here who is H1-B and I know that she is paid the same as the US citizens.  She's my best programmer and I wouldn't have her paid any less than she's worth.  The other thing to note, salary-wise, is that my current programmers are going to pay the price for the exclusion of talented foreign workers.  They're going to have to cover the slack from the missing developer role while I interview retard after retard.

 I'll finish this off by saying that I realize that the problem that many people, including me, with the current system is not the immigrant workers themselves ... but the abuse of the system by large companies.  I agree that this is a problem, but punishing companies who work within both the spirit and the letter of the law, and punishing future US citizens is really not the way to go.

 Hopefully this entry provokes some thought.  I'm sure it's going to provoke some reaction.  Whatever your opinion on the matter, I ask two things.  The first is to think about why you feel the way you do.  REALLY think about it.  Look in the mirror and ask yourself why you feel that way.  I did, and I didn't always like what I realized.  The second is to at least make an effort to be civil when discussing this topic with people.  I've found an ENORMOUS amount of ignorance about immigration laws, visas, and the state of the industry and country when discussing immigration.  It's a hot-button issue, politically, these days but I wanted to focus more on the high-tech workers and not the low-paid, under-the-table illegal immigrants that most people think about when they think about immigration.  I hope that this entry has offered a perspective on this topic that helps people understand the issue.


Mikos Andres said:

I am Greek and been in the US for the last 4 years on a student visa pursuing a PhD in a top US university. I have had so much problems getting an H1b even when a company is willing to pay me 2x market rate.

The company's product launch is delayed and they are losing millions of $. I hope people like Lou Dobbs wake up and smell the salts.

# July 8, 2007 9:26 AM

Dee said:

What blatant piece of propaganda.  Clearly this is a pre-designed piece to encourage raising visa limits which is counter productive to the US Economy.

If you like foreign labor so much, move to a foreign country.  Give me 30 minutes notice and I'll drive you to the airport.

You're doing no service to your country, so it's best if you just leave.

# July 8, 2007 11:42 AM

uber1024 said:

I wish this were propaganda.  I really believe what I'm saying.  I think that bringing in the brightest minds from around the world and hopefully letting them become US citizens is good for everyone.  

Globalization already happened, and it happened back in 2000 when we (US companies) paid to lay fiber optic lines around the world.  That is what enabled us to outsource, and that's where things changed.  I just figure that if we've gone this far, let's go the distance.  At least my way keeps a lot of the money here in our country.

The "if you like it so much better somewhere else, then leave" argument is a bit thin.  I used to hear that from my hardcore Republican friends back in 2004.  I'm still here.  They're still here.

I, personally, am not scared of the competition.  I'm an American and we don't run and hide from things that scare us.  We face them and figure out how to make them work to make our (and hopefully everyone's) lives better.

# July 9, 2007 8:30 AM

David R. Longnecker said:

Your comments hit right on the head and give me something to think about.  While most executives hate to admit it, sometimes, the "best talent" is not always home grown from USA soil.  There are highly intelligent, capable workers from all over the world that our industry should be looking to recruit... and before someone else does.

To those unnamed who rant about moving away "if you don't like it" and such, I don't believe you can move away from the world anymore (I hear the moon is a bit chilly this time of year).  Interactions with all ethnicities, whether you're working side-by-side in the office or teleconferencing across the globe.  

For those of us who actually live in Wichita, Kansas (grin), nepotism and racism are real and unfortunate parts of most corporate agendas--in almost all business sectors.  I've seen it in interview panels, in the press, and from my peers.  Do I think that will change?  Maybe, but the younger generation (and the olders who are tired of the attitude) simply move away rather than fighting to change the "good 'ol boy" system.

Thanks for taking the time to post this up, I hope more readers take a moment to consider your questions. :)

# July 9, 2007 9:21 AM

Mikos Andres said:

Double You Bee - your questions are very valid and thanks for engaging in a sober and dignified conversation, rather than stooping to the level of people like "Dee".

They, like their god, Lou Dobbs have made up their mind and will look only at what validates that opinion and ignore anything that evidences against it. Reasoning with such people is a lost cause.

My only refrain to such anti-H1b people is to ask them to startup their own companies and then try to hire people ...then and only then would they have a real idea of what the situation is. Instead of the tired old rant of "cheap labor"  , "greedy corporations" and so on....I ask people like Dee to see it for themselves. It is very easy to be an armchair  general or Monday morning QB...

# July 9, 2007 2:54 PM

Will said:

Very good points.  If I were in a managerial role, having to fulfill obligations to customers I would want the best people working on the project that I could find. I don't care if you are from the US, India, Korea, Iran, South Africa, or even Mars.

I've heard of numerous companies that get burned by choosing to outsource because they don't fully research the firms they deal with.  "It's cheap & there is good technical talent in India so it's a no-brainer!"  That is a different topic entirely.

# July 9, 2007 6:49 PM

Steve Weeks said:

You're an idiot.  80% of H1-B's go to so-called "category 1" people - little or no technical skills.  So you want to increase H1-Bs to bring in more people like that?  The ONLY people this will help are corporations and the wealthy.  Check your facts.

# July 10, 2007 12:30 AM

vj said:

very good post. because of H1B shortage, microsoft is opening a development centre in Vancouver, backyard of seattle, wasted economics to Seattle

# July 10, 2007 1:03 AM

Ben said:

Here is my perspective. I taught myself to program in 2003. Since then, I developed software for public schools, on my own. I am now going to college for a bachelor's degree in Information Systems. I would probably fall under the heading of one of those you call "retards". Although I have spent at least a couple of thousand dollars on books, I don't know everything. I want to learn, and I want to work in the field that I have grown to love. However, I am not one of those best and brightest, IMO. I want to be, and I am working hard every day to be. I have learned Algebra and Geometry so I can do well in school. Even with all of this, I would never get a job at any normal business. Fortunately, I have found a job, but I know that this opportunity is rare. And because of the exploitation of foreign workers, getting more rare. I don't have any problem with people coming to work here. I just think you are the exception, and not the rule. You may pay your workers well regardless, but there are companies that avoid U.S. workers so that they can pay less. That leaves me wondering what the future of my career will be if I ever decide to change jobs. Maybe now the problem isn't huge, but what about in 5-10 years? I hope you understand the point I am trying to make.

# July 10, 2007 2:26 AM

DaveT said:

I wish they would put the H1B program in place for plumbers. Minimum 1 hour job is now $250/hr. That's much lower than the $150 you are billing at.

# July 10, 2007 2:40 AM

brc said:

As a previous holder of a H1-B visa, I'm perplexed as to what the fuss is about.  I worked in the USA from 1999-2000 when dotcom companies sucked up all available workers.   Everyone I worked with accepted me as an equal and I didn't hear one complaint about me 'taking someones job'.   In fact when I decided to leave the USA to return home, they were perplexed as to why I didn't want to stay.  Never did I hear any negative reactions, nor did I read about them in the press.   7 years later, there is a storm of controversy around the very same visa I was on.  What has changed since then?  The employment market is tight now as it was back then.  Why are the American people becoming inward looking and unfriendly to potential immigrants?  Beats me.

# July 10, 2007 3:15 AM

Adrian Pure said:

I hate to say it pal.  But most of my friends in college who I programmed games with in high school are not becoming programmers now because of this.

You should dance with the americans that brought you here, the reason why you cant get any good americans is because you would have to pay more than the market rate.  I know this makes life hard on you, but it is not our fault and we should not have our wages go down more because of it.

I know you dont mean harm, but if I can make more as a welder than a programmer why would I want to be a programmer?

No the best minds do not all come from america, but I guess you have to decide if you want to sell out the people who live here, were born here, and built this country for people that did not.  I dont hate them, I dont want to hurt them but they should encourage growth in there own countries.  How is it fair to india where they pay for there college students for american companies to steal there talent?

# July 10, 2007 9:00 AM

uber1024 said:

I'd like to call special attention to this last comment by Jack Slecht.  This is exactly the kind of thing that needs to be addressed because he is pretty far from the reality of the situation.  He's also confusing the "illegal immigrant" issue with the "not enough tech workers to sustain the level of economic growth that we'd like to see."  Also please note the 9/11 reference.  As a New Yorker, I'm pretty tired of seeing 9/11 used to justify every problem that people mistakenly see in our country.  

Also please note that I'm not going after the US educational system.  I think it's a fine one and the vast majority of the smartest people I know came through it.  Most of us came through the public school system and went to a public university.

As for the  guy who's upset because he's self-taught and has to compete in today's workplace against better educated people from around the world ... I feel for you.  I really do.  But it's a competitive world out there and it's only going to get worse.  You've got exactly the right attitude and the self-confidence will come with time and experience.  I agree that it's difficult to compete in the tech industry without a degree.  It's just a fact.

I'm not saying that no one gets cut slack any more, I'm saying that the landscape is changing and we either have to change with it or become irrelevant.  I'm choosing to move forward to the next stage of our country's economic history, and I'm hoping that it's a great one.

# July 10, 2007 9:02 AM

Willy Jack said:

The problem with this business is we have too many project managers who have never written a line of code.  Bring the programmers in.  Send the project managers to India.

# July 10, 2007 9:05 AM

uber1024 said:

Adrian Pure,

I'm from Pennsylvania, so I guess the "Americans who brought me here" would be my grandparents, two of whom were born here and two of whom immigrated here 80 years ago.

Also, I'm certain you and your friends will make fantastic welders.

# July 10, 2007 9:16 AM

uber1024 said:

Let me also state, for the record, that this isn't about India.  I'm not from India.  I don't really know anyone from India.  I've never been there.  I'm not even really all that interested in the Indian economy.  I know why you guys are all so focused on India, but let me assure you that this is not what I'm talking about or even interested in.

The only thing I care about less than the economy of India is Bruce Willis.

# July 10, 2007 9:22 AM

Nish said:

There are companies that bring H1B people only because they work for cheaper rates.

And then there are companies that bring in highly talented and highly-paid H1B employees simply because they are good.

Most of the anti-H1B people presume that all H1Bers are in the first category. Most pro-H1Bers talk as if all the H1bers are in the latter category.

Reality is there are both kinds of H1Bers here, and it's not even a binary situation. The quality and ability of H1B employees would be a distribution from those who are highly brilliant to those who are really useless.

I think people should try and stop making one-sided black and white opinions on this issue.

# July 10, 2007 10:09 AM

Frank said:

Fundamentally, the salary issue is caused by the government. They are so slow in the Green Card process, and locking the H-1b employee to the company for 5 years. This enables the company to treat the H-1b employee differently. Comparing to Canada, it takes 1 year only for Green Card approval.

Don’t blame employers, blame Feds.

# July 10, 2007 10:39 AM

Jes said:

I think this issue is about significantly more than just H1B workers.

I am a developer who graduated with a degree in Computer Science in the dead economy of December 2002.  Nobody was hiring entry-level developers then, and I had to train myself (outside of college and with my own money and time) in valuable skills to even have a chance of breaking into the industry.  Many talented Americans at this point in time went on to other careers instead of software development, and I seriously considered that, myself.  My two younger brothers chose different majors in college and are now in other engineering fields.

If we fast-forward to now, there are still a ton of employers who think that they can still get top talent without having to train people or search hard or pay much.  I say wake up and smell the new year; it isn't 2003 anymore.  If you aren't getting good resumes, try different searching tactics, different business strategy options, better pay scales, or actually consider training people.  Stop blaming the government policies for all your internal issues and start adjusting to the fact that the world doesn't stay the same all the time.

# July 10, 2007 10:52 AM

James said:

I'm all in favor of bringing the best and brightest to America.  One of the best and brightest programmers with whom I have worked was Korean.  That was about 10 years ago.  Other than that, I only have experience with Indians on H1-B's.

They seem to be experts on creating great-looking resumes that show all the right things. Much better than those retarded American programmers (like me).  Unfortunately, it's been my experience that most of those resumes are complete and total lies.

I have worked with a few Indian programmers who were qualified to do their jobs. I have worked in a company who outsourced most of their IT department to India...and, 6 months later, those new programmers had not managed to write any usable code.

I have also worked with an Indian who was obviously (to the rest of the team) extremely junior. It WaS eaSieR to TranSlaTe hiS becaSue emaIl eNgliSh sO bad waS than tRy tO taLk. He had to have everything explained, step by step, in great detail, every single time anything needed to be done. He either could not comprehend or just didn't care about internal coding standards.

He was a complete idiot, but, hey, part of being a senior developer is mentoring the newbs, right?

Anyway, I was really offended to find out later that he was being paid 50% more than I. I guess that's more evidence that  one of those retards.

I really don't believe the problem is H1-B quotas, one way or the other.  The problem is that, for the most part, retards are making the hiring decisions.  (I'll assume you, along with google, and *possibly* Microsoft, are one of the exceptions, uber1024).

# July 10, 2007 11:11 AM

Gmarian said:

Very well written.  I love your frank tone.  I've had many discussions on forums regarding the H1-B visa "issue."  Many tend to blame H1-B visas on their difficulty in finding work.  To me this only proves that they don't belong in this line of work.  

Having taught IT for 2 1/2 years, I totaly understand the sad fact that many, many people rushed to work in IT with dollar signs in their eyes.  Unfortunately, if you don't love what you do, you'll always have reasons to complain.

I've had two rough patches in my career.  After I was laid off from the teaching gig, I sat down an reevaluated my interests.  I realized that while I love teaching people, I don't want to be a full-time teacher.  I simply don't have the enough love for it to deal with the headaches that come along with it.  This is when I realized that IT, and specifically programming, is my true passion.  If it came down to accepting a less than exciting position just to make ends meet, IT is the only industry I'd want it to be in.

uber1024:  In your opinion, what can be done do deal with the perception, and sometimes reality, that companies are using H1-B visas as a cheap source of labor?

# July 10, 2007 1:17 PM

bwilhite said:

I enjoyed the post very much Uber1024.  I notice that many of the most recent posts seem to be turning this into a race issue.  It's too bad that their brains probably shut down before you admonished them to really think about why they feel the way they do.  

When it comes down to it, I think most people want to be taken care of like children, and they hate to compete.  They want the world to comfort them and make their life easy.  As much as I would like that myself, that's just not reality.  

I find the comment about needing to pay quality Americans 'above market rates' particularly amusing.  Markets are markets are markets, and complaining about it doesn't and never will change anything.  The only thing that will change your situation is you.  

(Off soapbox.)

Anyway, thanks for the thoughtful post; and I'm an American by the way.

# July 10, 2007 5:17 PM

nzgeek said:

awesome post.....

can someone post a few links to h1b sponsors in us?

# July 10, 2007 6:23 PM

BT said:

Nice article. BUT if you're an h-1b never...Never...ask your company to sponsor you for a GreenCard...if you do...

the process is VERY time consuming...you will never get promoted...and you will never get a raise. If the company decides to sponsors you for GreenCard..they will turn you into a puppet (cheap labor, over-time, work on the weekends...etc) in return for the favor... Trust me all my legal alien friends, this is the truth...

# July 11, 2007 2:35 AM

Jack Slecht said:

To  uber'1024:  I have to say I am not confused at all.  Our government is broken, which is the point you missed.   I have worked with Indian and American programmers.  One Indian programmer was terrific and helped me more than any American programmer ever.  I was educated in public school and was lucky to go to a small state university and so I am not looking down on public education.  However, with a population of 300,000,000 people, I find it hard to believe that there are not enough qualified people to meet the needs of American companies.  If so, then our educational system is not producing the people needed by industry.

# July 11, 2007 1:28 PM

Raindog said:

I'm a bit late to this but I thought I would comment anyways.

I see a few comments being made by industry, the first is that there are not enough H1-B's available, and the second is that there is a shortage of tech labor not only in america, but the world. If the second is true, more H1-B's will not solve any problems because there will not be people to fill them.

Secondly, at the company I work for (a software giant), not a single h1-b I know (~10 from various countries) receive higher wages than I do but *all* of them have both better education and substantial industry experience whereas when I was hired, I had an unacredited degree and was fresh out of school(I still totally rock however). In fact, I don't know a single H1-B that does not regret coming to the states because although their salary is 4x higher in the US, the quality of living that gives them is substantially less. (Think 400k US condo vs 50k foreign house).

The only thing I see the companies like MS, Google, IBM, et. al. getting is remarkably talented labor at lower salaries.  When M$ creates an office in vancouver, it's not for talented labor so much as it is for cheap labor.

Think about what the skilled technical worker does when they enter the CS and related fields. They have just entered a lifetime where they will work 60+ hours a week (inelligble for overtime due to labor laws, look up salaried overtime), forced to learn new skills every year or become unemployable and work in an environment with tight deadlines and ignorant non-technical management that think they know best. Compare that with a welder, parks and services lawn mower( I know one making 50k + a year driving a damn riding lawnmower), Utility lineman (the ones here made 100k+ in *overtime* alone) and it's really easy to look at the unrewarding, unrecognized life of a software engineer and say peace out homey. When a skilled software engineer is looking at job listings and finds positions paying 30k-70k (Or 24k at U-Haul) a year, who in their right mind would want to apply for that position. Also, qualified US developers want what I like to call "real" market salary, not a salary that is a few thousand more than the H1-B average.

Additionally, for a developer that has found a nice place of employment, it is *really* risky to move because they are not guaranteed that their co-workers in their new job will be able to discern their heads from their asses (WorseThanFailure.com -> ignorance is rampant) , it's just as important for a qualified developer to be surrounded by qualified developers as it is for a business to hire individuals that are competant in the first place.

Bottom line is this: When I see calls for more H1-B's, I view it as corporations lobbying for easily exploitable cheap labor

# July 11, 2007 9:29 PM

Mikos Andres said:

Jack Slecht:

" If so, then our educational system is not producing the people needed by industry."

That is precisely the problem. Go to any top rated graduate EE/CS school in the US, the vast majority is non US born. Chinese, Indians, Koreans, Eastern Europeans predominate.

I am at MIT and study High Performance computing, and in this domain hardly any "Americans" can be found in the top schools and that is just a fact! Check out Stanford, UT, G/Tech, Harvard and the story is the same....

I have a company that is desperate to hire me and they are unable to. They have offered to setup shop in Montreal and move me (and bunch of others) there.

I respectfully ask all the anti-H1B ("cheap labor") crowd to start their own company and see what the situation is, or open their eyes to reality.

Just like everything else in life, I am sure there are companies which abuse the system and use H1b to pay lower wages, but that calls for strict enforcement. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

# July 12, 2007 11:56 AM

Jack Slecht said:

You then must be in agreement with me in that our educational system is not producing people to secure acceptance into the top US schools, and as far as I am concerned something is truly wrong.  I guess as far as you are concerned, let nature take its course and someday when our high tech base has almost totally eroded, then the US will be poorer and no one will want to come here.  On the other hand, few will want to live here, either.  I think our educational system should at least try to meet this challenge.  If it does not this country will be noticeably poorer than it is now.  Incidentally I did check out MIT and according to their own site 25% of the students are international.

# July 12, 2007 5:11 PM

Mehdi said:

Across a mushrooming worldwide collection of programmers, this is literally like looking for a needle in a haystack. It's the technology growth that makes the people (the programmers) so lazy, they are not willing to learn and practice any more. Back in the old days, I remember those who couldn't create a "Simple Window" under 16bit-Windows since they had to know the subtle nuances of how Windows worked. Today, you open-up the compiler, and you almost do anything visual. There are also many code-generators out there, which simplifies the code-generation process, and makes the people more and more lazy. So how many people out there are willing to learn new technologies from the ground up?

Believe it or not, back in 2000, a friend of mine has been hired there as an ASP developer in an IT company. (He had no knowledge of programming). He was paying me for almost one year to do his assignments and the company never found out what was going on in the backbone!

Anyway, I wish that US government have a second look to what you mentioned. This way, I could leave Tehran, the capital of Iran to US ASAP. :)

# July 15, 2007 7:19 AM

Edgy555 said:

While I appreciate the thoughfulness of the essay, I disagree strongly on nearly every point made.  Here's my position:  the H1-B program distorts the US market for technology.  Why do you think US-born students are not choosing to study engineering?  The long hours?  The relatively low pay?  The lay-offs?  The outsourcing?  All of the above.  Why study computer science when you could get a law degree?

It would be one thing if the entire world were free-market.  If firms in India had to compete for talent against firms in the UK, US or Canada, but that's not the way it is.  Firms in India pay exceptionally low wages and basically export their employees to the US.  Don't believe me?  Why are 4-5 of the top H1-B visa sponsors from India?

Finally, there's a very simple answer to the reasons why people like Mr. Gates and Mr. Ellison are pushing for more H-1Bs -- money.  The fact is (and this is backed up by some fairly prominent economists) that H1-B visas depress the wages of technology workers in the US.  Mr. Gates, Mr. Ellison and uber1024's company don't want to pay, so they support a fairly broad system of low-cost imported labor.

# July 20, 2007 4:19 PM

uber1024 said:

Not sure where everyone automatically assumes I'm talking about Indian developers here.  Truth be told, the people I was thinking about are Brazilian.

# September 30, 2007 8:14 AM

Unemployed American Electrical Engineer in Cleveland said:

Okay now I have a question for all of you experts.

I was born and raised in Cleveland.  I have an electrical engineering  degree yet I can not convince employers to give me an interview.  At first I thought maybe my resume and experience was bad, but I have gone to three separate resume and job hunting workshops.  According to them my resume and experience are good.  Very few problems on my resume but I made the changes.  I still can not get interviews, in or out of Cleveland.

Not too long I talked to an engineering manager.  She is Mexican, not sure of her citizenship status.  She had talked about her company had hired a Korean and Venezuelan as engineers.  One was away at college.

Oh my God, I have tried for years to get an job at this place.  Here I am, sitting with 4 1/2 years of Design Engineer experience and 1 year of Electronic Technician experience.  I get passed over by students--students that are not American citizens.

So I ask anyone, how is this possible?  Do companies get government subsidies to sponsor VISA workers?  I tell them I will work at entry level pay.

It baffles me that an employer will not at least interview me, since I have  experience and the good college degree.  I fail to understand why employers find reasons to disqualify me and end up hiring far less experienced people that are not American citizens.  What is going on?!

# May 12, 2008 2:15 AM

dittohead said:

uber1024 is the biggest dork, retard in this country.

You are being Anti-american by not hiring american people.

You deliberately go out of your way to make american people look stupid so you can hire Indian H1bs.

You are happy because you are a manager!  But wait!  

H1Bs when they become citizens are not going to work as a slave for you!   In the future they will become managers.

You are thinking about only yourself... white man!!

White man;; says... As long as I am on top, I don't care if I have a 1000 slaves work for me!

However, in 20 30 years.. when americans can't find jobs because of people like you.  Indians will be managers and your sons (white dudes) will work for them (may be) or they won't be able to find jobs.. because americans are "retards" remember.  

H1bs will go for more H1bs.

So where does that leave Americans ... NoWHERE!

Stop being Anti-American.

Someone said it perfectly right.

If you want to do business in America you must give preferance to American people.. don't just act like you tried and go for H1bs.

I can't agree more with the above post "UNEMPLOYED AMERICAN IN CLEAVELAND WITH EE DEGREE"

Hey dude, I 'm in the same boat and I'm in the Silicon Valley and I'm Indian born here!!

I'm an electrical Engineer and I have applied for 70 jobs and not one interview  .. not even a phone interview.

Yet my cousins who nonchalantly come here to study master's in EE, lands a kick ass job in Nvidia and now Cadence no problem.

He hasn't even finished yet!! The company is getting him an H1B in place of his student Visa.


# June 23, 2008 9:47 PM

niraj shah said:

sir i m graduate fropm njcu in finanace pluse scinece degree and Teacher certificate from NYC last 4 years teacher in NYC present status F-1visa Wanted sposor for H-1  I agree youe payment and other terms

niraj shah[551-689-1783/4 2012396260

# February 20, 2009 11:05 AM

America's Choice said:

Fill American jobs with American born workers first.

" It's not personal, Sonny. It's strictly business."

# February 23, 2009 10:11 AM

debug said:

I just hope you get laid off and you have to compete with cheap foreign labor.  Nobody is that good.  Everybody is expandable.  You are one reason why there are a lot of Americans that are unemployed, shame to you for calling yourself an American you collaborator.

# March 11, 2009 1:18 AM

uber1024 said:

I would ask that, before you post a frothy flaming retort to this post, that you actually READ the whole thing.  Notice that nowhere do I advocate shipping jobs overseas.  Notice that I also advocate paying H1-B workers the same as American workers.  I am saying "Let's get the best people for this job and hire them."  If you're not the best person, I don't really care where you're from, you are NOT getting hired.

# March 12, 2009 11:19 AM

boogaloo said:

uber1024 - "Notice that nowhere do I advocate shipping jobs overseas.  Notice that I also advocate paying H1-B workers the same as American workers."

When the laws of this country reflect that statement - then you can tell me how great the H1B program is, until then shut your stupid ignorant hole. This entire thing is about cheap labor that displaces american citizens from their jobs. You're a complete idiot. People like you amaze me - are you a US citizen? You should be charged with Treason...

# March 14, 2009 1:22 AM

BillyBob said:

Hello - saw a report on CNN about how India's economy seems to be doing well.  No recession there... hmmm....  Wonder how that is occurring.  Because greedy American businessmen are more concerned with the nest two fiscal quarters than the American economy.  I am a Oracle DBA and have been for 18 years.  I have worked at companies that ship support overseas to India-based companies.  It is an immediate drop in service quality and capabilities - but who cares.  Those next two quarters will show a profit, and the boss, or whomever, goes elsewhere and does it at another company.  I have worked with many H1B's that are ok - but have yet to see one that rises above the rest.  It simply is not right for American-born workers to be out of work, losing everything, having credit scores wrecked, etc., when H1B workers are here with jobs.  Takes up more government resources.  When we are in the economic slump that we are - the jobs should belong to American citizens first.  The rest is elementary.

# March 17, 2009 10:41 AM

BillyBob said:

It quite simply is done to increase the bottom line, irregardless of the output of the company.  It should be viewed as a financial MISTAKE by CFO's everywhere.  It never works out for anyone but the people making the cheap profit.

# March 17, 2009 12:37 PM

Bill said:

DONT be naive,, its not about the best for the JOB is about the MONEY...........

# March 23, 2009 10:49 PM

Bill said:

BillyBob,  I agree.. greed has put our economy where it is and the people who benefit the most are foreign born and a few american scam artists...............Bill Gates, Oracle, IBM, DELL, American Banks...........most anyway have gone the path of outsourcing in everyway possible at the Tax Payers expense.... "Land of Opportunity" ............. until the masters decide we are no longer relevant............

These companies don't remember what made them great... So goes GM so to are the days of the US Tech worker..... unlike GM the US Tech Worker changed and Adapted............til obsolescence.

# March 23, 2009 10:55 PM

debug said:

I hope you have changed your mind on guest worker visas with millions of unemployed highly skilled Americans, not everybody is lucky like you to be able to charge 150 an hour.

Someday you will realize that you are not getting projects because you are an American.  Remember most H1bs are Indian and they only hire Indian.  Nobody is that good specially your skillset which is a dime a dozen now.

# April 8, 2009 4:06 AM

uber1024 said:

Yes, of course my opinion has changed.  I can easily find American workers to fill jobs now, which was always my concern.

Not sure why you guys are so hung up on Indians.  While I've met some above average Indian developers, these are not the people that I'm talking about.  I guess I've said that a couple of times already but it doesn't seem to sink in.

# April 8, 2009 6:38 AM

Old Programmer said:

What everyone misses here are the 'incentives' paid to American executives by Indian firms to hire H1B programmers.  Bribes are a common way of doing business in India and our tech execs are more than willing to be paid to hire H1Bs.  Look around at the managers - bet you'll ffind new cars, club memberships, ocean view homes, etc.

BTW - ask one of these H1B types are real engineering question.  Don't they all have mechanical degrees?  Ask a fluid dynamics question and watch the fun....

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