Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

There are a few things I need to get off my chest.

When I started working on TestDriven.Net I was a hobbyist .NET developer. My day job was as a Java consultant. TestDriven.Net was something I did for fun between consultancy gigs. Working on open source projects can be a great way to learn a new technology. I enjoyed being part of the fledgling .NET community and positive reception TestDriven.Net (then NUnitAddIn) was getting.

When TestDriven.Net 1.0 was released I was still hobbyist .NET developer. It was only natural that I use the Express SKU which was being targeted at other hobbyist developers. In fact I developed the whole of TestDriven.NET 1.0 using C# Express, MSBuild and WiX (as described in this post).

A few months after TestDriven.Net 1.0 was released I was given the MVP award by Microsoft. According to Ben Miller (my then MVP lead) I was "very well known" for having created TestDriven.Net. As far as I'm aware this was the primary reason I received the award.

On Dec 1, 2005 I received an email from Jason Weber the lead for the Visual Studio IDE and Visual Studio SDK. Apparently Jason wanted to better understand my product and strategy. It was clear from the email subject that Jason incorrectly assumed TestDriven.Net was a VSIP Package. The interesting thing about VSIP packages being that they require a special key from Microsoft in order to function.

This is where the story begins. I'm not going to summarize what happened. I'm going to give you all the information so you can make up your own mind.

  1. The first set of emails are between Dec 1, 2005 and Mar 30, 2006. They culminate in a teleconference between Craig Symonds (the General Manager for Visual Studio), Grant Drake, Jason Weber (who doesn't say a word) and myself.
  2. The second set of emails are between March 31, 2006 and Apr 17, 2007. They culminate with Jason finally letting me know which license I'm supposedly in breach of (the Express EULA). I'm still none the wiser about which clause.
  3. Finally I receive two letters (delivered by motorcycle courier) from Microsoft's UK lawyers. For the first time ever I am told which exact clause I'm supposedly in breach of. The second letter lets me know that they are reading my weblog and the TestDrivenUsers group.

Less than a year ago I was still a hobbyist .NET developer. I created TestDriven.Net as a tool for myself and something that I hoped other .NET developers would find useful. I have no intention of selling out and giving in to this kind of petty bullying without a fight.

Update: I received another letter on May 31, 2007.
Update: Fixed the email formatting when viewed in IE.

Published Wednesday, May 30, 2007 7:12 PM by Jamie Cansdale

Comments

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

Not to be a douche, but you didn't point out how this affects *me*.  Are they going to sue you into submission until you stop distributing?  Is their problem with TestDriven.Net only when it's installed on Express SKUs?  etc...

On a related side note, I quite enjoy TestDriven.Net and think that Microsoft's test implementation (at least as it existed when I tried it in VS2005) totally sucked.  Test lists, are you retarded?  I appreciate your useful test runner implementation.

Wednesday, May 30, 2007 8:40 PM by Bobo

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

Ok, so I read through the extensive list of emails, and this is my summary...

Microsoft is protecting their Express SKU by pulling out a specifically vague clause to get you in line.  This doesn't surprise me, you probably won't win if you choose to fight it...

+1 suckage point for Microsoft for not allowing extensibility in the Express SKUs.

+1 suckage point for Microsoft for bringing in the lawyers.

They hold out your MVP status since you didn't immediately cease.

+1 suckage point for Microsoft.

It seems like they could also use the same clause against you on any other SKU if they choose to.

+1 suckage point for Microsoft.

You should've immeditately said you wouldn't remove your Express SKU integration until you've been notified by their lawyers.  I understand why you wouldn't want to do this, but it probably would've saved yourself a lot of worry and hassle.

+1 suckage point for you.

So in total 4 suckage points for Microsoft and 1 suckage point for you.  Obviously Microsoft sucks more than you do on this issue, but what can you do?

I imagine there'll be a bit of blog outrage for a while, but at the end of the day Microsoft will still have you remove your Express SKU integration.  

Suckage.

Wednesday, May 30, 2007 9:14 PM by Randy Ridge

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

Their claims are unsubstantiated. The EULA clause is not legal. Just ask a lawyer.

Wednesday, May 30, 2007 9:47 PM by Jeff

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

Use their stuff, play by their rules. Why don't you write your own version of VS Express?

Wednesday, May 30, 2007 9:55 PM by Whimsical Monkey

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

I do not really know anything about TestDriven.NET or the situation, but if the intention is to provide integration with some free IDE, wouldn't SharpDevelop suffice? :-)

Wednesday, May 30, 2007 10:43 PM by David

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

C# Express doesn't support extenions.  You can't create or load them.  I don't understand why you think it's legal for you to hack on Microsoft products.  Of course they're going to come after you.

Wednesday, May 30, 2007 11:28 PM by .Net Guru

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

Amazing... how draconian of them... Sorry Jamie but you've gone from MVP to MMW (Microsoft's Most Wanted!)

I guess that will teach us developers, developers, developers to build on the .NET platform.

Wednesday, May 30, 2007 11:30 PM by corbin

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

This is stupid and pointless.  Microsoft isn't in any position to be pushing developers away from their product.

Wednesday, May 30, 2007 11:40 PM by The Other Steve

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

gggggrrrrrrrrrr =(

I cant belive how many time has M$ to do this idiots THINGS !!!

How many market share cant lose leting anyone use testdriven with express !!! damn idiots

Sure the marketings guys said: "OMG if anyway realize that with NUnit, Express and TD.NET is enough for a great user experience, so, who can buy VS ??"

How can they be so silly of mind !!!

All my forces with you dude =) all the community will be with you too you are a great value for all us.

You must call ScottGu that looks like the great guy that hear us in M$, and is racional, not like these other idiots, I read near all the mails, and make me so angryyyyyyy

Best of luck

Marcos

Wednesday, May 30, 2007 11:41 PM by Marcos

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

this is totally insane.

Now i know why i can't build extensions for MS Paint =( sigh.. :P

Thursday, May 31, 2007 1:13 AM by Keith Rull

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

Jamie,

First, let me state I'm a paying TestDriven.net user.  I love the product and I don't want it to suddenly disappear and go away due to this issue.

In regards to this, I read the entire thread of correspondence (all of it).  While I do not agree with how MS handled this situation and more importantly you (wording of emails and holding subscriptions/memberships over your head), I have to agree with MS on this issue. Regardless of how you integrated TD.NET into the Express SKU, extending the limited functionality of the Express product clearly was against their terms (I'm not arguing the terminology of the license agreement.  I'm talking more about what they "intended" it mean, which we all know by now).  Btw, I found it very annoying how Jason Weber kept referring to your support of the Express SKU as a "hack", especially when you stated numerous times that you were using publically listed API's.

With all of that said, is having Express support that important? I ask this as an avid TD.NET user who doesn't want to see the product possibly die because of this.

Regards,

Avid TD.NET user...

Thursday, May 31, 2007 1:30 AM by Doug Rohm

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

My heart goes out to you. Is there anything that can be done to assist you?

Thursday, May 31, 2007 1:52 AM by Jeremy Hodges

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

I can't understand if they think you are working around a software limitation, or a feature limitation.

As far as I can tell you are giving *new* functionality, of which there may be a comparable feature in other versions of Visual Studio, which is in no way in breach of their licence.

More to the point, if they don' want add-ins to provide functionality that may be present in other versions of their software, it is up to them to either sandbox add-ins (as in done in many games and is well accepted practice) or to remove that feature if they have given the capability to do something they didn't want people to do.

Regardless, the approach they are taking (to try and limit additional functionality), is completely bizzare.

TestDriven.NET is *esential* software - whether you use the Express or any higher vesion of VS ... I wouldn't be without it.

Thursday, May 31, 2007 2:05 AM by Casey

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

And ... my open email to Jason Weber (feel free to send him your thoughts at his published email address  Jason@JasonWeber.com ):

Jason

Just so you can start to understand the bad feeling you have created, I would like to add my voice to those others you will no doubt receive about your ridiculous campaign against TestDriven.NET, one of the most essential Visual Studio add-ins there is.

Normally, I am a very vocal defender of Microsoft, and especially of copyright and IP laws, but on this one you just have the situation completely wrong.

You are attempting to limit functionality within Visual Studio add-ins, a problem (if it is a problem) of your own making.

Regardless of whether you think you can win this fight on a technicality or terminology, I assure you that you won’t win anything in the long run, and you will seriously alienate a SIGNIFICANT number of .NET developers.

Good luck in the petty battle you have chosen.

Regards

Thursday, May 31, 2007 2:10 AM by Casey

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

I think perhaps the MS guys misunderstand your tools:)

Thursday, May 31, 2007 3:31 AM by Ray Zhang

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

Damn!

be strong :)

Thursday, May 31, 2007 3:38 AM by Darius Damalakas

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

Ok, I love testdriven.net.

but I do recall reading some post from you quite a while back where you stated that you used hacks in order to make it work with express.

Ofcourse they made the express edition limited so that users would want to buy the real thing.

If you then found a way to work around this limitation , then Id say its pretty close to cracking a free product and enabling the full version.

So I can see why they are a bit upset.

Thursday, May 31, 2007 3:44 AM by Roger Johansson

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

Sounds like someone at MS had their ego bruised a bit by your so-called hacking, and decided to sick the lawyers on you to compensate.

"Release the hounds!"

Thursday, May 31, 2007 3:55 AM by foobar

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

This really sucks.

But perhaps on a positive note, when reading the emails I felt qutie motivated to harness my development energies more in the Ruby commmunity. This seems like an amicable solution to me.

Thursday, May 31, 2007 4:02 AM by Trumpi

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

@Roger Johansson - the technique I use to add Express support is such a non-hack that I wouldn't  credit it as such. I'm simply using a documented API to add menu controls. If you look though the archive I'm pretty confident you won't find that post. Are you sure it was me?

Thursday, May 31, 2007 4:15 AM by Jamie Cansdale

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

I can't react to the license problem for the Express SKU. I have a feeling you're on a loosing battle. Not that you're wrong, it's just David vs Goliath.

On the MVP status however, I know for a fact that you stand for TestDriven.net, which is on every serious .net developer's PC. How much more do you want to be involved in a community? What does it mean when they say that your community activity was way below what is expected of an MVP? Did you fail to promote M$ dogma enough? To me, this raises some serious questions on the community-driven aspect of MVP awards.

Thursday, May 31, 2007 4:48 AM by Michel Grootjans

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

Jamie: Keep up the good work.

Microsoft: You seriously need to rethink this one... I mean seriously!?! Do you want a developer ecosystem or not

Thursday, May 31, 2007 4:54 AM by Andrew

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

Another reason why I feel that Microsoft does not value its developer community. Ruby On Rails any one?

Thursday, May 31, 2007 5:13 AM by Glyn

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

Just a note that my heart goes out to you too Jamie. Your strength in not bowing to the awesome power that is Microsoft and *attempting* to stick up for the hobbiest developer is very commendable.

The folks developing without a big budget to back them need TDD just as much as the rest of us, maybe more so. In a sane world, people would not start off coding the 'bad' way and then learn TDD once they get a 'real' job. Neither should we be forced to drop TDD (or TDD.NET, ideally) when we drop into hobbiest mode.

Your efforts are commendable. My work already bought me TDD for VS.NET, but because I appreciate your stand I want you to know I'll make a point to support you in future... so as to make up for the marketing support your missing out from the motership.

A brave stand. thanks

Thursday, May 31, 2007 5:15 AM by Miles

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

Sucks.  

Keep up the good work. If you need a legal defence fund, I will certainly contribute.  

The thing that really gets me is that MS are just being stupid - they aren't gaining anything.  

Ho hum.  LAMP, here I come!  

Thursday, May 31, 2007 6:05 AM by AJ Finch

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

no good can come of this for both parties. mark my words this is like watching a war, both sides are doomed but the folks selling the weapons will profit (Media etc)

Thursday, May 31, 2007 6:35 AM by cant say

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

I wonder if this Jason is a fifth columnist within Microsoft.

He seems to be bent on harming the ecosystem.

I'm hoping that this now gets to the right people in MS and they sort Jason out.

His approach, deviousness, foot dragging etc. take your breath away.

I don't believe that most of MS is like that, and certainly not the upper management.  They can show that by fixing this and apologising.  

Thursday, May 31, 2007 6:44 AM by Mike Gale

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

This sucks. TestDriven is a must have for every VS.net installation.

Thursday, May 31, 2007 6:45 AM by Dody Gunawinata

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

Instead to what people here actually think, the EULA is valid. Certain parts of EULA's in the past were proved invalid, but the point which is violated in this case isn't.

Basicly you are not allowed to use Visual Studio Express to create products which you distribute commercially. In the case of TestDriven.NET this does happen, so MS is completely right... Besides that MS doesnt seem to be attacking TestDriven.NET, but rather you, as you are commercially exploiting an project you claim is Open Source (Try fitting that into GPL).

The same clause which the Express edition includes, is also included in the GPL in another form. Till this date nobody ever questioned that clause...

Thursday, May 31, 2007 7:07 AM by J

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

In the past I've heard about you losing your MVP but hadn't looked closely until today.  If you need contributions for legal defense, please put out the call.

Microsoft, do you really think your patents, lawyers and the legal system will allow you to stomp on individual developers without the non-stomped noticing.  I didn't think Fowler, was right when I heard him tell Hanselman.  Now I wonder if the trickle will become a flood?

Thursday, May 31, 2007 8:27 AM by Al Schrank

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

Is there really a case here, I just read the EULA, I don't see any clause in it that states that C# Express can't be used commercially, mine is located at: "C:\Program Files\Microsoft Visual Studio 8\Microsoft Visual C# 2005 Express Edition – ENU"

When I look at my XNA Express EULA it does clearly state that I am not to create commerical games for use on the XBOX 360.

I thought that MVPs got free copies of Visual Studio 2005.  Also, Visual Studio over at one of the Electronic Superstores is like 125 or so US Dollars.  Shop online and get it for less.  

I would strongly recommend that you take a look at the REAL EULA for C#, I can find no words against commercial use, except for the following:

"..use the software for commercial software hosting services."

This does seem like the case for TestDriven.NET as indicated from the blog posts here.

Thursday, May 31, 2007 9:29 AM by Socal

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

If they at least supported all their own addons on vs pro/team edition, then I suppose people would have a choice to upgrade if they find TD.Net essential. However, for example their XNA package does not work on anything but Express. That means even if I am willing to pay (I own vs team ed, td.net, typemock and r#) they are still actively trying to stop me developing in a tdd way effectively.

Microsoft: I don't know who have the legal right in this, but please stop this. I realize you are afraid the community will fill in the holes in the Express SKU and possibly make it too competitive with the non-free versions, but you are really harming a lot with this. Or just give Jamie a big bag of money for his company and put TDD.net directly in vs (all sku's)

Thursday, May 31, 2007 9:44 AM by Ronnie Kohring

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

I just don't understand Microsoft's reaction in this case.  Instead of trying to make your life difficult, they should be trying to make it easier.  You filled a major gap in their toolset.  Given the choice between TestDriven.NET and their pitiful unit testing tools, I'd choose TestDriven.NET.

I know it doesn't help, but I think the vast majority of the community is 100% behind you on this, Jamie.  Good luck, and thanks for making such an excellent tool.

Thursday, May 31, 2007 9:50 AM by Matt

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

That Martin Fowler article is interesting.

Thursday, May 31, 2007 9:59 AM by The Other Steve

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

This is a joke, no wonder people are fussing about MS losing the Alpha Geeks. Unit Testing is not an expert or advanced add-on, it is a core part of development. TestDriven.NET is an excellent product and anything which encourages even hobbyist developers to embrace Unit Testing should be encouraged.

My problem: I love working with C# and .NET framework. The Mono project looks more and more attractive all the time. How hard would it be to enable TestDriven.NET on MonoDevelop?

Thursday, May 31, 2007 10:01 AM by Craig

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

Good luck dude, this totally blows.  

It really seems like MS is trying to drive the best developers away from .NET lately.  Whether or not they have a case for this, it sounds totally gaytarded.

Thursday, May 31, 2007 10:02 AM by Aaron

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

[trackback] MS lawyers bully TestDriven.NET...

Thursday, May 31, 2007 10:02 AM by Judah

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

When it all goes pear shaped and you're forced to remove the Express integration, just make sure you anonymously leak the source code for achieving the integration to as many distribution points as possible.

Thursday, May 31, 2007 10:17 AM by Jason

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

this is interesting because it needs to be looked at a from a wider context. What happens if a whole bunch of vendors start to build addins that work on Express. You then have an ecosystem based upon a free IDE and I would assume that Express R&D is being serviced by the rest of the VS SKUs. So if someone says I get free VS Express + a bunch of addins and I no longer need VS Pro - where does that leave Microsoft. So it might not be a case of MS just targetting Testdriven.net but more worried by the larger implications

Thursday, May 31, 2007 10:40 AM by John

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

I'm baffled. As far as I can see, the main thing Jamie asked for, is an exact explanation on how the license was breached.

I mean, how can anyone claim a breach, but refuse to offer a clear explanation?

Thursday, May 31, 2007 11:48 AM by Thomas Eyde

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

I understand your pain, look at it this way. I created MyGeneration with Justin Greenwood. MyGeneration is a very popular .NET code generator. I also created an architecture called dOOdads. MyGeneration is still the #1 download each week 3 years running on download.com in the .NET tools category. We've turned a ton of people onto .NET and especially through dOOdads, it allows novices to act like experts. I've since moved onto EntitySpaces a commerical offering. So we've done our share in helping the .NET community grow.

I was never given MVP status? Though I can see from our stats that even Microsoft themselves run MyGeneration daily. I'm not at all upset, I am staunchly independent and would never become co-mingled in that mess. I learned that through an experience in an earlier life. So relish your independence my friend.

Remember that scene from "It's a wonderful life" when Jimmy Stewart shakes ol' man Potter's hand after being offered everything he had ever dreamed about? Think back ...

Thursday, May 31, 2007 11:55 AM by Mike Griffin

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

M$ is only about money. You can see all their history. They have NO real partners, they have only future victims. m$ only uses developers, partners as their sales force for free. When they acquire the market share in specific area by their partners, they develop their own product and kick all their "partners" out . So why are you killing yourselves microsoft developers? use linux/unix, java, oracle... All of them are state-of-the-art products and you are not dependent on one big company and primary you dont support your future competitor.

Thursday, May 31, 2007 12:03 PM by Mike

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

Remember, as Jamie states, he used only public API calls within VS Express.

There is no hacking, no reverse engineering, no use of reflector to read the internals. Just a few calls to public APIs to add menu items into VS Express.

This is a mistake on the part of MS for making public APIs available that were apparently only intended for their own internal use. And that is where they came unstuck in court before.

My advice (as someone who has spent years in court over IP rights issues) ... don't appoint legal representation if you intend to fight this, represent yourself. Firstly you will save a fortune on legal bills that will bankrupt you before you even get your day in court (your costs will be minimal, somewhere in the order of a few hundred pounds to get to court), secondly the court gives a lot more leeway to litigants in person (as you aren;t expected to know all of the relevant procedures), thirdly the other side *has* to provide you with asistance and explanations for all the procedures and tricks they are using to help you defend them, and fourthly, they will give up long before you do this route.

Either way you are risking a lot, unless TestDriven.NET is a limited company, in which case you are acting on behalf of your comapny, and not as an individual ... in which case your liability total is probably £100.

Good Luck

Thursday, May 31, 2007 1:43 PM by Casey

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

My advice to Jamie

Thursday, May 31, 2007 2:07 PM by Jan Van Ryswyck

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

Whatever happened to "Developers, developers, developers, ..."?

This seems totally at odds with the whole point of VS Express.

Anyway, kudos, Jamie. TestDriven really works great for what it intended to do, especially compared to the lame duck test runner UI in VS2005 Team System Ripoff Edition.

Thursday, May 31, 2007 2:14 PM by mash

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

You're crazy if you think TestDriven can get away with this.  Microsoft has hundreds of ISV's extending Visual Studio and we get together in Redmond a few times a year for deep dives with Microsoft.  We can all see how you've hacked your way into C# Express and could easily make the same hacks.  There's nothing creative or brilliant about your hack.  You're injecting code.  Congratulations  We would all like to integrate with C# Express but we play by the rules because we're trying to partner with Microsoft.  You might be able to fool these people into thinking that you've created legal extensions but any Visual Studio expert can see right through what you've done and know that you're hacking.  There are hundreds of us that Microsoft could have testify on their behalf.  Jason is right to refer to TestDriven as a hack.

Thursday, May 31, 2007 2:37 PM by Michael

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

You sound like a shame Michael, suppose that you are right.

M$ is the "evel empire" that everybody said, so the discussion here is more bigger than that.

If you create a program that inject code in Windows 2000 to solve some task, you are breaking the EULA ??

OMG !!  Mike Gunderloy was so damn right when said that a dev world full of patent claims is the worriest side that we can go.

Damn you M$ !!

You make a community really hungry, the battle just start and I see a lot of MVP giving the reason to Jamie, so stop to scary us with your patents.

The idiot decision about the Ribbon UI is just another proff of the level of evil people at M$

Thanks to god, there are some really good developers inside the company, because that day that you lost that, you are in the final.

Thursday, May 31, 2007 3:14 PM by Marcos

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

This is just sad... :(

Thursday, May 31, 2007 3:24 PM by Jonas Follesø

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

Isn't this what you expect from Microsoft? Microsoft's Anders Heilsburg has been arrogant for 10 years about C# claiming he designed a new language. Microsoft's Scott Gutherie has been arrogant for 5 years that ASP.Net is better than PHP/Ruby. Microsoft's Rick Lavant has been arrogant for 2 years about VSTS being innovative. Now Microsoft's Jason Weber is being arrogant about Visual Studio. We just need someone to be arrogant about .Net platform and we'll have a full house. Anyone?

Thursday, May 31, 2007 3:38 PM by James Stoute

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

I know nobody wants to hear this but I don't understand why surprised by this kind of thing.  This is the standard operating procedure for MS.

I've never understood why anyone would choose to get close to MS.  It's like playing with a grown lion.  The lion might seem nice until it eats your face.

Thursday, May 31, 2007 3:42 PM by James

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

Stop creating stuff for M$ products; if you had created an Eclipse plugin, you would not be in this situation. Play with fire, and you'll get burned.

Thursday, May 31, 2007 3:49 PM by Adrian

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

The way i see it the best you'll be able to do is argue about the fact that Microsoft made it hard enough to technically prevent people from installing extensions into Visual Studio Express.. So, even if you're willing to go down that path, it's only a matter of time untill they come up with better way to stop people using 'the hole'...

Thursday, May 31, 2007 3:51 PM by Tim Van Wassenhove

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

Good luck Jamie!

Love your product btw.

Thursday, May 31, 2007 5:37 PM by pieter

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

My daily job is a Java developer. Specifically building plug-ins for Eclipse. The actual value and need for Java, in my opinion, died in 2001 when C# was released. However, my company and clients want it, and it pays the bills.

Why does my company build plug-ins in Java for Eclipse? I have strongly argued for plug-ins for VS for a long time. The reality is that we need a *free*, *extendable* platform that we are allowed to redistribute. VS Express gets close; however, the fact that extensions are not permitted is the deal killer.

Microsoft: you are hurting yourself and the .Net community. Supporters try to back your technologies, but you either intentionally disable key functionality or push people away. Surely you can go better than this. As a start, let this one go.

Thursday, May 31, 2007 9:25 PM by James

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

Jamie, I always found your work great.

Today I discover that you are also able to stay on the point you believe is right regardless of what the others are saying to you.

This confirms me two things:

- may be you are not that smart in business as

this could obviously hurt your company.

- You are a remarkable man and you deserve that every serious developer  helps you even those who do not care at all about your software not working on vs express editions.

I just bought my licence today, I know this doesn't make a big difference but it is the only way to say "Thank you"

Friday, June 1, 2007 5:45 AM by Riccardo

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

I've used, and loved, TestDriven.Net. TestDriven.Net made it possible to really get into the TDD flow inside Visual Studio: test-red-code-green-refactor-test. I can't say enough good things about it. Seriously cool stuff. So this situation stuns and saddens me. Jamie, can you clarify something for me: TestDriven.Net is just a plugin that uses the public APIs to connect NUnit to Visual Studio, right? So the basis of their complaint is really that their express edition supports the same plugin architecture that the other editions do? And that means that anyone who writes and releases plugins for Visual Studio could find themselves at the receiving end of some nasty attention from MS lawyers? If my assumption that TestDriven.Net relies on public APIs is correct, I'm trying to figure out which part of PUBLIC API Microsoft isn't understanding. Augh!! If there is anything the community can do for you, I hope you'll let us all know.

Friday, June 1, 2007 8:40 AM by Elisabeth Hendrickson

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

Each day I move further away from Microsoft. Perhaps I will be MS free in 5 years.

Friday, June 1, 2007 10:33 AM by Gavin Joyce

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

What is this world coming to!  Rather than echo other comments I agree with most notably the contemplation of DevDevDev but only if you read the small print can you be one of our DevDevDevs but the juxta position of this company is killing its brand, for me at least... how can one read the words of John Lam with a straight face regarding his recent post (iunknown blog) in reply to Martin Fowler's warning to Microsoft when devs like you get treated like this.

What I'm totally at a loss to here is the concept of 'legal addons' vs. 'illegal addons' with VS.NET: why on earth would a dev want/need to know about that - this is a key reason for going open - devs do their jobs and managers avoid legal headaches.  Dare I say the term 'hacking' has come full circle here i.e. before hacking meant the dodgy stuff, then hacking became the good stuff and now it appears it's the bad stuff either way.

WTF!!

Friday, June 1, 2007 12:02 PM by Ed Daniel

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

If Microsoft let this ride, everyone would make their products work on Express edition. Then why would you buy professional?

They're not being greedy, they need money to support continued development.  YOU'RE being greedy.

Friday, June 1, 2007 1:22 PM by brownr22

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

Jamie -

Unfortunately, you are running into what happens when your platform provider sees you as a profit center (sell more copies of Visual Studio) vs. a partner who is making the platform a better place.

Contrast this with - gasp! - Apple: Apple gives away its tool set with each and every copy of Mac OS X. You have it right out of the box.

And if you want to extend it, guess what: Apple doesn't come after you and try to shut you down.

Of course, Microsoft could easily solve this problem: allow vendors who distribute "Express Versions" of their products for free (as you do) to extend Express.

Has anyone from Microsoft noticed - based on their postings it doesn't appear to be the case - that for non-professional/hobbyist/educational developers (the folks who use Express) that you aren't charging them a thin dime? Aren't you in line with the "ethos" of the Express product?

Microsoft, get a clue! If you can't find one, I will give you one for free - just like Jamie does with TestDriven.NET!

Yours,

Jordan Dea-Mattson

Friday, June 1, 2007 1:31 PM by Jordan Dea-Mattson

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

Jamie,

I read through all of the emails you listed on your own blog - and I must admit, I believe you are wrong.

Microsoft made it very clear that the Express edition is not support to support any add-ins - irregardless of what the license says, they are the owners of the product and they made it clear in all of those emails that you were in violation of their licensing agreements with the add-in.  The add-in API is a privelage and not a right for developers to use - it is an API that Microsoft owns the rights to, not the developers developing to it.

Friday, June 1, 2007 4:49 PM by Chris

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

I loved how Microsoft was wanting to reach an amicable solution, but the only solution they would accept is the one in which they win.

Friday, June 1, 2007 6:19 PM by Me

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

Two words : Categorical Imperative I think it's bad form MS is being so draconian. My Sympathies. However: 1. I would hate to see you sued into the dark ages. I like your product, many in the community use it and like it as well. Don't be a martyr, it will serve as a disservice to your customers. 2. Other venders and plug-ins makers follow the rules. You undermine them when you violate the terms. 3. By violating thier terms of agreement you indirectly show your approval of people who violate your terms of agreement. Thus devaluing your product in the eyes of your paying customers. This doesn't exuse MS behavior though. Good luck.

Friday, June 1, 2007 8:16 PM by brian

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

Dude -- while this situation sucks a little for you, I can't help but think that you brought this on yourself. I read the entire email trail: the purpose of MS prohibiting extensions to VS Express is pretty obvious (legal butt-covering aside). If you go to court on this, and let's say you win -- what's to prevent MS from just pulling the VS Express SKU altogether to prevent revenue loss? Stop being a pig-headed dev. They asked nicely, now do the decent thing and comply.

Saturday, June 2, 2007 2:16 AM by TheAxMan

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

I reviewed the EULA on TestDriven.NET and it seems you would not allow me to use the software in any way not expressly permitted in the license agreement. No where in the license agreement does it allow me to extend your product- only to use it. It seems you make the same claims and I would expect you to expect me to follow them. ---------------------------------- Except as expressly permitted in this Agreement, Licensee shall not, and shall not permit others to: (i) modify, translate, create derivative copies of or copy the Software (other than one backup copy which reproduces all proprietary notices), in whole or in part; (ii) reverse engineer, decompile, disassemble or otherwise reduce the Software to source code form; (iii) distribute, sublicense, assign, share, timeshare, sell, rent, lease, grant a security interest in, use for service bureau purposes, or otherwise transfer the Software or Licensee’s right to use the Software; (iv) remove or modify any copyright, trademark, or other proprietary notices of Mutant affixed to the media containing the Software or contained within the Software; or (v) use the Software in any manner not expressly authorised by this Agreement.

Saturday, June 2, 2007 8:49 AM by Mruminer

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

Man !! They made you famous and now you are known to the whole world !!

Saturday, June 2, 2007 9:47 AM by friend

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

...and shouldn't Microsoft have to assume the responsability for limiting integration into a product through their code, as it is their product?

Saturday, June 2, 2007 11:08 AM by Jeff

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

What can you say to this? When MS released Express it was made clear in their messaging through blogs.msdn.com and channel 9 that Express was crippled in terms on extensibility and it was pretty easy to infer that they'd not want their selling point for the $$$ versions to be compromised by someone creating tools for Express, especially tools that compete with the features in their $$$ offerings.

Saturday, June 2, 2007 1:49 PM by Joku

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

Reading between the lines, Jamie, even if a Microsoft developer was the truest blue of all with a wall full of MVPs, a Microsoft whim could wipe out your revenue in an instant. Who on earth could afford a patent attorney grade lawyer at £500/hr+ to defend even the most specious claim. And this is perhaps is the point. If Microsoft developers switch allegiance to purely open source, then it's Microsoft v a whole movement, not one company in Finchley.

Saturday, June 2, 2007 2:24 PM by Chris Clark

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

Jamie, Isn't it possible to create a stand-alone version of TD.net for Express users? This tool could then be started from the 'External Tools' section and even been started with a shortcut key. Of course this isn't as nice as a plug-in that's integrated into the IDE, but at least keeps you out of a lot of trouble. :-S

Saturday, June 2, 2007 8:46 PM by Steven

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

OK, the reprint of the Visual C# 2005 Express Edition EULA has all of the information. The important language is in clause 9. The attorney's letter to you also quotes a portion of that clause. Now, when I first installed an Express Edition, I noticed that clause and it was clear to me what that was about. What is so hard about that? Many of us started as hobbyists, many of us are still enthusiasts as well as professionally-experienced. Most of us are not so stubborn as to jeopardize our business and livelihood.

Sunday, June 3, 2007 1:57 PM by orcmid

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

Wow...!!

This is so awesome, you've really managed to hit their "soar toes" on this one...

I've just got one thing to say; HOLD ON!!

There's 6 billion people on this planet supporting you on this case!!

( !! running to my blog to create a blogpost that's about this exact issue... !! )

.t

Monday, June 4, 2007 8:16 AM by Thomas Hansen

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

I don't have a dog in this fight, but here's something you might want to know.

There's an important principle in English common law regarding the interpretation of contracts. Basically it says that "vagueness is to be resolved against the party which introduced it." Ie, if MS writes a contract with a vague clause, they can't rely in the vagueness of the clause to prevail in court.

It's a great principle -- it makes a certain amount of sense, the precedents are clear and it's often overlooked by lawyers who should know better.

I can't remember a citation. But it should be easy to find using the usual reference tools.

Tuesday, June 5, 2007 3:04 AM by Dr. D.

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

Well, not to sound rude or conceited because I know where hobbyists, students, etc come from.. but $120 isn't a lot for a development platform. If you want to be a professional guitarist, you have to buy a guitar and amp. If you want to be a mechanic, you have to buy tools. If you want to win the Tour de France, better go through a few bicycles. Why is software any different? Are we *owed* a free development platform? Why do we feel entitled? Because you could avoid buying Powerbuilder or VC++ and install unix for access to a C compiler?

My advice is to drop Express support. If someone wants to use your tool, then they'll buy the appropriate software. It's in their best interest.

Sure, Microsoft could have handled the communication a lot better, but the end result will be the same.

Tuesday, June 5, 2007 12:18 PM by Jonathan

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

Good luck. I can't see how your violating the EULA and fighting is the right thing to do. Well done.

Tuesday, June 5, 2007 12:59 PM by n whiteford

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

With any public company, it's always going to be about money, whatever "it" is. Until you realize that and take the cynical view of EVERY transaction, you will be disappointed. Learn or suffer. You're a fool to continue supporting a company's product who plainly means you harm and will cheerfully ruin your life for the sake of money. You'll be bankrupted by legal fees regardless of the outcome of this quixotic fight. Give it up now while you're still solvent. Next time if you want to tweak Microsoft's nipple, distribute your hacks anonymously instead of painting a target on your chest.

Wednesday, June 6, 2007 1:50 AM by Jubal Harshaw

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

err... another point. If the EULA says you can't work around technical limitations in VS express, I don't see how you have a problem so long as you personally don't use VS Express. I believe MS long ago gave you a full licence of Visual Studio. Provided you only use your program with that, and not with the express version you're in the clear. It sounds like the EULA attempts to restrict how you can use the program. I don't see anything in there saying you can't use it to develop extensions for other people to run :-D

Wednesday, June 6, 2007 3:16 AM by Ross

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

maybe we should get an underground anti-MS public visual propaganda campaign going.  As i know very little about programming, and only marginally more about law, reppin' you hard is the most i can do, apart from big upping your luck et al.

Wednesday, June 6, 2007 7:17 AM by YONK

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

Dont let the B"£%"£$%ds grind you down. Hope you fight it as it has no basis to take you to court. hope they burn

Wednesday, June 6, 2007 11:07 AM by robmac

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

You clearly have a lot of guts and integrity, and, I would guess, are a heck of a developer. Hopefully this won't sidetrack you too much from doing the things you want to do. Take care of yourself through all this, Jamie.

Wednesday, June 6, 2007 11:23 AM by Paul

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

There's a gang of us Ireland-side hoping they don't make an example of you (some micro$ofties included!) - good luck dude!

Wednesday, June 6, 2007 3:03 PM by f0nzie

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

Funny, it's very easy to pick out the posts of people who were made to write answers her by M$, either directly or indirectly.

If you stand to suffer great personal loss, either personal or financialy, then don't bother, take your tallent elsewere, where it will be apriciated.

4 those who don't understand; Your not actually supposed to be able to do anything useful with Express Edition, it's only meant to draw you away from any competing products, and potentially make you purchase a M$ product, but even if you don't, atleast you wont be supporting Linux or opensource, and you will need a M$ operating system to run it, so they figured they win either way.

I'm particularly sadned by the fact that M$ hires so many tallented people, and then instead of competing in the market place by showing their great skill and innovating; from the huge potential, they will instead use every dirty trick in the book to get an unfair and in that case very undeserved advantage. They do with lawyers what they should be doing by simply beeing better and smarter than everyone else, they already compeete from a very uneven playing field....what more do they need to win "fairly"

Wednesday, June 6, 2007 6:55 PM by Michael - Denmark

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

Why waste your time?  Go work on Mono where you'll be appreciated.

Thursday, June 7, 2007 8:21 AM by George

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

Excuse my language but I’m not a native English speaker and I’m not even a c# developer but i think i sort of understand what is going on...

I have read through almost all correspondence and i noticed how the ms guy just is a snake. When you disabled the support, ms got what they wanted and wanted to ditch you. They didn't even have the courtesy to reply on you mail. They were happy with you when you complied 100% with their wishes but as soon as you have your own opinion, they can have a 1000 others in your place. (warning to other developers !)

This kind of business practices might be very common for companies like ms, but eventually the truth comes out and a company like google comes by which will beet ms on all fronts :).I hope this will be sooner rather then later.

I want to express my support to you. It is such a shame how a nice hobby eventually became sort of a nightmare. But don't you ever regret the steps you took, this nightmare has only been caused by ms' greed. I really hope this won't get to you to much. With all your actions it shows you have real integrity and for that you already got a lot of support.

I know you don't need advice from me or anyone else, but if i were you and nothing works out, i would consider google as a new employer. I’m sure they have a spot for such a good developer like you, it would also make some good headlines and make those ms snakes a little angry (now that would be a nice thing to see wouldn't it ;) ). Maybe, if you are lucky, the google legal representation might help you out since the ms case is very weak, and they probably got a lawyer or 2 to spare for this cause.

Regards and strength to you for the time to come

Thursday, June 7, 2007 5:16 PM by johny

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

While it seems that Jamie has been a little obtuse in dealing with this issue, I think it is clear that the only "safe" development platforms for the student or hobbyist to use or contribute back too, are those with an open license.  

Seriously this seems a dangerous playground for a hobbyist.  Go enhance eclipse, or rails, or something.  The competition is a bit tougher there, but unless you inadvertently infringe on a patent, you won't have people telling you what you can and can't do with your code.

Thursday, June 14, 2007 10:16 PM by DanO

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

Odd...  is *Refactor* NOT a third party product, with a free SKU and a purchased SKU that extends Express and non-Express versions respectively?

Friday, June 15, 2007 11:13 AM by JMcNulty

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

Hmmmmmmmmm ...

I've come late to the party, but here's an additional few cents <smile> ...

1)   The EULA is essentially an 'adhesion contract' [your attorney will get this], so you must abide by it ...

2)   However ... since you must abide by it, you are entitled to full, complete and clear discolure of not only the terms of the contract, but also the *meaning of those terms* and specific information on how they apply to you.  Simply ask Microsoft for a full, complete and clear list of the limitations of the product ... and ask the Judge [or Magistrate, depending on how this is being handled] for an injunction against Microsoft taking any action(s) against you until they have provided this list to you ... [don't forget to make sure that the court should also see & accept this list as meeting the appropriate criteria for full, complete and clear disclosure].

Good luck, keep fighting the good fight !

Tuesday, July 3, 2007 12:39 PM by David

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

Big Brother is watching you. I downloaded the express edition of web developer and also read the microsoft fine print which says this software has NO commercial restriction. Microsoft are making money hand over fist and they want to stand on the little guy coz they see a good idea and want it shutdown to let their commercial interests override the needs of others. So what are they supposed to be going back on their written word now. Where's the justice ?

Monday, August 13, 2007 4:11 AM by Paul

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

I read through your emails and I am not sure what your issue is.  You are integrating with a software product that was developed by a company.  That is their IP.  Seems to me like you are just being a punk and basking a little in all of the "victim" attention.  When you say you are going to do something you should do it...

Wednesday, October 3, 2007 11:08 PM by Mike Azocar

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

Wow!  What happened to those people?  This is actually the first time that I encountered harassment of a developer.  But don’t you smell something fishy?  I personally think you’ve worked into something that is in competition with something they wish they have in-house.  

Friday, December 7, 2007 3:23 AM by oil paintings

# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

With all due respect to all those who think Microsoft is right in this battle, I respectfully disagree.

I think it's just plain wrong for Microsoft to disallow Unit Testing as part of the Express editions.

I have great respect for Jamie's work; I think it's useful, and I think it should be allowed in the Express versions.  They are already limited enough.  Unit testing is a basic feature of software development.

That's what I'd say, and I hope that if Microsoft is responsive enough to do any survey on this topic they will find that most developers would agree.  In fact, they took the first step by including unit testing in the pro version of VS 2008.

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# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

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# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

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# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

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# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

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# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

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# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

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# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

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# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

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# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

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# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

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# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

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# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

А мне понравился пост! Жизненно. И интересно написано, спасибо....

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# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

А мне понравился пост! Жизненно. И интересно написано, спасибо....

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# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

А мне понравился пост! Жизненно. И интересно написано, спасибо....

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# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

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# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

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# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

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# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

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# re: Microsoft vs TestDriven.Net Express

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