CFC vs. ASP.NET

In another erroneous DevNet article, Ben Forta tries to say that ColdFusion is a good alternative to ASP.NET. [1]

“In other words, a commitment to .NET means a commitment to building applications that are open and extensible through SOAP and web services. A commitment to .NET in no way requires that you use any specific development language, not even ASP.NET. In fact, it is perfectly acceptable to mix and match technologies, to create hybrid applications using a mixture of best-of-breed and complimentary components.“

This is wrong on two accounts. First, a commitment to .NET does not equal a commitment to SOAP and webservices. They are definately very useful tools, but many .NET projects are perfectly happy to live without them. Additionally, although it may be perfectly acceptable to “mix and match“ technologies, that doesn't mean it is a good idea in the least bit. By mixing and matching technologies, you not only increase your infrastructure costs, but you also increase matinence costs and muddy your architecture. It is amazing how many tool vendors don't realize that. They think, “we are running on J2EE and expose everything through webservices, so you can just install our product on some box and go.“ While it may be an option for large enterprises who already have staff on site to support multiple platforms, the average developer is neither capable nor gullible enough to implement such a solution. Any vendor that wants to reach critical mass with .NET developers needs to offer a pure .NET solution that runs on top of IIS, not J2EE and some 3rd party app server.

“ColdFusion MX is architecturally similar. Instead of running on the Microsoft proprietary Windows-only .NET platform, it runs on the multi-vendor J2EE platform.“

Let's get this straight once again. .NET is not a Microsoft propretary, windows only technology. It is intended to be open and available for others to implement, and this is exactly what Novell is doing with Mono. Look at Miguel's own words:

“The .NET development platform is a very rich, powerful, and well designed platform that would help improve the free software development platform. Just like the GNU project began to clone Unix sixteen years ago, we will be cloning the .NET development platform because it is a great platform to build on. “ [2]

“.NET seemed to me like an upgrade for Win32 developers: they had the same problems we had when dealing with APIs that have been designed over many years, a great deal of inconsistency. So I want to have some of this new "fresh air" available for building my own applications.“ [3]

Yes, there are definately portions of the .NET framework that are not in the specs, but that doesn't mean that they cannot be implemented by others (as Ximian is doing), or that people are not free to develop their own complete solutions on top of that functionality that is found in the specs. Even the supposedly cross-platform J2EE has the same sorts of problems when you start building real world applications and discover that you need an app server.

“What all this means is that ASP developers can feel quickly at home in ColdFusion, probably more so than they do in ASP.NET.“

Yah, maybe if they really enjoyed learning XSLT and doing declarative programming...

“You use both ASP.NET and CFML at an application's presentation layer, where productivity is a primary goal....Both ColdFusion and ASP.NET recommends using parameterized queries instead of embedding SQL.“

Oh... so now we are supposed to embed our SQL queries in our presentation layer... yah. Chalk that up as a feature that should never be used.

“Enforced frameworks and structured development are both a blessing and a curse; while they encourage using best-practices and thus promote the creation of better applications, they can also get in the way of application development, often complicating development projects.“

Yes, but .NET is nowhere near J2EE's complexity. The constraints are really minimal and you aren't bound by anything other than the typical constraints that apply to any web application. However, as much as frameworks may “complicate“ development projects, solid architecture isn't exactly a breeze now is it? Taking the easy route may get you somewhere if you are developing mom and pop apps all day long for your 14 year old neighbors' lawn mowing business, but it doesn't buy you much in the real world.

“ColdFusion provides the language features needed to build highly scalable, structured, n-tiered applications.”

Actually, it lets you build out your presentation tier, but if you want to create a “highly scalable, structured, n-tiered application,“ you are going to have to do 90% of the coding (ie. your business logic and data access layers) in some other tool.

“Developers with an investment in Microsoft technologies and the .NET platform will find ColdFusion to be a powerful and cost-effective addition to their development toolbox”

Yah right... so, when I build my product and start shipping it, now I need to tell all my customers that because I was lazy and bought into this bull they have to install IIS, Apatche, J2EE, Cold Fusion, and the .NET framework on their box before they can use my app. That's not exactly what I call “cost effective.”

 

[1] Life after ASP. Ben Forta.
http://www.macromedia.com/devnet/mx/coldfusion/articles/cf_aspnet09.html

[2] The Mono Project.
http://www.go-mono.com/rationale.html

[3] Miguel de Icaza Explains. Dave Winer.
http://scriptingnews.userland.com/stories/storyReader$1275

18 Comments

  • I read this last night and was waiting for someone to comment on this bonehead's article... Thanks for sharing your thoughts Jesse...

  • As both a .Net and ColdFusion developer all I can really say is that this is a bit misleading from both your perspectives. I agree, Ben was wrong about what .NET represents as a platform.



    However, you do not have to embed your sql statements into presentation tier code, nor do you have to install both IIS and apache or J2EE OR .NET for cfml pages to work. These are both completely false statements. All you need is the ColdFusion Server and any one webserver (IIS or apache OR J2EE).



    It is possible to write OO-like code with ColdFusion components and thus n-tiered applications. CFML is a typeless language and that simplicity and flexibility is its strongest point. But, I digress, ultimately ColdFusion is brochureware with some very powerful features embeded into the server. The beauty of ColdFusion is the ability to rapidly prototype applications, build data access and business rules into components and swap them out for more scalable technologies.



    Like your opinions on other Macromedia products Jesse you let bias complicate hard facts; really is embarrassing to read a respected programmer publish stuff like this. At the end of the day, all technologies are our tools and it is our responsibility as professionals to be appropriately versed in ALL the tools of our trade to be effective at what we do.

  • I didn't say you had to embed SQL statements in your presentation tier. However, Cold Fusion is meant to be a presentation tier technology, and as such, I was pointing out that the feature is pretty much useless (yes, this is assuming you aren't writing your DAL and BLL in ColdFusion).



    If I am creating a .NET base application and using ColdFusion for my presentation tier, I am going to need to have AT A MINIMUM both IIS, .NET, JRE, and ColdFusion. However, if I want to really take advantage of ColdFusion, which was DESIGNED SPECIFICALLY FOR J2EE, I am going to want to run ColdFusion on a completely seperate box with a J2EE app server (so, it would probably end up being a linux/apatche/j2ee config). That is where that statement comes from. If I create a .NET application, I only need IIS and .NET. Why the hell would I ever want to install both JRE and .NET on my servers?

  • No need to shout, son. I can hear just fine.



    Why would you want to install both JRE and the CLR on a server? Well, why not. You can, afterall. Both "platforms" have distinct advantages and, as I said, using cfml you can rapidly prototype for either.





  • While I am at it, why not install PHP, Perl, and CGIC? I thought I already mentioned the reason it isn't a good idea. It burdens me with an unnescessary support and matinence cost--not to mention that it takes precious resources from my server and adds additional security concerns. Theoretically, both platforms have distinct advantages, but in the real world, the whole is much more valueble than one little part. Combining two platforms is not a zero impact thing as many (including you apparently) would have some people believe.

  • You miss the point entirely. The true strength of web services is integrating across organizational boundaries (which is exactly what UDDI is intended to help facilitate) or across platforms dictated by legacy applications. Quite often, inter-organization needs can best be met by the use of remoting; however, even if you should choose to use web services within your organization, there is nothing inherently "good" about combining two platforms. Although sometimes it is the unfortunate consequence of some actions beyond your control, the more platforms you have, the less productive you will become. Just walk into the nearest auto manufacturing plant and you will see what I mean. Web services merely help reduce the impact, but they do not by any means eliminate it.

  • Jesse, I've read your post twice now. I really don't understand any of it -- it's just an ill informed rant. Why do you bother to comment on a technology you clearly know absolutely nothing about?

  • You might ask Forta the same thing...

  • Jesse, in the end all of these technologies are "tools". I promise you a good CFMX developer could run circles around .NET coders. By the way, I program in .NET C#,Coldfusion MX,Java, and PHP.

  • Interesting post and even more interesting thread. Hey, I moved some sites to W2K3 Server recently and I re-architec'd a bit just so I wouldn't have COM+ and .NET on the same box. Give me a single platform any day.



    I cut my teeth on Cold Fusion in '96 and '97 when it was the only game in town. Thank goodness for ASP and now .NET.

  • In addition, Mono is out there but is it done yet? Miguel and his team have been working on it forever. Customers could care less what technology you use. From start to finish, my development cycle times have been extremely reduced by using CFMX. If I add Java to the mix (which CFMX can easily incorporate), I'm unstoppable. God forbid I have to train a new developer on how to develop an app in Java/JSP/etc.. or .NET C# (takes forever), when 75% of the time a PHP or CFMX app will meet all of the customer's needs without draining a whole lot of money from their pockets.

  • in response to "give me a single platform any day" Yes, please keep that "one-trick pony" mentality, that mentality will continue to keep us multi-language developers gainfully employed. There's more than one way to do things. Marrying yourself to one technology is a cop out. In essence, the concepts for most languages are the same--with slight changes to the syntax. Learn something new, it's really not hard.

  • I take note with a few comments:



    1) Although Mono is a port to a Unix platform, I question how sharp its teeth will be given that Microsoft isn't directly supporting it. And why should they. If Microsoft attempts to compete on the Unix platform with other vendors, it will become just another tool vendor on the Unix platform competing with other tool vendors who frankly love to bash Microsoft.



    2) The comment that a good CFMX developer will run circles aroun .Net coders. Sorry "theJZA", you lost me with that. If you are going to make comments such as this, provide concrete reasons why any good CFMX developer can run circles around any .Net coder. I am sure there are damn good CFMX coders out there and I know there are damn good .net developers, but flaming an entire community does nothing but hurt your own credibility.

  • Jesse,Jesse,Jesse

    I sometimes wonder why you comment on Macromedia's technology when you don't understand it. Do you have Macromedia-envy? I guess only the psychologists can delve into your insistance on commenting on things you don't understand.



    Let me ask you a few questions based on your blog entry:

    1. You state "Yah, maybe if they really enjoyed learning XSLT and doing declarative programming." What dows XSLT have to do with programming CFML? Yes, one can use XSLT in CFML, but CFML != XSLT. CFML is a lot simplier language to use for a web developer and with VB.NET getting more complex, CFML is a lot simplier that even MS's most "Basic" language. Which will get a lot more people developing new, innovative ideas?



    2. You state "Oh... so now we are supposed to embed our SQL queries in our presentation layer... yah. Chalk that up as a feature that should never be used." What does parameterized queries have to do with presentation layers? Do you even know what Ben Forta was talking about? Parameterized queries in CFML have to do with using <CFQUERYPARAM> tag to have the Database server compile the SQL once and allows for faster execution of multiple SQL commands where the value being search for is all that changes. In ASP speak, it is setting up the queryparam in the Command object. In CFMX, the recommended spot to place SQL is in the CFC (e.g., separate data tier interactions from presentation tiers). This is very scalable, and makes the SQL accessible from multiple presentation tier clients (CFML presentation pages, FLASH Clients, and even Web Services clients).



    3. You state "Yes, but .NET is nowhere near J2EE's complexity." What does J2EE's complexity have to do with CFMX? CFMX insulates one from the J2EE complexity a lot more than ASP.NET insulates one. CFMX automatically creates the Web Services interfaces for any CFC method with the remote access enabled? CFMX handles the Session management. CFMX handles the Mail interfaces. One can completely program in CFML, which is very simple, without even knowing that the underlying engine is J2EE. CFMX could just as easily run on top of .NET, whenever it finally gets all the pieces in place (especially on other platforms). Macromedia chose J2EE, instead, however, because the platform was already in place and was multi-OS oriented. Don't give me the line that .NET is multi-OS oriented. Miguel is struggling and Mono has yet to see the light of day. MS won't spare one dime to help Miguel out because it wants Linux to die. Therefore, without the funding or support from MS, MONO is slowly progressing along. We may see a version 1.0 of their products in a year or so. By that time, it probably won't matter. JBOSS is progressing nicely on an open-source J2EE implementation and when it is added to APACHE, the preferred web development platform on Linux will be J2EE. .NET will become a MS only technology by default. The Linux community will never implement .NET. OBTW, CFMX being a J2EE compliant application could easily be deployed to other J2EE servers, like JBOSS with minimal effort. How easily can ASP.NET be deployed to other servers? I don't see a production-ready version for Apache yet. It is only production-ready on IIS.



    4. You state "Actually, it lets you build out your presentation tier, but if you want to create a “highly scalable, structured, n-tiered application,“ you are going to have to do 90% of the coding (ie. your business logic and data access layers) in some other tool." CFML is a lot more than presentation tier. Do you not understand CFC's and their purpose? What is so special about .NET that makes it any more scalable, and n-tiered? What I see most commonly implemented is ASP.NET. ASP.NET however isn't components. ASP.NET is an upgrade of ASP. Yes, ASP.NET now separates out presentation from behind the scenes interaction, but this is depended on how the programmer writes the application. It isn't dependent on the architecture, itself. One could still mingle presentation code with behind the scenes code on the same ASP.NET page. CFMX, also promotes separation of presentation tier from the other tiers. It is all in how you code the applications. To me, I just don't see how ASP.NET provides any different "magic." Provide examples, if you have them how ASP.NET is so magical. My guess it is how you approach things as a programmer that will be the difference. It is also my guess that alot of ASP programmers out their won't "get" it, and still program their ASP.NET pages in the same fashion that they programmed their ASP pages (a sloppy mess that is hard to maintain).



    Just my two cents worth.



    TC

  • Jesse,

    Thanks for the comments back. I don't believe, however, that you fully understand Cold Fusion. When you get a chance you should look into it more. It is much more than you state it is. It is more than presentation layer and it is more than just some application running on top of J2EE engine. When one does regular web development, as I do for a living, Cold Fusion is still the best tool to get the job done. ASP.NET may have its merits, but it written for the programmer in mind, not the web developer. Cold Fusion has been, and always will be, first and foremost, for the web developer. It makes the web developer's job a whole lot easier. There is a reason why Jeremy Allaire and the gang chose Cold Fusion in the first place.



    Cheers,

    TC

  • To me, cf is merely easier to use, and so many people act as if that makes cf less than asp or .net or java.



    I think honestly that object orientation is pure idiocy. Because real-world people don't think object orientation, they think logically.



    I am at Point A, how do i get to Point B.



    Also this talk about seperating layers is also pure stupid.



    All of my jobs, i have in either for a dot-com or web shoppe, been doing all the coding myself, sure i may break things up into includes for readability and organizational use.



    But i do all the queries, and logic flow, and everything in the application itself.



    There are two real goals in web application development.



    (1) Thorough and Planned and Developed to the point where you don't have to go back and fix any mistakes you made: Either in not understanding the true project goals or objects or in not executing correctly.

    (2) Deploy it in high scalible manner: Caching, Clean Logic Flow, No Redundent coding, Error-Proofing Your Code, Making sure that it can handle multiple requests.



    I am not immature to have some need to prove that Coldfusion is the best or that asp or .net are worse than ColdFusion.



    ColdFusion, ASP, .Net are all great tools, if coded and planned and executed well.



    Think about that above.

  • There is also a free version of CF being written much like the mono project, it's called Blue Dragon and you can find it here (www.newatlanta.com).



    Ben's point about running on multiple platforms is that Macromedia writes the application server for multiple OS's. Microsoft obviously only writes it for their own. Honestly... Blue Dragon sucks... but I hear that Mono isn't much better. At least with CF you're not bound to an OS.



    And as far as mixing technologies. I think Ben's point is that WebServices which is probably the biggest thing to hit the internet since the web browser can be created and aborbed by multiple technologies (ASP, JSP, PHP, CF). So don't be fooled into thinking that you need ASP.NET in order to participate in the WebService arena.



    CF's power is in how rapidly you can develpe a solution for a specific need. All application servers have their advantages and disadvatages. Macromedia's CF just seems to have best solution for providing application solutions.



    Let's not forget that it was the Allaire people who really made CF in the first place.

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