Respect to you Roy for bringing these points up, even
though you obviously knew it would generate a lot of
flamers. These are issues that need to be discussed
openly and if the .NET community does not constantly
evaluate itself in a critical manner it will not move
forward and progress.
Does ALT.NET == Open Source. I don't think it should
really, but I get that impression as an outsider?
Pat,
You're commentary is a quite a blatant
mis-characterization of alt.net. This kind of
opportunistic misrepresentation is usually fueled either
by some sort of personal agenda or by not really getting
deep enough into the context to have made more than a
shallow analysis.
Your perspective would be sharpened with more personal
and in-person interaction with the persons, principles,
and practices associated with "alt.net".
The alt.net mailing list is categorically NOT the
alt.net community, it's more like the alt.net
community's drain pipe.
Oran,
There is absolutely an "underdog against the man" thing
happening in the .NET world, and fortunately so.
Although, you're representation of it trivializes the
truth of the motivation and the process.
FYI, Roy and I had (are having?) a conversation via
twitter that is really great and we're working towards
shared understanding.
Any perceived negativity in these comment threads should
be treated as a limitation of blog
comments-as-a-conversation-medium rather than any actual
negativity.
John,
How are you going to be a better developer if you
continue to refute software development fundamentals?
You consistently point yourself out as something
consistent with a Flat Earth Society of sustainable
software development.
And let's not dress Jeffrey Palermo up in angel's
clothing. He's a nice guy, but I wouldn't - and neither
do many inside the knowledge space - consider him to be
as knowledgeable on the subject matter as his actions
and assertions in community portray him.
You're characterization of the alt.net community as
elitist and dogmatic betrays your need to cover up for
not being able to grok the material. That's quite a
destructive form of elitism predispositions in itself.
Pat,
Seems like you're bashing me for bashing you for bashing
the alt.net community. And around and around we go.
The alt.net community is the people in the community
rather than the artificially-constrained thin pipe that
we are often forced to communicate with when we're not
making the effort to meet in-person.
My blog is gone because I began to recognize that the
kind of topics and subject matter we're addressing
require high-bandwidth media, or at least they require
much more human processing before attempting to distill
and serialize to text.
We know now that at a certain level of discourse and
subject matter that text-based interaction becomes
damaging, and this is why we've committed to in-person
community.
I'm financially-constrained at the moment as well, but
there are creative means to solving this problem that
are available to folks whose motivation presently rests
in moving the communications and community ball beyond
the hurtles that we've identified as detrimental to the
further pursuit and realization of our potential.
LOL. Sure Scott. I don't 'refute' software fundamentals,
I simply don't accept that these fundamentals are always
applied in the exact same way in all programming areas.
TDD/BDD, for instance, don't really apply to a lot of
ELT processes and programs. Whether you think I grok the
material or not is irrelevant.
I'm not the gloryhound you are so I don't really care
where Palermo ranks according the latest alt.net
internal polling. I was acknowledging merely his own
acknowledgement of a common perception of the situation.
As much as you seem to complain about it, you are a
major contributor to the echo chamber. Alt.Net is the
people in the community.
And here I am, still thinking that Alt.Net is just an
alternate to the main group of popular people.
You *need* to meet in person to convey the ideas?
"High-bandwidth interaction"? Jeez. I think that Alt.Net
is turning into an extreme cult of true believers
divorced from business reality.
Scott,
Sorry to jump in here with what may amount to a quick
flame, but the tone of your posts sounds more like a
religion than simply design methodologies. Maybe that
elitism is what is turning some off.
@John
Indeed Scott coming to your aid is somewhat like having
someone pour gasoline on you to try and put out the
fire.
For others ... Scott is not the voice of ALT.Net, he is
one voice that attaches himself to that label. Somewhat
like fervent lunatics attach themselves to well meaning
religions.
He has decided the Internet isn't a good enough
communication medium for him as he always comes across
badly - perhaps he should heed his own advice.
@Scott
Great reply, that was a blog entry in its own right! :)
One thing I do disagree with is the idea that the
discussion group is a 'drain pipe'. Given that people
interested in ALT.NET are from all round the world you
need something like an online forum. I will of course
continue to make the effort to come to ALT.NET
conferences, when I can, but for me the forum and blogs
are very useful.
So, some comments of my own to add.
I got asked by some of the guys to come to the first
ALT.NET conference. I have had the chance to sit and
enjoy BBQ and Mexican food with Scott, Palermo, and
others.
I have to agree with Scott on the high bandwidth thing.
When we discuss topics we are very passionate about, it
is very difficult to catch the nuances and ideals.
I have not been on the alt.net mailing lists, so I will
refrain from discussing that community specifically. But
it does seem that there are factions and fractions
around these topics whose passion is fascinating to me.
I never understand why people take such great offense to
Scott's comments (even if I do think they can feel
acidic at times), and at the same time, I wish I had the
passion of Scott and Palermo and Roy and Ayende and the
guys out there. I think that they are really trying to
make things better in a lot of ways.
BTW, 'John' is not me. Though I agree with him.
"You've come to believe that all ideas can be serialized
to text by all people. That's not the reality for all
ideas and all people."
While this is hilarious, it may also be true.
I attended Scott's presentation on BDD in Seattle at the
Alt.NET Open Spaces and it was very clear. Concise to
the point.
That being said, somehow people have been able to
discuss, oh, I don't know, the works of Plato, the
Bible, The Bridges of Madison County, etc. by reading
the texts and writing about them.
The idea that alt.NET can't be 'grokked' unless you talk
to someone in person is a f%^king joke.
Scott's inability to explain almost anything he talks
about in writing is legendary. So is his penchant for
questioning the integrity and ethics of ANYONE who
doesn't agree with him. Which is funny, given his own
ethical status.
He should go back to Twitter and stick to one-liners.
jdn
Elitism in its own right can often be a more subtle form
of duplicitous ethics, given that we grok together the
significance of achieving community which is much more
robust when serialized via human forms.
That said, I find myself questioning the veracity of the
arguments when alt.net has conceived such a conundrum as
we have discovered here.
Sorry...just had to say a bunch of words to make sure
you know I am smarter than you.
I personally like Typemock. In recent times, i read
around blog and heard from people that Typemock is too
powerful to go at wrong hands. But i think tools should
be such that even a little baby can play around it to
learn new things and thats where Typemock is good and
others are faling to do and making typemock look like
useless. Also, support of Typemock is more than that
other tools can even provide.
It's disappointing how quickly pragmatic solutions are
derided and discarded in favour of vague "principles."
It would seem to me that the more principled approach
would be to embrace pragmatic means and heuristics that
get things done effectively.
@Scott. So is it Twitter a higher bandwidth (and higher
availability, too :D) medium?